And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Bluesproverb]

If everyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's Book of eternal life suffer eternally in any place as already debated, what's that say about God foreordaining the suffering fate of those not in the LBoEL?

 

[Amanuensis]

Sure I read them sometimes. Not often though. I agree with most points by most Bible commentaries by authors of any standing. On the point of eternal torment, I disagree with all of them. Have you read any commentaries, aside from mine, by those who espouse conditional immortality? Perhaps a more neutral setting would be of benefit to you.

Debates aren’t exactly conducive to learning when each side are just trying to prove their point, but honestly I learn quite a bit. When I am challenged I think harder, dig deeper, and search more. I’ve considered your points and those of others here. They didn’t convince me.

OK, That's good. I am glad to hear that. Many do fall into the trap of thinking that their own ideas have more weight than the authors intended message and don't use every means at their disposal to discover the authors intended message.

If we keep doing that we will be on solid ground.

 

[Simona1988]

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. That means those in hell don’t get eternal life. So they’re dead right? Why does eternal life mean living forever, but then death doesn’t mean death to you?

We are running in circles, because you understand death as being anihilation, whereas the Church understands death as separation from Life. Life with capital L. Death is the state of being outside of God.

I don’t see there is a middle-ground or varying degrees. To me someone is either in Christ or they aren’t. They’re either forgiven or they aren’t.

There are varying degrees of the same faith. Jesus Christ revealed Himself on various degrees: He showed the Transfiguration only to Peter, Jacob and John. The Apostles didn't understand Jesus Christ in the same way (see for example the argument between Peter and Paul). Jesus Christ commended the faith of the bleeding woman, of the youngsters that brought their paralytical friend to Himself, in order to be healed, the faith of the thief, the faith of the centurion, yet, we can not say that they understood Jesus Christ the same way as did, the Saint Apostle John, for example, to whom was given the vision of the Apocalypse and who wrote the Revelations.

Jesus Christ says in John 14:2 that His Father's House has many rooms. That means that there are levels of getting closer to God: the closest person to God is, obviously, Saint Mary, who bore Him in her womb.

Jesus Christ also leaves his audience to understand that there are different levels of being far from God: there is the outside into the darkeness, there is also the abyssal distance between the rich man and Lazarus, a distance which can't be shortened.

I think the eternal torment crowd are honestly wrong about this. Trust me, I’ve been there. A couple years ago I was in the same boat as you, totally just going with the crowd on eternal torment. If someone told me I was wrong about it, I would have defended it like you’re doing now and I would have lost that discussion to dramatic effect, but I wouldn’t have accepted it until months later; my pride wouldn’t tolerate defeat.

This isn't about "pride which can't tolerate defeat". This is about believing one theological understanding over another; I have absolutely no reason to not believe in eternal torment since the Bible clearly speaks about it.

So maybe just take off the “eternal torment” glasses and try to re-read the Bible without that assumption.

I don't read the bible with a certain aspect on my mind: I try to get an integral understanding of it.
Those who favor a certain aspect over the whole are, in my opinion, heretics. Usually, these people only know that thing they obsess about: in some cases it's the respect of Saturday, over Sunday, in other cases it's about God's name being Jehovah, others obsess about the oneness of God, others about predestination, Arie (the famous heretic of the second century) obsessed about Jesus Christ being the first creation of God etc.

They all have in common a unilateral thinking, a mind incapable of understanding and receiving the paradoxe. They try to make available for their limited minds the realities and the mind of God.

 

[Runningman]

We are running in circles, because you understand death as being anihilation, whereas the Church understands death as separation from Life. Life with capital L. Death is the state of being outside of God.



There are varying degrees of the same faith. Jesus Christ revealed Himself on various degrees: He showed the Transfiguration only to Peter, Jacob and John. The Apostles didn't understand Jesus Christ in the same way (see for example the argument between Peter and Paul). Jesus Christ commended the faith of the bleeding woman, of the youngsters that brought their paralytical friend to Himself, in order to be healed, the faith of the thief, the faith of the centurion, yet, we can not say that they understood Jesus Christ the same way as did, the Saint Apostle John, for example, to whom was given the vision of the Apocalypse and who wrote the Revelations.

Jesus Christ says in John 14:2 that His Father's House has many rooms. That means that there are levels of getting closer to God: the closest person to God is, obviously, Saint Mary, who bore Him in her womb.

Jesus Christ also leaves his audience to understand that there are different levels of being far from God: there is the outside into the darkeness, there is also the abyssal distance between the rich man and Lazarus, a distance which can't be shortened.



This isn't about "pride which can't tolerate defeat". This is about believing one theological understanding over another; I have absolutely no reason to not believe in eternal torment since the Bible clearly speaks about it.



I don't read the bible with a certain aspect on my mind: I try to get an integral understanding of it.
Those who favor a certain aspect over the whole are, in my opinion, heretics. Usually, these people only know that thing they obsess about: in some cases it's the respect of Saturday, over Sunday, in other cases it's about God's name being Jehovah, others obsess about the oneness of God, others about predestination, Arie (the famous heretic of the second century) obsessed about Jesus Christ being the first creation of God etc.

They all have in common a unilateral thinking, a mind incapable of understanding and receiving the paradoxe. They try to make available for their limited minds the realities and the mind of God.

The soul and body being destroyed is biblical though.

Since you have your view and I have mine, I guess let’s respectfully agree to disagree.

But I’m curious, how do you explain these verses? Do you see this isn’t talking about physical death because quite frankly most people don’t get destroyed by fire in this life. Yet the Bible is promising that the wicked will burn up, disappear like smoke, be destroyed, and their soul will die forever. Again, and again, and again. Nothing about eternal torment here or anywhere with the same frequency as the wicked being destroyed.

That makes eternal torment a fringe doctrine despite there being most of the church who believe in it.

This is just the OT verses. So what do you say to all of the people who ask you what these verses mean?

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

 

[kleronomos]

it is logical

AKA, the wisdom of MAN, not what is written.
You admit it over and over again yet continue to defend the wisdom of man. FOR WHAT REASON?

But if you want to insist that the statement be repeated you must play by those same rules and admit that it does not say that those other occupants DO NOT suffer torment day and night forever.

I do ADMIT that is DOES NOT say it...and so IT ISN'T anything other than the WISDOM OF MAN THAT DOES. Hence going off the NARROW PATH of what GOD DOES SAY, to BRING IN 'what is logical', what MAN SAYS.

We can do this a billion times and it will always work out the same way. IT ISN'T WRITTEN. Without it being written, it is MANS WISDOM, mans conclusions that are being taught ABOVE what is actually written. WHY not just teach what is written and NOT WHAT ISN'T as though it should have been. IF GOD wanted us to teach that then THAT IS WHAT GOD WOULD HAVE WRITTEN. It's simple, it is narrow. Don't add, Don't subtract, Don't twist. Teach what is written. It is the ONLY WAY to fight the devil. It is the only way we can be ONE, as the Father and Son are ONE. WE all believe what is written and not what isn't.

You have to leave it at "they get cast into the Lake of Fire." The minute you say they do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have added to the text. Your rules.

I DO LEAVE IT AT THEY GET CAST into e Lake of Fire.


I leave it at Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Sometimes explaining the obvious exposes the belligerent and impetuous.

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[Simona1988]

Those who claim that hell is "anihilation" either try to win converts by appealing to their instinctual fear of death, or they try to give a "humanistic" face to hell, whom they perceive too cruel. Their reasoning goes something like this: it's too cruel to suffer eternally, it's more "human" to end the suffering of the unsaved through annihilation. God isn't cruel, like the "eternal torment crowd" portray Him.

Their perception comes from a deviated understanding of God, eternity and hell.

Traditional christianity claims that:

1. there is a God,
2. there is the kingdom which is to come and,
3. there is the possibility to be in communion with God or outside of this communion, depending on the choices you make during your earthly life.

It's not fear of hell, they try to instill in man, but fear of missing on God, on the beauties and goodies of the Kingdom which "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human mind has concieved".

 

[kleronomos]

Only Rev 20:14, and 15. which invalidates everything you said.

That's an awful lot of SCRIPTURE for you to be rendering 'invalid'.

 

[Simona1988]

To Runningman, who cherrypicked some biblical verses (from the Old Testament) to sustain his view and asked me how do I understand them.

I understand them in balance to the verses from the New Testament which talk about eternal suffering.
In the parable of the ten virgins, five are accepted into the kingdom, five are left outside. In the parable of the ten minas, the person that didn't produce nothing is thrown outside, into the darkness. In the parable of the prodigal son: the lost and found son is enjoying the feast, while the older brother is watching from outside, incapable of feeling joy.

edit: there is also the parable of the rich and the poor Lazarus. The rich is in suffering and he is still incapable of changing his unloving, arrogant attitude towards Lazarus, whom he treat like a servant. Lazarus, on the other hand, would have accomplished the rich man's desire, but wasn't allowed by Abraham, who said that the rich man enjoyed the goodies of the earthly world, now he is receiving what he deserves for having been selfish.

 

[kleronomos]

Those who claim that hell is "anihilation" either try to win converts by appealing to their instinctual fear of death, or they try to give a "humanistic" face to hell, whom they perceive too cruel. Their reasoning goes something like this: it's too cruel to suffer eternally, it's more "human" to end the suffering of the unsaved through annihilation. God isn't cruel, like the "eternal torment crowd" portray Him.

Their perception comes from a deviated understanding of God, eternity and hell.

Traditional christianity claims that:

1. there is a God,
2. there is the kingdom which is to come and,
3. there is the possibility to be in communion with God or outside of this communion, depending on the choices you make during your earthly life.

It's not fear of hell, they try to instill in man, but fear of missing on God, on the beauties and goodies of the Kingdom which "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human mind has concieved".

This has to do with what is written and what is NOT

and

what is taught LIKE 'it is written' , when it ISN'T.

 

[Simona1988]

It all boils down to this: what is more scary: to be tortured and/or destroyed, or to be separated from God?

A real christian should be able to say: give me hell, but don't separate me from my sweet Jesus Christ! And this was exaclty the attitude of the early martyrs who would rather die horrific deaths than deny their Lord.

 

[kleronomos]

To Runningman, who cherrypicked some biblical verses (from the Old Testament) to sustain his view and asked me how do I understand them.

I understand them in balance to the verses from the New Testament which talk about eternal suffering.
In the parable of the ten virgins, five are accepted into the kingdom, five are left outside. In the parable of the ten minas, the person that didn't produce nothing is thrown outside, into the darkness. In the parable of the prodigal son: the lost and found son is enjoying the feast, while the older brother is watching from outside, incapable of feeling joy.

edit: there is also the parable of the rich and the poor Lazarus. The rich is in suffering and he is still incapable of changing his unloving, arrogant attitude towards Lazarus, whom he treat like a servant. Lazarus, on the other hand, would have accomplished the rich man's desire, but wasn't allowed by Abraham, who said that the rich man enjoyed the goodies of the earthly world, now he is receiving what he deserves for having been selfish.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Will the 'the great whore' be destroyed or remain so her smoke can rise up forever and ever? Will 'she' also be around in the new heaven and new earth?


Philipians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Philipians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

John 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

John 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


What would be confusing? If perish didn't mean perish.

 

[kleronomos]

Psalm 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.

Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.











622. apollumi ►

Strong's Concordance

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.​

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.





Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.



Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:





Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Anyone seen those cities since that day? Any screaming or torment going on or is it just utter destruction and burnt up nothingness there?

THAT IS WHAT IS SET FORTH AS OUR EXAMPLE,

and

THAT LOOKS nothing like what MEN KEEP CLAIMING AS ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORTURE OF SOULS

 

[Jackson123]

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Those who are dead were resurrected and if they are not found in the book of life then they are sentenced to death.

It doesn’t say cease to exist, in contrary, it say the dead resurrected mean not cease to exist

 

[Simona1988]

Anyone seen those cities since that day? Any screaming or torment going on or is it just utter destruction and burnt up nothingness there?

Sodomah and Gomorah were destroyed by material fire. The fire in hell is of another nature and is, like you pointed out with biblical verses, everlasting.

 

[Runningman]

To Runningman, who cherrypicked some biblical verses (from the Old Testament) to sustain his view and asked me how do I understand them.

I wouldn’t say I’ve cherry picked any verses, it’s just that those are the only available verses from the Old Testament that speak of the ultimate fate of the wicked. There are no verses to the contrary of destruction as if by fire, burned to ashes, and smoke that disappears. The Bible is completely in harmony and I respected the context.

I understand them in balance to the verses from the New Testament which talk about eternal suffering.

The New Testament doesn’t support eternal suffering either. You’ll never find that phrase anywhere in the OT or NT applied to all u saved people.

In the parable of the ten virgins, five are accepted into the kingdom, five are left outside. In the parable of the ten minas, the person that didn't produce nothing is thrown outside, into the darkness. In the parable of the prodigal son: the lost and found son is enjoying the feast, while the older brother is watching from outside, incapable of feeling joy.

Know what each parable has in common? None of them say they have eternal torment.

edit: there is also the parable of the rich and the poor Lazarus. The rich is in suffering and he is still incapable of changing his unloving, arrogant attitude towards Lazarus, whom he treat like a servant. Lazarus, on the other hand, would have accomplished the rich man's desire, but wasn't allowed by Abraham, who said that the rich man enjoyed the goodies of the earthly world, now he is receiving what he deserves for having been selfish.

Doesn’t say the rich man was in eternal torments. That’s your unjustified assumption.

 

[Jackson123]

Those who claim that hell is "anihilation" either try to win converts by appealing to their instinctual fear of death, or they try to give a "humanistic" face to hell, whom they perceive too cruel. Their reasoning goes something like this: it's too cruel to suffer eternally, it's more "human" to end the suffering of the unsaved through annihilation. God isn't cruel, like the "eternal torment crowd" portray Him.

Their perception comes from a deviated understanding of God, eternity and hell.

Traditional christianity claims that:

1. there is a God,
2. there is the kingdom which is to come and,
3. there is the possibility to be in communion with God or outside of this communion, depending on the choices you make during your earthly life.

It's not fear of hell, they try to instill in man, but fear of missing on God, on the beauties and goodies of the Kingdom which "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human mind has concieved".

And if hell mean cease to exist, more drug user chose go to hell, one of my drug user neighbor kill himself
i talk to his mom, do you know why, she say “ his life is like hell(suffer)” so he think kill himself is avoid suffer, because hell mean cease to exist?

so this doctrine have vested interest, design by devil to invite more people to hell

 

[Simona1988]

I wouldn’t say I’ve cherry picked any verses, it’s just that those are the only available verses from the Old Testament that speak of the ultimate fate of the wicked.

I don't believe it speaks of the ultimate fate of the wicked. It is Jesus Christ who represents the biggest revelation of God, thus, we should look at what He has to say about the kingdom of God and the ultimate fate of the wicked.

There are no verses to the contrary of destruction as if by fire, burned to ashes, and smoke that disappears. The Bible is completely in harmony and I respected the context.

Why do you think the fire is "everlasting" if its purpose was to "burn to ashes and destroy"? Once it reached its purpose: tu burn to ashes, the fire too should cease. But it clearly doesn't. Why's that?

The New Testament doesn’t support eternal suffering either. You’ll never find that phrase anywhere in the OT or NT applied to all u saved people.

It does. The problem is that you understand eternity as "a very long period of time". I don't. I understand it as being outside of time. Outside of the possibility of change. Those in hell would want a new chance to live their lives differently, in faith in God, not in debauchery and egoism, but it's too late.

Know what each parable has in common? None of them say they have eternal torment.

From Matthew 25:28-30, the parable of the ten minas (or the ten bags of gold)

"So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one that has ten bags. For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

How do you understand the verses in bold? What are they about? Where or what is this "outside, into the darkness"?

Doesn’t say the rich man was in eternal torments. That’s your unjustified assumption.

What is this all about? Why did Jesus Christ tell this parable, about a nameless rich man and a poor named Lazarus?

 

[Simona1988]

And if hell mean cease to exist, more drug user chose go to hell, one of my drug user neighbor kill himself
i talk to his mom, do you know why, she say “ his life is like hell(suffer)” so he think kill himself is avoid suffer, because hell mean cease to exist?

so this doctrine have vested interest, design by devil to invite more people to hell

Interesting approach. There are also those who resort to "euthanasia". Clearly, people who don't believe in God and hell.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You’re quoting verses about immortal worms now. You really think there are worms that will never die in fire? Let me guess, worms have an immortal soul, but their body is destroyed?

You're a contortionist.

"those who rebelled against me" Are not worms. They are "those who rebelled against me"
That's a quote from God Almighty through The Prophet Isaiah. Jesus references the verse.

Worms and unquenchable fire are illustrative of things in the spirit realm.

 

[Mem]

I’m a Christian. I don’t belong to a denomination. Nor do I often listen to any preachers or read Bible commentaries. I just belong to God and read the Bible.

Good policy, iyam, as the Christian philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard once said, "the crowd is error.'