Dispensationalism...

[iamsoandso]

This is the tricky one and shows the supremacy of Holy Spirit revelation in the scriptures. Amillenials follow the Jewish understanding that our Lord's next coming is to consumate the world, they see the resurrection of the dead and the last judgement.

But Paul saw clearly the intermediate stage of the resurrection as shown in 1. Cor. 15. The Revelator also saw it in chapter 20. There is first to be the resurrection of the just, those who are Christ's at His coming or the first resurrection in Revs 20 ... blessed and happy are they who partake in the first resurrection.

Then comes the 1, 000 years "for He must first reign until all rule and powers and authorities are put under His feet" Then comes the end.

Paul understood it because only he had the revelation of the church planted among the nations, a thing unthinkable to the Jews. The church for them must always be centralised in Jerusalem.

The church being planted among the nations is what necessitates the removal of the church before God's wrath falls upon the nations.

So the Holy Spirit saw what the disciples did not see.

Even the very same Apostles and disciples in Matthew 24:3(except Judas he betrayed Jesus immediately after the O.D.) began to understand Jesus and the second coming in Acts chapters 1-3 but I'm asking about the time prior to that in Matthew 24,,, did they know about a second coming in Matthew 24? (your looking at Amill. teaching,Paul Revelation ect.) Anyway after they Received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 they did understand (I'm meaning Matthew 24:3 before they had) ...

 

[Evmur]

Even the very same Apostles and disciples in Matthew 24:3(except Judas he betrayed Jesus immediately after the O.D.) began to understand Jesus and the second coming in Acts chapters 1-3 but I'm asking about the time prior to that in Matthew 24,,, did they know about a second coming in Matthew 24? (your looking at Amill. teaching,Paul Revelation ect.) Anyway after they Received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 they did understand (I'm meaning Matthew 24:3 before they had) ...

I'm sure they believed that all would stand before God to be judged

 

[kaylagrl]

we went to the Ohio State fair with grandkids last night. Hottest day of the week. I had dogs and fries.. and a watered down diet coke..

"And a watered down diet coke," that sounds about right. lol But there is still something special about going to the fair. Hubby and I took out nephews one year and I took almost 100 pictures! They had a ball!! And it was blistering hot that day. Lots of great memories.

 

[kaylagrl]

Dogs and beans do not act as replies to the questions

Are you sure?! I heard they are really good for your heart.

 

[iamsoandso]

I'm sure they believed that all would stand before God to be judged

At that time in their lives(Matt.24:3) they thought just like they were raised in Jewish thinking that the Messiah was suppose to come and free Israel from the Gentile rule over them and that they would rule the whole earth from the very Temple Jesus had just said would be destroyed. So they were really curious as to how Jesus could say it would be destroyed and pointed right at the stones of the Temple and ask when that would happen,,,and about the signs they thought pertained to his coming to rule from the Temple and were thinking it must be in another age of time...

 

[Beckie]

Then comes the 1, 000 years "for He must first reign until all rule and powers and authorities are put under His feet" Then comes the end.

Book chapter and verse please ... I can not find this

 

[kaylagrl]

Is the Israel of today the same land that was of the promise?

History tells us it took much longer then a day :
The Zionism Movement
In the late 19th and early 20th century, an organized religious and political movement known as Zionism emerged among Jews.

Zionists wanted to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Massive numbers of Jews immigrated to the ancient holy land and built settlements. Between 1882 and 1903, about 35,000 Jews relocated to Palestine. Another 40,000 settled in the area between 1904 and 1914.

Many Jews living in Europe and elsewhere, fearing persecution during the Nazi reign, found refuge in Palestine and embraced Zionism. After the Holocaust and World War II ended, members of the Zionist movement primarily focused on creating an independent Jewish state.

Arabs in Palestine resisted the Zionism movement, and tensions between the two groups continue. An Arab nationalist movement developed as a result.

The answer, drum roll plz!! Ah, I know there were attempts at Israel becoming a nation, all of which failed. When the British Mandate ended on May 14, 1948, that night at mid-night, Israel was declared a nation. Therefore the nation that was born in a day, as the Bible says. What's your take on that?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"And a watered down diet coke," that sounds about right. lol But there is still something special about going to the fair. Hubby and I took out nephews one year and I took almost 100 pictures! They had a ball!! And it was blistering hot that day. Lots of great memories.

yep. would not have missed it for the world

 

[Beckie]

The answer, drum roll plz!! Ah, I know there were attempts at Israel becoming a nation, all of which failed. When the British Mandate ended on May 14, 1948, that night at mid-night, Israel was declared a nation. Therefore the nation that was born in a day, as the Bible says. What's your take on that?

where is the Scripture reference ?

 

[kaylagrl]

where is the Scripture reference ?

"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. " "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her.

 

[Beckie]

"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. " "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her.

Thanks i found it ..
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
I do not see Jerusalem as a man child

 

[kaylagrl]

Thanks i found it ..
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
I do not see Jerusalem as a man child

I do believe Israel is a fulfillment of prophesy. I will be back to discuss further. But what does that Scripture passage mean to you? In Isa that is. I've never heard it preached any other way.

 

[Jocund]

as long as the earth is here. how can forever end?

What contradiction? can you explain?

How can a promise be granted for unending possession for something that ends? I offered the possible solution of recognizing the fact that "forever" can be translated as "in perpetuity" instead of "unending". You might agree or disagree with that solution. You might have an entirely different way to address it. I'm looking for clarification.

and "if yuor correct" just because it can mean perpetual. does it mean it has to? What about ALL YOUR GENERATIONS??

Can you be more specific? Which passage(s) are you talking about that state "all your generations"? I dislike guessing

as for how long. Have you studied lev 26? What did God promise would happen if Israel sinned? then what did God promise would happen if they repented?

The gist of Lev 26 is basically that a remnant will be saved (not all will be destroyed), which ties in with Romans 9 and the fact that the saved remnant is in Christ. The language in Lev 26 reinforces the concept that God will never break a covenant but mankind will. Covenants are deals: tit for tat. A broken covenant is not required to be honoured. Promises are different.

Nothing in Lev 26 states that all of Israel will be saved, we see later in Rom 11 that all [true] Israel will be saved. That true Israel is in Christ, just like Paul.

You could look at Lev 26's "then accept of the punishment of their iniquity" in the same way that Job grew as a spiritual person, or in the way that Paul grew as a spiritual person.

You brought up Lev 26. What is your take on it?

 

[Jocund]

The israel today has not repented

Roman 11:25 states that only a part of Israel is blinded/unrepented. The other part of Israel includes Paul and Christ Himself.

Do the promises that you propose apply to Israel also then not apply to the unblinded part of Israel?

 

[Jocund]

Amillennials almost never quote Paul

That just isn't true.

[Amillennials] avoid the rapture like it was a rash

Primarily because "rapture" is a new-age concept and isn't necessary. Especially rapture in the sense of being physically removed from a dangerous location prior to the coming of Christ.

The Israelites weren't raptured out of Egypt when the angel of death came by. They covered their doorways with the blood of the lamb and were protected.

"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death..."

Etc.

Rapture is not a necessary interpretation.

 

[Beckie]

I do believe Israel is a fulfillment of prophesy. I will be back to discuss further. But what does that Scripture passage mean to you? In Isa that is. I've never heard it preached any other way.

Well i do not believe Israel is a fulfillment of prophesy. I too was taught and believed it to be so for many years. Todays Israel is not the land promised to Abraham. The land size alone tells me it is not a fulfillment . The land size is not even close. You tell your child i will give you a dollar, you give him 50 cents did you fulfill your word?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
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Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

#7. I see as the birth live death resurrection of Christ . Before the "pain' of the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 AD. Verse 6 speaks of a voice from the temple . At the death of Jesus God opened the temple

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
within that generation Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. God had it destroyed He used the Roman armies . Not unlike the Jewish leaders using the Romans to put Jesus to the Cross.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How can a promise be granted for unending possession for something that ends?

Well when the something ends. there is a new heaven and new earth. and also a new jerusalem. It is still valid, it is just in a different place,.

You have yet to explain how something eternal can end when the thing is still here

I offered the possible solution of recognizing the fact that "forever" can be translated as "in perpetuity" instead of "unending". You might agree or disagree with that solution. You might have an entirely different way to address it. I'm looking for clarification.

Yes, thats possible. but we have to research that. When we look at OT prophecy which shows Israel will repent after the events of AD 70. how they will be restored. and lev 26 which says even after they are totally removed from th eland. If they repent, God will remember his promise.

So in lew of this. That explanation must be rejected.

Can you be more specific? Which passage(s) are you talking about that state "all your generations"? I dislike guessing

Gen 17: And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

The gist of Lev 26 is basically that a remnant will be saved (not all will be destroyed), which ties in with Romans 9 and the fact that the saved remnant is in Christ. The language in Lev 26 reinforces the concept that God will never break a covenant but mankind will. Covenants are deals: tit for tat. A broken covenant is not required to be honoured. Promises are different.

Nothing in Lev 26 states that all of Israel will be saved, we see later in Rom 11 that all [true] Israel will be saved. That true Israel is in Christ, just like Paul.

Lev 26 was given to the nation of Isreal. Including all the punishments for disobedience. Your gist is incorrect.

Gods covenant was not a if yu do this, I will do that. It was an I WILL covenant. God said I WILL. or I GIVE this to you

as for Romans 11. All isreal is all Israel. Isreal is in contrast to saved gentiles Saved gentiles is not part of all isreal.

You could look at Lev 26's "then accept of the punishment of their iniquity" in the same way that Job grew as a spiritual person, or in the way that Paul grew as a spiritual person.

You brought up Lev 26. What is your take on it?

My take is Jeremiah prophesied Judah will be captured by babylon, and for 70 weeks.. the land will rest.

In dan 9, He prayed concerning this and confessed his sins and his peoples sin, and said God did what he promised and begs him to forgive.

Gods answer was 70 weeks..

at the end of that 70 weeks. All isreal will be saved,

because they will repent. and God will restor them, as Lev 26 says he will

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Roman 11:25 states that only a part of Israel is blinded/unrepented. The other part of Israel includes Paul and Christ Himself.

Do the promises that you propose apply to Israel also then not apply to the unblinded part of Israel?

no sir

Israel is blinded in part. and they will remain blind until the time of the gentile is completed.

And then the redeemer will come, and all Israel will repent, and be saved.

Gentiles are not a part. Paul warned us as gentile believers not to be proud..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Dispensationalism is used by many to form a doctrine that is not in the Bible.
By creating different times and saying that God used different means to save, it creates whole doctrines that are not biblical.
All are saved by the blood of Christ from Adam to the end of this world.
The bible starts with "obey and live, or disobey and die".
And ends with the same principle.
Thank God for grace which is given to save us from ourselves.

Gen 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Adam, Abraham and Moses all needed Gods grace but were all told to obey.

The same principles apply today.

so we’ll said faith is t an excuse or reason not to hear and obey hearing and obeying is evidence of faith I just wanted to leave some scriptures to support one example of what your saying there for instance Noah was saved by grace through faith

first Noah received grace this is why he was spared

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And he was saved by faith hearing and believing what God had just told him “ the world is going to perish in a flood build an ark and I’ll start over with you “

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;…..

Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By grace and through faith we know this because the new testament tells us when it teaches us of saving faith

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

grace is why Jesus came and died for sinners sins , faith is to hear his word and actually believe his word this is always and forever going to lead us into obeying the gospel because God is not a negligent father and doesn’t want us to perish

it’s really a terrible deception when we try to make grace the reason we don’t need to hear and obey Gods word or why the rest of the New Testament simply doesn’t apply to Christian’s but it’s really popular for sinners to say “ I’m saved I don’t need to do anything God said now I have faith “

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭

I loved your post

 

[Jocund]

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." - Rev 12:5 KJV

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords." - Rev 19:13-16 KJV

Isa 66's man child lines up with Rev 12's man child, which is Christ per Rev 19.