And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

More early church writers believed that the scriptures clearly described eternal torment than the ones that did not. And these early writers that might have thought of something similar to annihilation were not the consensus of the majority of the Church.

It is a true statement that annihilationism has never been the majority view of the bible believing Church and this can easily be discovered by research.

That’s corruption in the church, which is rampant today, because the Bible doesn’t teach eternal torment for all unsaved. You’ve been shown all the proof in the world, but if you don’t want to see it then you won’t. However, I’m charging forward and I include death and destruction of the wicked every time I evangelize and preach the gospel.

Your verses don’t even say what you say they do. Smoke rising forever, eternal fire, immortal worms. “See! That’s eternal punishment!” Listen to yourself. There’s more evidence that the worms live forever in hell.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That’s what I thought. Cherry pick whatever confirms your narrative and ignore the plethora of proof to the contrary.

Cherry pick.

Shows evidence that your claim is false. You have neither The Bible nor church history as back up for your claim.
You must be well aware that it would be excessive to post hundreds of pages of script on a chat-room message board.

 

[Runningman]

Cherry pick.

Shows evidence that your claim is false. You have neither The Bible nor church history as back up for your claim.
You must be well aware that it would be excessive to post hundreds of pages of script on a chat-room message board.

You won’t accept the Bible so why would you accept church history? You only talk about what you believe supports eternal torment for all unsaved people.

There is a lot proof from church history that they believed in and taught conditional immortality. Maybe if I think it’s helpful I’ll post them.

From what I can tell, the eternal torment doctrine was invented to scare people into coming to church. There are people who go to church, believe in God, etc for no other reason than they are afraid of the punishment they believe they’ll receive.

These people don’t know God nor can they under this false pretense. If you had the ability to hear from God and He told you there is no eternal torment for the unsaved, you wouldn’t believe Him. You would no doubt believe someone was trying to deceive you.

That’s the problem the church has now and it’s the same problem the religious establishment had when Jesus came. They can’t handle the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your verses don’t even say what you say they do. Smoke rising forever, eternal fire, immortal worms. “See! That’s eternal punishment!” Listen to yourself. There’s more evidence that the worms live forever in hell.

But there IS a verse that specifically mentions "eternal punishment". Why don't you acknowledge that?

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thess 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

But there IS a verse that specifically mentions "eternal punishment". Why don't you acknowledge that?

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thess 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

If the punishment was a one-off ending of all sentience there would be no need to call it eternal would there?
Likewise if destruction of the soul was an ending of cognizance it wouldn't need to be prefixed with 'eternal'

Kick the ball.
Kick the ball endlessly.

Punishment
Eternal punishment

Destruction
Eternal destruction

It really isn't difficult to understand.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You won’t accept the Bible so why would you accept church history? You only talk about what you believe supports eternal torment for all unsaved people.

There is a lot proof from church history that they believed in and taught conditional immortality. Maybe if I think it’s helpful I’ll post them.

From what I can tell, the eternal torment doctrine was invented to scare people into coming to church. There are people who go to church, believe in God, etc for no other reason than they are afraid of the punishment they believe they’ll receive.

These people don’t know God nor can they under this false pretense. If you had the ability to hear from God and He told you there is no eternal torment for the unsaved, you wouldn’t believe Him. You would no doubt believe someone was trying to deceive you.

That’s the problem the church has now and it’s the same problem the religious establishment had when Jesus came. They can’t handle the truth.

Does God refuse people the gift of his salvation if they are afraid when they ask for it? Are they any less saved for it?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
~Prov 9:10

"Jesus Saves" is only a partial gospel. You should be prepared to tell people what they are saved from if they ask.
You don't have a monopoly on truth. When it comes to this particular subject, you are more concerned with presenting
God as a nice guy than you are with truth.

 

[Runningman]

Does God refuse people the gift of his salvation if they are afraid when they ask for it? Are they any less saved for it?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
~Prov 9:10

"Jesus Saves" is only a partial gospel. You should be prepared to tell people what they are saved from if they ask.
You don't have a monopoly on truth. When it comes to this particular subject, you are more concerned with presenting
God as a nice guy than you are with truth.

The only time the New Testament says to fear God in the context of hell is because He can destroy both the soul and the body there.

Matthew 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Or to fear Him who will consume (not eternally torment) His adversaries:

Hebrews 10:27
27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.

The gospel of Christ isn’t a gospel of fear of eternal torment. Jesus never said there was any other reason to fear God. The New Testament approach to the gospel is that God doesn’t want us to have a spirit of fear, but rather a spirit of love.

2 Timothy 1:7
7For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control.

Those who are God’s adopted children have nothing to fear. Those who are not God’s should fear the fire that will consume them, thus destroying their soul and body.

The Proverbs 9:10 verse is about fear in the sense of moral reverence, not frightened. As far as fearing God in the context of hell, the Old Testament and New Testament are in total agreement that the unsaved are destroyed.

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

My final question to you, answer if you wish. Do you still think permanent death and destruction of the wicked is some creepy fringe cult doctrine?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

^
I've never tried burning thoughts, memories and emotions with fire but Yes. I still reject the deception
that incorporeal souls are made of matter & can die in exactly the same way as a physical body.

 

[Runningman]

^
I've never tried burning thoughts, memories and emotions with fire but Yes. I still reject the deception
that incorporeal souls are made of matter & can die in exactly the same way as a physical body.

^
I will leave you to your preferred doctrine then.

 

[Jackson123]

^
I will leave you to your preferred doctrine then.

if you want Jesus doctrine about hell, don’t forget to read Luke 16

the rich man and poor Lazarus both die, Lazarus go to Abraham’s bosom rich man go to hell

did rich man disappear?

big no, He ask Abraham to send Lazarus bring drinking water to the rich man

the rich man suffer in hell

 

[kleronomos]

Are you really saying that because John did not repeat the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" every time he mentioned occupants being thrown in the Lake of Fire as he did when he mentioned the devil, beast and false prophet, that this means that they do not suffer the same thing when they get thrown into the Lake of Fire?

YES, that is exactly what I am saying.


THE PATH IS NARROW. What is written is TRUTH. What isn't, isn't.

SO

What is it we can KNOW AND CAN TEACH?

They go into the lake of fire.

Can we teach anything OTHER THAN THAT?

No, we can not.

WHY NOT?

Because it isn't written, IT IS CONJECTURE, and every time ANY MAN brings CONJECTURE into the words of GOD,

the narrow path is made WIDER. Cant say 'more truth' is found because the ONLY TRUTH we can depend on is what is written. IT IS ALL we have that is PURE. WE are NOT ALLOWED to ADD nor subtract nor twist nor teach DOCTRINES that we don't find taught in the words of GOD. Every single time someone does, it CREATES A FALSE FOUNDATION for someone else to come along and build on. Hence the divisions in the Body of Christ.

When none of what is written is taken as truth and it all becomes 'HATH GOD SAID' and/or 'what it really means' we are all in trouble.


So, again, yes, I believe GOD IS MOST SPECIFIC and is most specific FOR A REASON. IF everyone took what is written as GODS HONEST TRUTH, there would be NO DIVISION. ALL division come FROM MANS WISDOM being place ABOVE what is written, to explain that what hasn't been given, rendering what would have been given no place to go.


IF GOD TRUTH was that souls would be in conscious torment forever in the LOF, that is exactly what God would have had written. If INDEED, the souls that rejected God went into the LOF and were consumed and their smoke went up, that is what God would have had written, and He did.


Death of a BODY AND SOUL is ceasing to exist, not living on in anyway.


Can there be souls burning FOREVER in the lake of fire be a TRUTH and these words remain true?

Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

[kleronomos]

if you want Jesus doctrine about hell, don’t forget to read Luke 16

the rich man and poor Lazarus both die, Lazarus go to Abraham’s bosom rich man go to hell

did rich man disappear?

big no, He ask Abraham to send Lazarus bring drinking water to the rich man

the rich man suffer in hell

Was that before or after the OLD COVENANT WAS REPLACED by the NEW COVENANT?

 

[Runningman]

if you want Jesus doctrine about hell, don’t forget to read Luke 16

the rich man and poor Lazarus both die, Lazarus go to Abraham’s bosom rich man go to hell

did rich man disappear?

big no, He ask Abraham to send Lazarus bring drinking water to the rich man

the rich man suffer in hell

That’s a parable from my perspective, however even if it is literal it doesn’t say the rich man had eternal torment.

 

[Runningman]

In the Bible it’s necessary to factor in that there is such a thing as a resurrection to judgement and a resurrection to eternal life. For those resurrected to judgement, it is followed by a second death per Revelation 20.

For those resurrected to eternal life it is diametrically opposed to death. In other words, they will never die [again].

Eternal punishment is death. Death isn’t eternal concious torment somehow continuing to live. Eternal life is eternal conscious life. It’s quite simple and meant to be easy to understand, but the church has turned definitions on their head.

Eternal destruction is being eternally destroyed. It isn’t being destroyed then recreated and destroyed again. Those who are eternally destroyed are separated from the power of God so there is no being destroyed, resurrected again, then destroyed for all eternity. Thats another false doctrine in the church.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That’s all Bible. Blessed are those who see.

 

[Jackson123]

Was that before or after the OLD COVENANT WAS REPLACED by the NEW COVENANT?

It is after John the baptist when Jesus tell story

 

[Jackson123]

That’s a parable from my perspective, however even if it is literal it doesn’t say the rich man had eternal torment.

But it say that the rich man suffer not cast into fire then die
matt 25:46 say so

 

[Runningman]

But it say that the rich man suffer not cast into fire then die
matt 25:46 say so

It doesn’t say it’s eternal. You’re saying the rich man is an example of eternal torment? I’m just showing you that what you’re saying isn’t in the Bible, but you’re free to believe anything you wish. Just some casual Bible discussion here.

 

[Jackson123]

It doesn’t say it’s eternal. You’re saying the rich man is an example of eternal torment? I’m just showing you that what you’re saying isn’t in the Bible, but you’re free to believe anything you wish. Just some casual Bible discussion here.

It doesn’t say cast into fire than disappear so wha5 you say is not in the bibke, the rich suffer need a drop of water from Lazarus finger

 

[FreeGrace2]

That’s a parable from my perspective, however even if it is literal it doesn’t say the rich man had eternal torment.

The account about Lazarus and the rich man was a glimpse of what happens after physical death in the OT. Believers went to Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, and unbelievers went to torments.

After Jesus' resurrection, He went to hell (Hades) and took all believers with Him to heaven, leaving all the unbelievers in torment. At the GWT judgment, "death and Hades" will be thrown into the LOF.

So Hades is a holding tank for all unbelievers, before they appear before the GWT.

 

[Snacks]

That’s a parable from my perspective, however even if it is literal it doesn’t say the rich man had eternal torment.

IMO eternal torment is implied otherwise Christ would have stated the rich man received relief when . . . (pick your variable).