And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

So, all the words said, and NOT ONE PERSON could bring forth anything written that souls receive eternal life in torment, and it is just as written, they just have their part in the Lake of Fire, the Lake being eternal, their smoke going up and away...

Your premise is phony. Of course there are no verses that people "receive eternal life in torment" simply BECAUSE it isn't "eternal life".

It is the opposite, eternal DEATH. But that would remove your only argument.

The Bible plainly calls the LOF as the second DEATH. Unbelievers will be tormented in a state of DEATH "day and night, for ever and ever".

No one argues that there will be any kind of eternal life in the LOF.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

So, all the words said, and NOT ONE PERSON could bring forth anything written that souls receive eternal life in torment, and it is just as written, they just have their part in the Lake of Fire, the Lake being eternal, their smoke going up and away...

Thank you all. I just wanted to be sure it WASN'T written somewhere and I had missed it. I can now rest easy knowing it is as simple as it is written, GOD wasn't writing one thing while meaning another, wasn't trying to trip anyone up with words like PERISH, DESTRUCTION, DEATH but not meaning them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eternity in torment isn't eternal life in torment.

 

[Amanuensis]

So, all the words said, and NOT ONE PERSON could bring forth anything written that souls receive eternal life in torment, and it is just as written, they just have their part in the Lake of Fire, the Lake being eternal, their smoke going up and away...

Thank you all. I just wanted to be sure it WASN'T written somewhere and I had missed it. I can now rest easy knowing it is as simple as it is written, GOD wasn't writing one thing while meaning another, wasn't trying to trip anyone up with words like PERISH, DESTRUCTION, DEATH but not meaning them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I have a different opinion of what happened in this thread.

Plenty of people presented scriptures about souls having eternal torment. And eternal torment and punishment won the debate once again.

There were many scriptures given and sound hermeneutics that exposed annihilationism as faulty, illogical, and illegal wrangling of Greek and English words and sentence structure in a vain attempt to reject eternal torment and adapt a false teaching of annihilationist but in the end you and those that support annihilationalism lost the debate as they have every single time it has been presented on CC through the years.

It is not that people did not give you scriptures and disprove your theory. It is more like you are pretending that they did not. You rejected those scriptures and answers and the interpretations that were presented and decided to cling to a view that makes no sense to most people. The idea of the smoke of their torment ascending forever where the torment ended and there is no torment involved. No one buys that but those who are trying to force the statement to mean something the author did not intend.

2 Thess. 1:9), “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” Those who argue that the wicked will suffer for a while and then be annihilated point to the word “destruction.” But the word does not mean that the wicked will cease to exist. If that were the punishment, the penalty of being away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power would be nullified, since they would not be conscious of it. It refers to total ruin.

Everyone who agrees with my summary of this thread can give me a trophy.

 

[kleronomos]

I have a different opinion of what happened in this thread.

Plenty of people presented scriptures about souls having eternal torment. And eternal torment and punishment won the debate once again.

There were many scriptures given and sound hermeneutics that exposed annihilationism as faulty, illogical, and illegal wrangling of Greek and English words and sentence structure in a vain attempt to reject eternal torment and adapt a false teaching of annihilationist but in the end you and those that support annihilationalism lost the debate as they have every single time it has been presented on CC through the years.

It is not that people did not give you scriptures and disprove your theory. It is more like you are pretending that they did not. You rejected those scriptures and answers and the interpretations that were presented and decided to cling to a view that makes no sense to most people. The idea of the smoke of their torment ascending forever where the torment ended and there is no torment involved. No one buys that but those who are trying to force the statement to mean something the author did not intend.

2 Thess. 1:9), “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” Those who argue that the wicked will suffer for a while and then be annihilated point to the word “destruction.” But the word does not mean that the wicked will cease to exist. If that were the punishment, the penalty of being away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power would be nullified, since they would not be conscious of it. It refers to total ruin.

Everyone who agrees with my summary of this thread can give me a trophy.

AGAIN<

THE WISDOM OF MAN OVER WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN IS WHAT YOU CHOOSE. I WILL CONTINUE TO SHOW THAT IT IS NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME BY GOD IN THE WORDS OF GOD.

YOU MAKE IT SOUND SO VERY WISE WITH ALL YOUR TEACHINGS OF MAN - HENCE THE LACK OF BEING ABLE TO SEE THE SPIRITUAL MEANING.

THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD

 

[kleronomos]

I have a different opinion of what happened in this thread.

Plenty of people presented scriptures about souls having eternal torment. And eternal torment and punishment won the debate once again.

There were many scriptures given and sound hermeneutics that exposed annihilationism as faulty, illogical, and illegal wrangling of Greek and English words and sentence structure in a vain attempt to reject eternal torment and adapt a false teaching of annihilationist but in the end you and those that support annihilationalism lost the debate as they have every single time it has been presented on CC through the years.

It is not that people did not give you scriptures and disprove your theory. It is more like you are pretending that they did not. You rejected those scriptures and answers and the interpretations that were presented and decided to cling to a view that makes no sense to most people. The idea of the smoke of their torment ascending forever where the torment ended and there is no torment involved. No one buys that but those who are trying to force the statement to mean something the author did not intend.

2 Thess. 1:9), “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” Those who argue that the wicked will suffer for a while and then be annihilated point to the word “destruction.” But the word does not mean that the wicked will cease to exist. If that were the punishment, the penalty of being away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power would be nullified, since they would not be conscious of it. It refers to total ruin.

Everyone who agrees with my summary of this thread can give me a trophy.

Yes indeed, the glory of man set perfectly on display.

 

[Magenta]

Just think: all those people who received a death sentence and were put to death as punishment for their
crimes against humanity were in fact not punished at all because they no longer exist to experience the
effects of their punishment. Who knew the justice system - and God - has had it so wrong for so long?

Shall we alert the media?

 

[kleronomos]

Your premise is phony. Of course there are no verses that people "receive eternal life in torment" simply BECAUSE it isn't "eternal life".

It is the opposite, eternal DEATH. But that would remove your only argument.

The Bible plainly calls the LOF as the second DEATH. Unbelievers will be tormented in a state of DEATH "day and night, for ever and ever".

No one argues that there will be any kind of eternal life in the LOF.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE KEEP GOING SO what IS NOT WRITTEN can be brought out into the LIGHT. For far too long the words of this preacher or that preacher have been taken as the gospel truth when in fact it is NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

I LOVE POINTING OUT WHAT IS NOT WRITTEN

AND

HOW MAN IS PUTTING HIS WISDOM OVER WHAT IS WRITTEN AND EXACTLY HOW HE GOES ABOUT DOING SO.

What would make a NARROW PATH wide? This man saying it means that and that man saying it means this. WE can only have a narrow path when EVERYONE believes WHAT IS WRITTEN AND NOT HATH GOD SAID?. That is all we can count on.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

NOT EVERY THOUGHT OR CONCLUSION OR REASONING OR ASSUMPTION THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF MEN.


I pointed out what is written and what isn't and why I believe what is.


You pointed out all the reasons you don't BELIEVE God wrote what God meant.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


The verses tell us that:

The dead were were standing before the throne.

The sea gave up the dead, death & the grave gave up the dead

The lake of fire is the second death



Now if death must mean annihilation, try making it fit in these verses.

The dead annihilated were standing before the throne

The sea gave up the dead annihilated, death & the grave gave up the dead annihilated

The lake of fire is the second death annihilation


It remains that soul/spirit death doesn't share the exact characteristics of a physical death.

 

[Amanuensis]

Just think: all those people who received a death sentence and were put to death as punishment for their
crimes against humanity were in fact not punished at all because they no longer exist to experience the
effects of their punishment. Who knew the justice system - and God - has had it so wrong for so long?

Shall we alert the media?

They were punished by man and that punishment had an end. But that death sentence was not eternal punishment. No one ever said in the sentencing that they were to be eternally punished with execution. That does not make sense and not how we use the word in English. From the perspective of the Law and the natural mind of men in the context of the legal system and not in the context of God or the bible we say that the punishment was execution. That was carried out and we don't say that the dead criminal is being eternally punished with execution. No one in the English speaking world talks like that. The only one who talks like that is someone trying desperately to change the plain meaning of the author who intended eternal punishment when he wrote the words.

The only way a criminal could suffer eternal punishment of the execution would be to be executed over and over again for eternity.
Otherwise he suffered the punishment of execution but you can't say he suffered eternal punishment of execution unless you are referring to something that happens to his soul after death that he is aware of suffering, eternally.

The only one who can give them eternal punishment is God. And of course we know that according to the scriptures he does. Those who suffer eternal punishment are aware of it. Eternally. It has no end. They are always experiencing the punishment. That is why it is called punishment. And that is why it is called eternal. It's really rather simple as to the main point of the biblical terminology.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I have a different opinion of what happened in this thread.

Plenty of people presented scriptures about souls having eternal torment. And eternal torment and punishment won the debate once again.

There were many scriptures given and sound hermeneutics that exposed annihilationism as faulty, illogical, and illegal wrangling of Greek and English words and sentence structure in a vain attempt to reject eternal torment and adapt a false teaching of annihilationist but in the end you and those that support annihilationalism lost the debate as they have every single time it has been presented on CC through the years.

It is not that people did not give you scriptures and disprove your theory. It is more like you are pretending that they did not. You rejected those scriptures and answers and the interpretations that were presented and decided to cling to a view that makes no sense to most people. The idea of the smoke of their torment ascending forever where the torment ended and there is no torment involved. No one buys that but those who are trying to force the statement to mean something the author did not intend.

2 Thess. 1:9), “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” Those who argue that the wicked will suffer for a while and then be annihilated point to the word “destruction.” But the word does not mean that the wicked will cease to exist. If that were the punishment, the penalty of being away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power would be nullified, since they would not be conscious of it. It refers to total ruin.

Everyone who agrees with my summary of this thread can give me a trophy.

 

[Amanuensis]

Just think: all those people who received a death sentence and were put to death as punishment for their
crimes against humanity were in fact not punished at all because they no longer exist to experience the
effects of their punishment. Who knew the justice system - and God - has had it so wrong for so long?

Shall we alert the media?

Matthew 25:46

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

[Magenta]

The only one who can give them eternal punishment is God. And of course we know that according to the scriptures he does. Those who suffer eternal punishment are aware of it. Eternally. It has no end. They are always experiencing the punishment. That is why it is called punishment. And that is why it is called eternal. It's really rather simple as to the main point of the biblical terminology.

I guess in your theology, God did not mean it when He said He was making all things new.

The new heavens and earth will have leftovers from the earlier creation in some corner,
perhaps, a fiery furnace for the ongoing punishment and endless torment of the wicked?

Rhetorical question, really. A plethora of Scriptures articulate that the wicked are destroyed and
are no more but many will claim that isn't what Scripture means when that is exactly what it says.

 

[Runningman]

The eternal torment crowd has nothing important to contribute to this discussion. The church as a whole must repent.

 

[Amanuensis]

I guess in your theology, God did not mean it when He said He was making all things new.

The new heavens and earth will have leftovers from the earlier creation in some corner,
perhaps, a fiery furnace for the ongoing punishment and endless torment of the wicked?

Rhetorical question, really. A plethora of Scriptures articulate that the wicked are destroyed and
are no more but many will claim that isn't what Scripture means when that is exactly what it says.

I think you are open to changing your mind when you are certain you have the correct interpretation and so I am not going to push it but I will just say that if you look up all those references to destroy and destruction there are plenty of them that refer to ruin, as in a sorry state of affairs after coming under judgment and nothing to do with annihilation of souls or the reality that souls are punished forever. This is a destruction that has come upon them that they are suffering. An everlasting punishment, an everlasting destruction. The argument that destruction requires an end of souls is not supported in scripture or even in the definition of the word.

As to the New Earth. I am one of those who believes that the present earth is dissolved at the atomic level and the new earth which has no sun or moon will not be the same one and there will be no archaeological remnants of the old one which will have been dissolved and be no more. That the old earth is annihiliated I agree. Not that souls are.

I know that some believe that this earth will just be "burned over" but still the same and rebuilt on. I do not. I believe that the New Earth will be of what one might call a "heavenly" nature, not according to the law of physics that we deal with in this one. The idea of heaven being our hope found in scripture is not a contradiction that we will dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem that comes down out of heave (which we are actually going to be in when it comes down) and that this New Earth is of a heavenly order of things not of this universe which I believe is destroyed when the heavens(natural space and universe) are destroyed.

It's not really worth arguing over. I understand why people think it is like this earth burned over, because of the OT prophesies, but the NT seems to give further revelation and what Peter said about the elements dissolving leads me to side on the annihilation of this earth and the universe as well, and the New Earth being spiritual.

 

[Runningman]

I think you are open to changing your mind when you are certain you have the correct interpretation and so I am not going to push it but I will just say that if you look up all those references to destroy and destruction there are plenty of them that refer to ruin, as in a sorry state of affairs after coming under judgment and nothing to do with annihilation of souls or the reality that souls are punished forever. This is a destruction that has come upon them that they are suffering. An everlasting punishment, an everlasting destruction. The argument that destruction requires an end of souls is not supported in scripture or even in the definition of the word.

As to the New Earth. I am one of those who believes that the present earth is dissolved at the atomic level and the new earth which has no sun or moon will not be the same one and there will be no archaeological remnants of the old one which will have been dissolved and be no more. That the old earth is annihiliated I agree. Not that souls are.

I know that some believe that this earth will just be "burned over" but still the same and rebuilt on. I do not. I believe that the New Earth will be of what one might call a "heavenly" nature, not according to the law of physics that we deal with in this one. The idea of heaven being our hope found in scripture is not a contradiction that we will dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem that comes down out of heave (which we are actually going to be in when it comes down) and that this New Earth is of a heavenly order of things not of this universe which I believe is destroyed when the heavens(natural space and universe) are destroyed.

It's not really worth arguing over. I understand why people think it is like this earth burned over, because of the OT prophesies, but the NT seems to give further revelation and what Peter said about the elements dissolving leads me to side on the annihilation of this earth and the universe as well, and the New Earth being spiritual.

You have eternal torment eye glasses on. Take them off first then look at them again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE KEEP GOING SO what IS NOT WRITTEN can be brought out into the LIGHT. For far too long the words of this preacher or that preacher have been taken as the gospel truth when in fact it is NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

I LOVE POINTING OUT WHAT IS NOT WRITTEN

The Scriptures are very clear. But you are free to believe whatever you want.

Unfortunately for you, you early on showed your hand about your own opinion about eternal torment. You couldn't believe that God would do such a thing to any of His creatures. And so, you have based your whole notion on what you THINK about what God thinks about eternal torment. Your flaw was to bring your own emotions into the discussion.

I pointed out what is written and what isn't and why I believe what is.

You failed to provide any kind of rational explanation of how a person who no longer exists can be punished. All you could muster was that their eternal non-existence is their punishment, as if they could even experience that.

You pointed out all the reasons you don't BELIEVE God wrote what God meant.

No, I pointed out all the reasons I believe that every unbeliever will suffer the same fate as the beast, FP and the devil himself. And every reason comes from the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

I think you are open to changing your mind when you are certain you have the correct interpretation and so I am not going to push it but I will just say that if you look up all those references to destroy and destruction there are plenty of them that refer to ruin, as in a sorry state of affairs after coming under judgment and nothing to do with annihilation of souls or the reality that souls are punished forever. This is a destruction that has come upon them that they are suffering. An everlasting punishment, an everlasting destruction. The argument that destruction requires an end of souls is not supported in scripture or even in the definition of the word.

As to the New Earth. I am one of those who believes that the present earth is dissolved at the atomic level and the new earth which has no sun or moon will not be the same one and there will be no archaeological remnants of the old one which will have been dissolved and be no more. That the old earth is annihiliated I agree. Not that souls are.

I know that some believe that this earth will just be "burned over" but still the same and rebuilt on. I do not. I believe that the New Earth will be of what one might call a "heavenly" nature, not according to the law of physics that we deal with in this one. The idea of heaven being our hope found in scripture is not a contradiction that we will dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem that comes down out of heave (which we are actually going to be in when it comes down) and that this New Earth is of a heavenly order of things not of this universe which I believe is destroyed when the heavens(natural space and universe) are destroyed.

It's not really worth arguing over. I understand why people think it is like this earth burned over, because of the OT prophesies, but the NT seems to give further revelation and what Peter said about the elements dissolving leads me to side on the annihilation of this earth and the universe as well, and the New Earth being spiritual.

You referred to Peter but misrepresented him.

2 Peter 3:13
13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

In the new heavens and new earth there is only righteousness. There will not be unrighteous people to exist. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire per Revelation 20 to experience a second death. There is no more unrighteousness in the New Heaven and New Earth.

You have unrighteous people still lingering around somewhere being unrighteous. Apostle Peter disagrees with you. I believe Peter and not you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess in your theology, God did not mean it when He said He was making all things new.

Don't you understand the context for this statement? It doesn't involve any unbelievers. The verse is Rev 21:5. When do ALL unbelievers receive their ultimate fate? Rev 20:15.

The new heavens and earth will have leftovers from the earlier creation in some corner,
perhaps, a fiery furnace for the ongoing punishment and endless torment of the wicked?

Huh? Are you just fantasizing here, or what? The Bible doesn't describe where the LOF is located. No one knows. What we DO know is that all unbelievers will be thrown into that LOF. How or why it would be on the new earth is irrelevant and immaterial.

Rhetorical question, really.

Right. And they aren't good for theology. Let's just stay with what the Word of God says.

A plethora of Scriptures articulate that the wicked are destroyed and
are no more but many will claim that isn't what Scripture means when that is exactly what it says.

Why can't you accept that "destroy" is most of the time used in reference to living persons. And what gets destroyed regarding a living person? Their body, obviously.

That the LOF is also called the second death proves that the unsaved will be physically raised to life (resurrected) in order to die again.

 

[Amanuensis]

You have eternal torment eye glasses on. Take them off first then look at them again.

How about this?

Resist the urge to rewrite these verses.

I won't explain them and you don't either.

Problem solved.


Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
rd.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’



Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

 

[Amanuensis]

You referred to Peter but misrepresented him.

2 Peter 3:13
13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

In the new heavens and new earth there is only righteousness. There will not be unrighteous people to exist. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire per Revelation 20 to experience a second death. There is no more unrighteousness in the New Heaven and New Earth.

You have unrighteous people still lingering around somewhere being unrighteous. Apostle Peter disagrees with you. I believe Peter and not you.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was telling Magenta that I believe in a newly created earth not a burned over one. Nothing was said about unrighteous people. It was not part of my point.