And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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They don't have eternal life if they're dead, the second death is worse than the first death, no coming back from where you are sent. The second death is the lake of fire on the outer limits in the darkness where they will weep and gnash their teeth forever, where the fire is never quenched, and their worm dies not.
Where does it just say they live forever and are tormented? I can dig up probably a dozen verses or more that say the unrighteous are put to death or are destroyed. I’m just not seeing where you’re seeing.
Actually when I first became a Christian I believed in eternal torment. I believed many things I was told to believe, then I began reading the Bible. Soon I realized there’s so many things that don’t have any Biblical support or very weak Biblical support being taught in the modern church.
Actually when I first became a Christian I believed in eternal torment. I believed many things I was told to believe, then I began reading the Bible. Soon I realized there’s so many things that don’t have any Biblical support or very weak Biblical support being taught in the modern church.
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There is plenty of biblical support. Tons of scriptures have been given to you and you can find them with a Google Search "What does the bible teach about eternal torment for the wicked dead"
The bible talks about spiritual death that define it differently than physical death. Eternal death for the wicked is defined as eternal suffering. Destruction of the wicked is defined as constant. It is a spiritual realm that is beyond the laws of physics and you cannot apply those laws to that realm. It has no end. Trying to understand it and needing an end to it, is a mental stumbling block that has resulted in these theories of annihilation.
Spiritual death is a real thing. Right now people can have full capacity of conscious awareness while being dead spiritually, and when their spirit leaves their body they will still be aware of the suffering they are in and still be spiritually dead.
Eph 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses.
John 5:24 “Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
1 Tim 5:6 however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
It is obvious that the bible defines a spiritual death that is not the same as a body in a casket that has no consciousness physically from the brain.
The argument about trying to define the word "destroyed" as having an end, is as weak as the attempt to say that "death" requires no consciousness. It is just confusion about defining English words in various contexts. The bible speaks in many cases of everlasting destruction, and a meaning of destruction that is constant.
But the bible is so verbose on the topic of the spiritually dead suffering forever that the average reader has no need of anyone teaching him another view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this, not because there is no biblical support but because it is the plain reading of the bible and we do not need any one to teach us that it means something other than what it says.
The stumbling block for the naturally minded man is whether it is too cruel. And this only reveals how we are soft on sin and don't see things the way God does.
The bible talks about spiritual death that define it differently than physical death. Eternal death for the wicked is defined as eternal suffering. Destruction of the wicked is defined as constant. It is a spiritual realm that is beyond the laws of physics and you cannot apply those laws to that realm. It has no end. Trying to understand it and needing an end to it, is a mental stumbling block that has resulted in these theories of annihilation.
Spiritual death is a real thing. Right now people can have full capacity of conscious awareness while being dead spiritually, and when their spirit leaves their body they will still be aware of the suffering they are in and still be spiritually dead.
Eph 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses.
John 5:24 “Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
1 Tim 5:6 however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
It is obvious that the bible defines a spiritual death that is not the same as a body in a casket that has no consciousness physically from the brain.
The argument about trying to define the word "destroyed" as having an end, is as weak as the attempt to say that "death" requires no consciousness. It is just confusion about defining English words in various contexts. The bible speaks in many cases of everlasting destruction, and a meaning of destruction that is constant.
But the bible is so verbose on the topic of the spiritually dead suffering forever that the average reader has no need of anyone teaching him another view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this, not because there is no biblical support but because it is the plain reading of the bible and we do not need any one to teach us that it means something other than what it says.
The stumbling block for the naturally minded man is whether it is too cruel. And this only reveals how we are soft on sin and don't see things the way God does.
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People can make just about anything spiritual, allegorical, or metaphorical in the Bible with enough careful word-smithing and stringing together of unrelated verses to create a narrative. I don't see any reason why the plain text of the words death, life, destruction, perish, etc should be redefined or interpreted differently than their textbook definitions.
Spiritual death is literal death of the spirit. Jesus said people must be born again, Paul said those in Christ are a new creation, Ezekiel said God would put a new spirit in people. Think back to the fall of man, didn't God say the day they ate the fruit they would die? Well, they died spiritually because the wages of sin is death.
You'd have the Bible say death, but it isn't really death, or the Bible say people are destroyed but they are never destroyed, or that even those in hell receive eternal life despite Jesus saying only the righteous will receive immortality. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.
The stumbling block is the doctrine of eternal torment being preached to people and it has brought blasphemy on God for a long time and reproach on the church. It's very sad and I pray God could just fix it, but I am afraid this is our labor to sort this all out; thus I am here in this thread trying to reach you and others.
There will always be people like me right behind you preaching about what really happens to the wicked: the are destroyed permanently via death.
Spiritual death is literal death of the spirit. Jesus said people must be born again, Paul said those in Christ are a new creation, Ezekiel said God would put a new spirit in people. Think back to the fall of man, didn't God say the day they ate the fruit they would die? Well, they died spiritually because the wages of sin is death.
You'd have the Bible say death, but it isn't really death, or the Bible say people are destroyed but they are never destroyed, or that even those in hell receive eternal life despite Jesus saying only the righteous will receive immortality. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.
The stumbling block is the doctrine of eternal torment being preached to people and it has brought blasphemy on God for a long time and reproach on the church. It's very sad and I pray God could just fix it, but I am afraid this is our labor to sort this all out; thus I am here in this thread trying to reach you and others.
There will always be people like me right behind you preaching about what really happens to the wicked: the are destroyed permanently via death.
We've already been over how they are punished eternally, how they are in the act of weeping and gnashing teeth for eternity, what the location of this place is being fire that is eternal and at the outer darkness.
Lol if you thought the first time you began reading the Bible you knew some fun stuff, try reading all of it cover-to-cover, you will see much.
Lol if you thought the first time you began reading the Bible you knew some fun stuff, try reading all of it cover-to-cover, you will see much.
""view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this"",
is not a good argument in the face of
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NO Jesus NEVER lies.
So the question is what do the words tormented, everlasting, ever and ever mean to God?
Psalm 9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psalm 9:4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
What a PERFECT way to pass JUDGEMENT
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
At least if I AM IN ERROR, I error on the side of MERCY.
And the devil, the deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet and THEY will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages
Have you taken notice that not one person has shown a single soul, doing anything but getting tossed in?
No one other than THE DEVIL FALSE PROPHET AND BEAST are we told will be be tormented day and night to the ages of ages?
With all the conversation going back and forth and all the reasoning and all the assumptions and conjecture THIS FACT REMAINS TRUTH.
HOW is it everyone cant just say YES, THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN and NO, that is NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN? It shouldn't be that hard, should it?
So the question is what do the words tormented, everlasting, ever and ever mean to God?
Psalm 9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psalm 9:4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
What a PERFECT way to pass JUDGEMENT
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
At least if I AM IN ERROR, I error on the side of MERCY.
And the devil, the deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet and THEY will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages
Have you taken notice that not one person has shown a single soul, doing anything but getting tossed in?
No one other than THE DEVIL FALSE PROPHET AND BEAST are we told will be be tormented day and night to the ages of ages?
With all the conversation going back and forth and all the reasoning and all the assumptions and conjecture THIS FACT REMAINS TRUTH.
HOW is it everyone cant just say YES, THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN and NO, that is NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN? It shouldn't be that hard, should it?
I really do not see how God is cast in a better light when annihilationism teaches first people are punished and then annihilated.
As well a car can be destroyed does not mean it is gone from existence, it still exists, it still has matter.
Things can perish but they are still matter or energy but in a different form.
I do think there is no word in the ancient languages that is equivalent to annihilate, to become non-existent, nothingness.
As well, death in the original languages often means separation.
As well a car can be destroyed does not mean it is gone from existence, it still exists, it still has matter.
Things can perish but they are still matter or energy but in a different form.
I do think there is no word in the ancient languages that is equivalent to annihilate, to become non-existent, nothingness.
As well, death in the original languages often means separation.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
What does it mean to you?
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I think you’re assigning the word “eternally” to the many of the passages where it isn’t explicitly stated. If you’ll read them carefully I’m confident you’ll agree that it doesn’t actually say anyone is eternally tormented.
also we’ve gone over many things such as how the human soul is conditionally immortal via faith in Christ. Eternal life in hell for rejecting Christ would be living forever, right? How does that make sense?
also we’ve gone over many things such as how the human soul is conditionally immortal via faith in Christ. Eternal life in hell for rejecting Christ would be living forever, right? How does that make sense?
The debate is centuries old. There are lots of books and theological articles in journals where both sides have presented their scriptures and reasons for interpretations and the eternal punishment view always trumps the annihilationist's view.
This is not a matter of deception but of hermeneutics.
You have made a decision to side with the annihilationist's view and that is your prerogative.
Most others side with the superior hermeneutics presented through the centuries supporting the eternal punishment view as what the biblical authors intended.
We will find out.
At this point you should concede that others have a view of eternal punishment because they have read and studied scriptures and made an educated decision and not because they are ignorant and were told that by others.
This is not a matter of deception but of hermeneutics.
You have made a decision to side with the annihilationist's view and that is your prerogative.
Most others side with the superior hermeneutics presented through the centuries supporting the eternal punishment view as what the biblical authors intended.
We will find out.
At this point you should concede that others have a view of eternal punishment because they have read and studied scriptures and made an educated decision and not because they are ignorant and were told that by others.
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