Bible Vs Scientism
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What are we doing giving them money to put up satellites with cameras if they're that bad at this?
Can't they just put a camera on a rocket and start flying away while looking back? Can't be all that hard, we supposedly just put James Webb out there to do just this. And I hear we have satellites in front and behind us to look at solar flares?
Where is the definitive single satellite image of earth? We've sent at least 5 missions to Mars alone. Has nobody turned around and took parting shots?
Can't they just put a camera on a rocket and start flying away while looking back? Can't be all that hard, we supposedly just put James Webb out there to do just this. And I hear we have satellites in front and behind us to look at solar flares?
Where is the definitive single satellite image of earth? We've sent at least 5 missions to Mars alone. Has nobody turned around and took parting shots?
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You asked///
2. You mentioned "man, and the original progenitors". What do you mean by "the original progenitors".
I meant the origonal creature (canine) from which our present day wolves, dogs, coyotes, etc cane. Same for the first finch that all the different varieties of finch now exists. For instant, Adam was 1 man, and from him came black, brown, whitee, red and so on.
In the 2 verses that say a day is like a thousand years to God, define the word "day".
As for your question, consider...
1. The very concept and creation of "the day" is from God, who created it solely in relation to the earth.
2. God defined "day" as a single light/dark earth cycle - or the light portion of that cycle.
3. Any time the word "day" is modified with a numerical value (the first day, day seven, forty days, etc) it is always and without exception referring to a literal day.
4. Any time the word "day" is modified with evening and/or morning, it is always and without exception a literal day.
5. While the word "day" is often used idiomatically to refer to an unspecified general period of time, the plural word "days" ("in six days I created...") always and without exception refers to literal days.
6. God clearly and intentionally equated the six days of creation with the six days the Israelites were to work before taking a day of rest (you work for six and rest on the seventh BECAUSE I worked for six and rested on the seventh).
7. There is ZERO logical or scriptural reason to understand the six days of creation as anything other than literal days - nor even an inkling of scriptural evidence that anyone in the Bible every considered them as anything other than literal days. For example, "He made them male and female from the beginning of creation" - as opposed to "4.4 billion years after the beginning of creation".
I believe the Hebrew concept of a day going from evening until the following evening is based on that very first day - which began as evening (the darkness which God named "night"), then had a morning (the creation of light), and then ended at evening again - which also began the second day.
So the creation of light (and separation of light from darkness) was the impetus for the first of all subsequent days - and defined a "day" as a period of darkness, followed by a period of lightness, followed by a period of approaching darkness, which begins the next "day".
As for your question, consider...
1. The very concept and creation of "the day" is from God, who created it solely in relation to the earth.
2. God defined "day" as a single light/dark earth cycle - or the light portion of that cycle.
3. Any time the word "day" is modified with a numerical value (the first day, day seven, forty days, etc) it is always and without exception referring to a literal day.
4. Any time the word "day" is modified with evening and/or morning, it is always and without exception a literal day.
5. While the word "day" is often used idiomatically to refer to an unspecified general period of time, the plural word "days" ("in six days I created...") always and without exception refers to literal days.
6. God clearly and intentionally equated the six days of creation with the six days the Israelites were to work before taking a day of rest (you work for six and rest on the seventh BECAUSE I worked for six and rested on the seventh).
7. There is ZERO logical or scriptural reason to understand the six days of creation as anything other than literal days - nor even an inkling of scriptural evidence that anyone in the Bible every considered them as anything other than literal days. For example, "He made them male and female from the beginning of creation" - as opposed to "4.4 billion years after the beginning of creation".
I believe the Hebrew concept of a day going from evening until the following evening is based on that very first day - which began as evening (the darkness which God named "night"), then had a morning (the creation of light), and then ended at evening again - which also began the second day.
So the creation of light (and separation of light from darkness) was the impetus for the first of all subsequent days - and defined a "day" as a period of darkness, followed by a period of lightness, followed by a period of approaching darkness, which begins the next "day".
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Ah... okay. I thought you were saying that there were original humanoid progenitors from whom Adam came. And you are correct, the modern wolf is likely not the original progenitor of the canine sub-kinds as I had suggested in my last post. The wolf is probably itself a sub-kind that is fairly close to the genetic makeup of the original kind God created. 👍
Brilliant! All it takes is a little bit of thinking logically for ourselves instead of believing every stupid thing we're told on blind faith. Elon allegedly sent a Tesla to Mars - but the cameras only worked for a day or so. WHY? Why on earth would we not still be receiving live images of this journey? Don't they think people would LOVE (and PAY FOR) a subscription to see the car getting farther from the earth and closer to Mars? And why do his rockets have rear-facing cameras that show the ascent from earth... only up to a certain point before they switch to a cartoon illustration of what the rocket is supposedly doing? Why not keep those rear-facing (and the forward-facing ones for that matter) cameras ON and FUNCTIONING all the way to the ISS?
Simple questions, people. And simple logical thinking is all it takes to know that there is indeed a very real REASON why NONE of the thousands of "space missions" do these very easy things.
Who among us can guess what that reason is?
Simple questions, people. And simple logical thinking is all it takes to know that there is indeed a very real REASON why NONE of the thousands of "space missions" do these very easy things.
Who among us can guess what that reason is?
Yes, I believe the entire account of creation for each of the days.
The universe is not untold billions of years old. By biblical accounts, which I believe are accurate, the entire universe, including the earth, is roughly 6000 years old. On the 7th day God rested.
Now, in the eyes of the Lord each day is like 1000 years and 1000 years a day. Six days have now passed as the Lord has related how he views time. The earth is now in the 7th day. Some sort of biblical implication for sure in the events to come
God has said that he would shorten the days otherwise no one would survive, due to wars (nuclear), famine, various pestilences, and disease. Time is short.
The universe is not untold billions of years old. By biblical accounts, which I believe are accurate, the entire universe, including the earth, is roughly 6000 years old. On the 7th day God rested.
Now, in the eyes of the Lord each day is like 1000 years and 1000 years a day. Six days have now passed as the Lord has related how he views time. The earth is now in the 7th day. Some sort of biblical implication for sure in the events to come
God has said that he would shorten the days otherwise no one would survive, due to wars (nuclear), famine, various pestilences, and disease. Time is short.
How do you fit this verse into your idea of what the 'firmament' is?
Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
I suggest:
The word 'firmament' is translated from ('raqiya') means '[an] expanse'.
The root word it comes from ('raqa') means 'to expand' or '[to] spread out'.
It is not simply about "hammering something into shape"; rather, it is about expanding something or causing something to [be] spread out.
This is the real meaning of the word.
The meaning of the word does not come from a sense of "the action on an object"; rather, it comes from a sense of "the action of an object".
Do you see what I am trying to get across?
You have to be careful when determining the meaning of a word in scripture. Often, a word is based on only one aspect of another word. (If the meaning of a word was "an exact copy" of the word it is based on, another word would not be needed - the original word would simply be used.)
The 'hammering' idea is just analogous for the purpose of mental imagery. It does not "transfer over" from the word 'raqa' to the word 'raqiya'. Only the 'expanse' aspect of it does - which is what the word 'raqiya' is based on.
The word 'raqiya' refers to both the dome and the space under it - in the particular sense of it being 'spread out'. (as in Job 37:18)
The dome is a solid structure.
The sun, moon, and stars are under the dome in the expanse that is 'heaven'. (where the birds also fly)
The dome itself is not 'heaven'. However, it does have water above it.
The 'floodgates' definitely have to be part of the dome.
"Food for thought..."
Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
I suggest:
The word 'firmament' is translated from ('raqiya') means '[an] expanse'.
The root word it comes from ('raqa') means 'to expand' or '[to] spread out'.
It is not simply about "hammering something into shape"; rather, it is about expanding something or causing something to [be] spread out.
This is the real meaning of the word.
The meaning of the word does not come from a sense of "the action on an object"; rather, it comes from a sense of "the action of an object".
Do you see what I am trying to get across?
You have to be careful when determining the meaning of a word in scripture. Often, a word is based on only one aspect of another word. (If the meaning of a word was "an exact copy" of the word it is based on, another word would not be needed - the original word would simply be used.)
The 'hammering' idea is just analogous for the purpose of mental imagery. It does not "transfer over" from the word 'raqa' to the word 'raqiya'. Only the 'expanse' aspect of it does - which is what the word 'raqiya' is based on.
The word 'raqiya' refers to both the dome and the space under it - in the particular sense of it being 'spread out'. (as in Job 37:18)
The dome is a solid structure.
The sun, moon, and stars are under the dome in the expanse that is 'heaven'. (where the birds also fly)
The dome itself is not 'heaven'. However, it does have water above it.
The 'floodgates' definitely have to be part of the dome.
"Food for thought..."
If flat earth threads are just 'entertainment' (for you), then why do you [let yourself] get aggravated?
Let me suggest what I think will help...
If you are going to take FE seriously any-at-all, you absolutely MUST learn to look at it from a FE POV and not a BE POV.
A lot of things are really not going to make any sense if you look at FE from a BE POV.
In other words, flat earth threads are not just 'entertainment' - are they...?
There is a boat-load of physical evidence. But - you CANNOT look at it from a BE POV or it will not make sense!
If you are going to consider anything in the FE world, you MUST learn to consider it from a FE POV.
Let me suggest what I think will help...
If you are going to take FE seriously any-at-all, you absolutely MUST learn to look at it from a FE POV and not a BE POV.
A lot of things are really not going to make any sense if you look at FE from a BE POV.
In other words, flat earth threads are not just 'entertainment' - are they...?
There is a boat-load of physical evidence. But - you CANNOT look at it from a BE POV or it will not make sense!
If you are going to consider anything in the FE world, you MUST learn to consider it from a FE POV.
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Hi Gary. We need to properly translate that verse...
New King James Version
Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
[in the open firmament of heaven] This rendering scarcely reproduces the sense of the Hebrew words, which literally mean “in the face of,” or “over against, the firmament of heaven.” The idea is that winged things are to fly “above” the earth, and “in front of” the vault of heaven... The meaning seems to be that the flight of winged things shall be in mid air, “in front,” as it were, of the solid “firmament of heaven,” which was not remote.
Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
"God said: Let the waters swarm with swarms, with living beings, and let birds fly above the earth in the face (the front, i.e., the side turned towards the earth) of the firmament."
And many more. The Bible doesn't say that birds fly IN the firmament, but across the FACE of it.
Raqa literally refers to stamping one's feet on the ground, and by extension, stamping/beating out metal etc with a tool into a desired shape. Raqia refers to a final shape/object that has been stamped/beaten out. The word does not in any sense refer to a wide open intangible expanse of air or empty space.
Correct.
Incorrect. The sun, moon and stars are IN the firmament. (Gen 1:14, 15, 17) Birds fly UNDER, or "across the face of" it. (Gen 1:20)
Incorrect. It is the firmament (the "dome/vault") itself that God named "heaven". (Gen 1:8)
Correct.
They are. And since the dome IS heaven, they are rightfully called "the floodgates of heaven".
Thanks for your comments, Gary. I look forward to more discussion. 🙏
New King James Version
Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
[in the open firmament of heaven] This rendering scarcely reproduces the sense of the Hebrew words, which literally mean “in the face of,” or “over against, the firmament of heaven.” The idea is that winged things are to fly “above” the earth, and “in front of” the vault of heaven... The meaning seems to be that the flight of winged things shall be in mid air, “in front,” as it were, of the solid “firmament of heaven,” which was not remote.
Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
"God said: Let the waters swarm with swarms, with living beings, and let birds fly above the earth in the face (the front, i.e., the side turned towards the earth) of the firmament."
And many more. The Bible doesn't say that birds fly IN the firmament, but across the FACE of it.
Raqa literally refers to stamping one's feet on the ground, and by extension, stamping/beating out metal etc with a tool into a desired shape. Raqia refers to a final shape/object that has been stamped/beaten out. The word does not in any sense refer to a wide open intangible expanse of air or empty space.
Correct.
Incorrect. The sun, moon and stars are IN the firmament. (Gen 1:14, 15, 17) Birds fly UNDER, or "across the face of" it. (Gen 1:20)
Incorrect. It is the firmament (the "dome/vault") itself that God named "heaven". (Gen 1:8)
Correct.
They are. And since the dome IS heaven, they are rightfully called "the floodgates of heaven".
Thanks for your comments, Gary. I look forward to more discussion. 🙏
Faith-based belief is inherently flawed. What you have described here is blind faith.
Evidence-based faith is what the Bible promotes. On the basis of what God has done, He calls us to believe what we cannot (yet) see. I believe the Bible is true because of the fulfilled prophecies, not merely "on faith".
Your description of scientism is likewise flawed. Science (real science) is based on evidence and experimentation.; faith has nothing to do with it. Fake science encompasses blind faith... believing things outside of science. You erroneously conflate the two.
Evidence-based faith is what the Bible promotes. On the basis of what God has done, He calls us to believe what we cannot (yet) see. I believe the Bible is true because of the fulfilled prophecies, not merely "on faith".
Your description of scientism is likewise flawed. Science (real science) is based on evidence and experimentation.; faith has nothing to do with it. Fake science encompasses blind faith... believing things outside of science. You erroneously conflate the two.