Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Goliath]

That’s interesting you mention about who Romans was written to because lately, as of yesterday or the day before I think, I suddenly noticed that the audience in Romans did not seem to be Gentiles, but rather Jews. Though I do think there were probably some Gentiles, too, but who knows for sure.

I firmly believe that who a letter is addressed to changes the delivery and reception of it. Such as Hebrews for example.

Paul’s letter to the Romans seems to have broken with his mission to the gentiles, so he didn’t have apostolic authority in Rome, nor did he like building a foundation where others had already built. Paul was going to go to Spain, through Rome, in order to church plant.

It's Definitely an interesting study of Paul's epistles, to see which letters were directed at the Jewish believer and those at the Gentile believer. Ephesians is definitely directed at the Gentiles, and because they didn't have the confusion the church in Rome had, they became one of the Lords seven founding churches.
I often wonder, if any of the seven were Jewish.

 

[Goliath]

Churches put themselves under the law because they misunderstood Paul's argument in Romans. The damage has been profound within historical Christianity.

I can not fault the Jewish believers. Many generations had been under the Law of Moses and you can imagine how difficult it would be, to leave what what you had know to be solid ground.
They just couldn't let go of the Old...For the New. They accepted Jesus, but just couldn't let go of the Law of Moses.

Kinda like many on the Titanic. There were lifeboats to get into, but they felt safer on the sinking ship, not believing it would sink,....so they stayed with what they believed to be safe, for the uncertainty of a lifeboat, a little boat set in waters thousands of miles from land.

 

[Jackson123]

That is hilarious!! I'm done trying to have a discussion with you given your blatant refusal to answer simple questions.

Again, John 10:28 says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish"

Now, did Jesus say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish? yes or no

If "no", then what did He mean?

John 10;28 after Matt 24;13

 

[Goliath]

Correct and well done.

The letter to the Romans is one very confusing letter for most folk, unfortunately. I don't think many folk understand the letter to the Romans. So we have numerous church organizations that quote from Romans. To support their doctrinal statements but ignore the wider context, that alters the meaning and application of those chosen verses.

It is hard to believe that well into the twenty first century, we can have one letter in the New Testament. That very few churches understand, even though we are so well educated these days.

What is the real problem with the letter to the Romans?

It's more argument than teaching. Though Paul does try to teach them through experiences, experiences shared by both Jew and Gentile believer. The real problem with the Book is people use the book of Romans as a guide to Salvation..Circumventing the Lords Salvation teachings.

They same thing happened in the Early Churches...which is why he came to John to correct their errors.
Read about the failure of these Churches and try not to duplicate them in your church.
For example...(Revelation 2:5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the works as at first; or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, unless thou repent.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Except "all of these promises" add up to REWARD in eternity. That is what "rich" means in the Bible. All believers will be IN eternity.

But only REWARDED believers will have a "rich eternity". And too many believers think that changing their own behavior is what will get them IN eternity. They couldn't be more mistaken.

A rich eternity is for those believers who understand the 4 commands above and obey them consistently.


No believer has to "fix their sights on the eternal" if that means getting to heaven. Heaven and eternity with God is GUARANTEED to every believer. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

By "fixing our sights on the eternal" in the sense of glorifying God by producing the fruit of the Spirit by the POWER of the Spirit rather than our own human good that comes from our human nature, then we know that God will REWARD us.


The "prize" isn't heaven, but REWARD in heaven.

By definition, rewards are EARNED.

By definition, gifts are NOT EARNED.

God's gifts, given on the basis of faith in Christ:
1. salvation
2. eternal life
3. Holy Spirit indwelling in the believer
4. spiritual gifts with which to serve God faithfully

You're not getting it. There are specific Promises to those who overcome in the Book of Revelation, and if you want to inherit those promises, you must, by God's Grace, overcome - overcome sin, overcome greed, overcome lust, overcome pride, overcome unjust anger etc. Those who do this will obtain the Great Promises God gives in the Book of Revelation.

Related but different article: https://activechristianity.org/7-extraordinary-promises-for-those-who-overcome

"The 1st extraordinary promise: The tree of life
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7.

The 2nd extraordinary promise: You will not be hurt by the second death
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Revelation 2:11.

The 3rd extraordinary promise: Hidden manna, a white stone, and a new name

“To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows except him who receives it.” Revelation 2:17.

The 4th extraordinary promise: Power over the nations, a rod of iron, and the morning star
“And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations – ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ – as I also have received from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.” Revelation 2:26-28.

The 5th extraordinary promise: White garments and the Book of Life
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Revelation 3:5.


The 6th extraordinary promise: A pillar in the temple of My God
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” Revelation 3:12.

The 7th extraordinary promise: Sit with Me on My Throne
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Revelation 3:21.

=== [Article End] ===

Where is "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." (Phil 4:13) in your theology? It seems to be absent.

No one doubts that when a person believes in Christ as Lord and Savior, he passes from death to life. After that comes spiritual growth in the new life. How does that happen? It happens through Holy Communion, through Good Works etc.

If I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me, I can overcome through Christ, and His Holy Spirit, Who strengthens me. And that's what I'm going to strive to do; I want not just any entrance, but a rich entrance into Heaven, and imho, all believers should aim for and want the same, as God wants it for them. God is glorified when we bear much fruit, as He taught us in many places. Yes, it goes without saying that those are Good Works done in the Power of the Spirit for the Love of God. But those Good Works are needed, and they contribute both to our sanctification and rewards in Heaven. I am going to aim for these and other Rewards mentioned in the Bible, and I suggest you should do the same.

God Bless.

 

[Goliath]

Many people, Christians who followed the wrong Church teachings, will perish along with everyone else. If only they had been warned before hand. They were!! In those warnings....Jesus gives to the Seven Churches.
People may discount the Lords Gospel...saying it was only written to the Jewish believer.
But we can all see what he says to the Seven Churches....was said After he ascended into Heaven and good advice and warning to the churches to this very day.

 

[posthuman]

But they weren't written in stone...were they?

in fact yes they were:

Now Joshua built an altar to the Lord God of Israel in Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses: “an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron tool.” And they offered on it burnt offerings to the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings. And there, in the presence of the children of Israel, he wrote on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written. Then all Israel, with their elders and officers and judges, stood on either side of the ark before the priests, the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, the stranger as well as he who was born among them. Half of them were in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel. And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and the cursings, according to all that is written in the Book of the Law. There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, with the women, the little ones, and the strangers who were living among them.
(Joshua 8:30-35)
​

 

[posthuman]

But they weren't written in stone...were they?

the fact of the law being written in stone and transmitted through Moses makes it unmistakeable what is being spoken of here:

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.​

And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.​

(1 Corinthians 3:2-11)
​

clearly the law - including the 10 commandments - is what is called 'the letter that kills' and a 'ministry of death' and 'ministry of condemnation' and 'passing away'
it is contrasted with the glory of the good news of Christ's work for us, spoken of as though it has no more glory at all.

now, this cannot be simply speaking only of Joshua writing all the law on stones at Ebal & Gershim, because Paul says 'tablets' - and makes mention of the glory on the face of Moses. but even when Joshua wrote the entire law in stone, the 10 commandments are included - see Joshua 8:34-35, there was not a single word of all that had been commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole congregation. he didn't leave them out.

so if you were thinking you could exclude the 10 from being called a killing letter, ministry of condemnation with comparatively no glory at all, that is passing away... well, you can't. the Bible doesn't allow you to. if anything it's particularly called this, because the theme here is the difference between the two covenants, that old one with Israel at Horeb, and the new one with all who believe, ratified at Calvary. because what is the old covenant? Deuteronomy 4:13 specifically calls the decalogue that old covenant.

 

[posthuman]

Churches put themselves under the law because they misunderstood Paul's argument in Romans. The damage has been profound within historical Christianity.

amen.

what invariably happens with honest pharisaic legalists is that they have to start rejecting Paul altogether - as i'm sure you have seen

we can see the beginnings of that in our friends writings to us here, where he says we 'only get this from Romans' and that 'Romans was only written to Jews'

Romans is the Leviticus of the NT; in it the gospel is expertly taught in great detail & clarity. it is a key target.

 

[posthuman]

It is hard to believe that well into the twenty first century, we can have one letter in the New Testament. That very few churches understand, even though we are so well educated these days.

only one???

lol

 

[posthuman]

What is the real problem with the letter to the Romans?

it doesn't stop with chapter 2?

 

[posthuman]

The teachings of "Not by Works but By Grace", are only being addressed to the Church in Rome and the one in Galatia.

um, hello, Ephesians? Hebrews? Corinthians? Thessalonians? John's little letters? Peter's epistles? Acts?

 

[posthuman]

I don't accuse you of anything

oh?

but you do in the very same post you said that:

The one experience of Gods Grace you do not have, is being Born of God.
How do I know this?
Because you could never teach what you do, if you had been born of God. This is why you refute or change what is clearly written in (1 John 3:9-10).

you here blatantly accuse me of:

• not being born of God
• teaching false doctrine
• refuting the Bible
• changing the Bible

and on what basis?
simply because i affirm that salvation is by the grace of God, not by any works that we have done.
that God saves us according to His mercy, not by our own will, effort or desire.
that the promise is to all who believe and put their trust in Christ & His work on our behalf.

yet all these things, i have given you evidence in many witnesses of scripture, and will patiently continue to do so.

 

[posthuman]

Again...these were not written in stone...Were They?

again, yes. Joshua 8.
have another look at 1 Corinthians 3, please.
remember Romans 7, particularly keeping in mind that verse 7 exists. that chapter 6 exists. that Rome is not a Jewish city, but the great melting-pot of its day: people from every tongue and tribe and nation.
consider Colossians 3:3 and why it is important.

 

[posthuman]

Do you think Jesus needed to "crucify the flesh"? That is a command to believers who ARE sinners. Jesus never sinned.

We CAN'T live a life like Jesus did. He was sinless. We are sinners. Jesus didn't "overcome" sin. When the Bible tells us to be more "Christ-like" it refers to our actions. Jesus perfectly demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit. But, lots of unbelievers can demonstrate some of these traits. So what's the difference? Demonstrating the traits from the power of the Holy Spirit, rather than from our human nature.

The human nature can only produce human good. It may look exactly like the good that comes from the power of the Spirit. But human good is very offensive to God. Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (literally - used menstral rags); we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

amen

 

[posthuman]

Really...All over?
The teachings of "Not by Works but By Grace", are only being addressed to the Church in Rome and the one in Galatia.

**ahem**

this is literally all over the entire scripture from the first to the last page.

shall we start with Genesis?
in ch. 3 God promises the Messiah, sheds the blood of an innocent, sinless soul, covers the shame of Adam & his wife with it, and "keeps" the way to Life for them ((Genesis 3:24, "shamar" - to keep, to preserve))
why?
because of their works?
no; their works were evil.

because they confessed their sin ((3:12, 3:13)) in repentance, and believed God ((3:20))

this is a testimony of Christ ((John 5:39))
is it a testimony of salvation by the merciful grace of God according to faith or by righteous works of men commending themselves to Him?


want to move on?
what happens in chapter 4?
Abel presents the blood of an innocent lamb ((why?)) and Cain presents the work of his hands ((why?))
does this remind you of Luke 18:9-14? it should!
is this salvation by works or by grace?

want to look at chapter 5?

​

And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:​

And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.​

(Genesis 5-28-29) ​

​

why does Lamech say that the gift of God ((Psalm 127:3)) will comfort us concerning our fruitless work and toil ((Genesis 3:18))?
hmm?
because works? or because the mercy of God?

bro, we can go on. let's.
how many years do we have?
all of this is about Christ - and Christ is about salvation belonging to God, according to His mercy

​

 

[Goliath]

in fact yes they were:

Now Joshua built an altar to the Lord God of Israel in Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses: “an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron tool.” And they offered on it burnt offerings to the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings. And there, in the presence of the children of Israel, he wrote on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written. Then all Israel, with their elders and officers and judges, stood on either side of the ark before the priests, the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, the stranger as well as he who was born among them. Half of them were in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel. And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and the cursings, according to all that is written in the Book of the Law. There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, with the women, the little ones, and the strangers who were living among them. ​

(Joshua 8:30-35)​

​

Okay...Joshua wrote on stone??
What does that prove in your mind?

 

[Goliath]

**ahem**

this is literally all over the entire scripture from the first to the last page.

shall we start with Genesis?
in ch. 3 God promises the Messiah, sheds the blood of an innocent, sinless soul, covers the shame of Adam & his wife with it, and "keeps" the way to Life for them ((Genesis 3:24, "shamar" - to keep, to preserve))
why?
because of their works?
no; their works were evil.

because they confessed their sin ((3:12, 3:13)) in repentance, and believed God ((3:20))

this is a testimony of Christ ((John 5:39))
is it a testimony of salvation by the merciful grace of God according to faith or by righteous works of men commending themselves to Him?


want to move on?
what happens in chapter 4?
Abel presents the blood of an innocent lamb ((why?)) and Cain presents the work of his hands ((why?))
does this remind you of Luke 18:9-14? it should!
is this salvation by works or by grace?

want to look at chapter 5?

​

And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:​

And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.​

(Genesis 5-28-29) ​

​

why does Lamech say that the gift of God ((Psalm 127:3)) will comfort us concerning our fruitless work and toil ((Genesis 3:18))?
hmm?
because works? or because the mercy of God?

bro, we can go on. let's.
how many years do we have?
all of this is about Christ - and Christ is about salvation belonging to God, according to His mercy

​

Grasping for straws? Talk about wasting your time.

 

[posthuman]

when you read Romans...This letter is written to the Jewish believers, not the Gentiles.

**ahem**

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people
(Romans 1:7)​

 

[posthuman]

Grasping for straws? Talk about wasting your time.

finding Christ in the scripture is not "grasping for straws" -- it is obedience to His own command in John 5:39

"search the scripture" ​

"these are they which testify of Me"​

​

i thought you were big on obeying Christ's commandments . . ?

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy
(Revelation 19:10)​