Read James 2. Faith and works go together. The examples gave by James were people who’s works were obeying God on specific points that weren’t even about law keeping. A good work is obeying God such as when God commanded people to get water baptized. Have faith that the work God has given us is good. Do the work because you’re told to do it just like Abraham and Rahab did.
Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected
the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have
practiced without neglecting the others. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!"
the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have
practiced without neglecting the others. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!"
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No He didn't. You are only presuming that He meant that. Go to v.46 which is the key to understanding the whole context. It is "the righteous" who enter into life. This is technical for believers, since God credits righteousness to believers. Rom 3-4.
Read ALL of Rom 3 and 4 and see for yourself. Only believers will get into the kingdom. Works not needed.
Yep.
Don't stop here. Go ALL the way to v.46 where the ones who will 'enter into life' are "the righteous", which is technical for believers.
Read ALL of Rom 3 and 4 and see for yourself. Only believers will get into the kingdom. Works not needed.
Yep.
Don't stop here. Go ALL the way to v.46 where the ones who will 'enter into life' are "the righteous", which is technical for believers.
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Do. Every month for about 2 decades. How many times have you read the epistle?
Read 2:18, which is the summary of James' whole point.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Unfortunately, every translation that includes quote marks messed up. The "someone" here actually says both sentences. It makes no sense if James only meant he said "you have faith; I have deeds".
This "someone" is challenging another person to demonstrate (show) their faith without works and he (the someone) will show his faith BY HIS DEEDS.
Read 2:18, which is the summary of James' whole point.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Unfortunately, every translation that includes quote marks messed up. The "someone" here actually says both sentences. It makes no sense if James only meant he said "you have faith; I have deeds".
This "someone" is challenging another person to demonstrate (show) their faith without works and he (the someone) will show his faith BY HIS DEEDS.
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It’s actually interesting in my opinion though. I’m actually thinking faith in Matt 23:23 is probably more accurately faithfulness is in this context which would bd faithfulness to keeping the law.
The Pharisees had to have more than just a belief in the law, they needed to keep the law accurately and faithfully. Jesus spends most of the chapter rebuking them and trying to correct them a bit.
I’m not really sure how it was directed at me to be honest. I’m not telling people to keep the law of Moses.
The Pharisees had to have more than just a belief in the law, they needed to keep the law accurately and faithfully. Jesus spends most of the chapter rebuking them and trying to correct them a bit.
I’m not really sure how it was directed at me to be honest. I’m not telling people to keep the law of Moses.
Please be CLEAR about what you think I am rejecting. I resent that. So show me what you think I am rejecting.
You're making some weird comments. I never said you invented anything. ???
Since you don't know anything about me, you wouldn't know what a completely snarky and silly your comment is.
I've been using the Berean study method, ala Acts 17:11 for many years. They knew how to study Scripture! And I routinely pray that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of my understanding per Eph 1:18.
So, I'm waiting for your explanation of what I am rejecting in the Bible. If you use my quotes, then add the post # as well. For all to see.
You're making some weird comments. I never said you invented anything. ???
Since you don't know anything about me, you wouldn't know what a completely snarky and silly your comment is.
I've been using the Berean study method, ala Acts 17:11 for many years. They knew how to study Scripture! And I routinely pray that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of my understanding per Eph 1:18.
So, I'm waiting for your explanation of what I am rejecting in the Bible. If you use my quotes, then add the post # as well. For all to see.
Your denials are empty.
No, I said a branch being cast into a fire meant that the Lord would put aside that believer and not use him/her for His service. To any Jew, that would have been horrible.
Matt 25 says so. Please focus on the last verse, v.46, the KEY to the whole context.
It makes very clear who will enter heaven: the righteous. Do you think that means people who go around doing good?
No. It is technical for believers. When a person believes, God credits righteousness to them. His own righteousness.
What a foolish comment.
You're the one who can't figure out anything. Jesus said plainly that recipients of eternal life, given when they become a believer, SHALL NEVER PERISH. And you REJECT that completely.
Paul wrote that "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer for the redemption of God's possession.
Apparently you don't even understand any of this.
All believers have the Holy Spirit in them (indwelling). Those filled with the Spirit are guided in understanding Scripturel
I haven't seen any evidence of any of this in your posts.
You claim you believe verses that clearly teach eternal security, yet you deny eternal security.
And you say that I am weak in logic. Apparently you have zero logic.
No, I said a branch being cast into a fire meant that the Lord would put aside that believer and not use him/her for His service. To any Jew, that would have been horrible.
Matt 25 says so. Please focus on the last verse, v.46, the KEY to the whole context.
It makes very clear who will enter heaven: the righteous. Do you think that means people who go around doing good?
No. It is technical for believers. When a person believes, God credits righteousness to them. His own righteousness.
What a foolish comment.
You're the one who can't figure out anything. Jesus said plainly that recipients of eternal life, given when they become a believer, SHALL NEVER PERISH. And you REJECT that completely.
Paul wrote that "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer for the redemption of God's possession.
Apparently you don't even understand any of this.
All believers have the Holy Spirit in them (indwelling). Those filled with the Spirit are guided in understanding Scripturel
I haven't seen any evidence of any of this in your posts.
You claim you believe verses that clearly teach eternal security, yet you deny eternal security.
And you say that I am weak in logic. Apparently you have zero logic.
Do fail to understand that "eternal security" and "endure to the end" are antithetical.
Eternal security means salvation is permanent. Enduring to the end means you'd better sweat about it and work your butt off.
You have twisted the verse.
You have zero logic.
Let me remind you that Jesus made clear from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer has eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Those given eternal life and the Holy Spirit SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Can you hear that?
Eternal security means salvation is permanent. Enduring to the end means you'd better sweat about it and work your butt off.
You have twisted the verse.
You have zero logic.
Let me remind you that Jesus made clear from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer has eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Those given eternal life and the Holy Spirit SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Can you hear that?
Here is the claim that you are making.
The word, 'works', shown in the verse below.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Should be read as the 'legal works' in the law of Moses. That is, 'legal works' applies only to the ordinances and not the ten commandments within the law.
There can be no doubt, what so ever, that you are interpretating Ephesians 2:8, that is why you changed that word, 'works'.
Now here is the contextual evidence that you are claiming, will support your replacement of that word, 'works, in Ephesians 2:8. To the phrase, 'legal works'.
Ephesians 2:15 (NET)
When he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace.
The NET translation will not allow that change from 'works' to 'legal works'. The NET translation says that the 'law of commandments' has been nullified.
In conclusion, your claim that the context of Ephesians chapter two, i.e., one clause in one verse of Ephesians 2:15. Is not actually the context that changes that word, 'works', in Ephesians 2:8 to 'legal works'. Because your alteration, i.e., works to legal works, is translation specific. Your alteration of Ephesians 2:8, will only work with certain translations. Even then, it is a dangerous stretch to alter what Paul clearly wrote in Ephesians 2:8.
The word, 'works', shown in the verse below.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Should be read as the 'legal works' in the law of Moses. That is, 'legal works' applies only to the ordinances and not the ten commandments within the law.
There can be no doubt, what so ever, that you are interpretating Ephesians 2:8, that is why you changed that word, 'works'.
Now here is the contextual evidence that you are claiming, will support your replacement of that word, 'works, in Ephesians 2:8. To the phrase, 'legal works'.
Ephesians 2:15 (NET)
When he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace.
The NET translation will not allow that change from 'works' to 'legal works'. The NET translation says that the 'law of commandments' has been nullified.
In conclusion, your claim that the context of Ephesians chapter two, i.e., one clause in one verse of Ephesians 2:15. Is not actually the context that changes that word, 'works', in Ephesians 2:8 to 'legal works'. Because your alteration, i.e., works to legal works, is translation specific. Your alteration of Ephesians 2:8, will only work with certain translations. Even then, it is a dangerous stretch to alter what Paul clearly wrote in Ephesians 2:8.
According to your interpretation, Runningman. The word 'works' in Ephesians 2:8, should be read as legal works. If that is true, then we need to alter the following verse shown below.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works...
The phrase 'good works' will then become 'good legal works, i.e., ordinances.
We cannot alter one word 'works' (Ephesians 2:8) and not alter the same word again in Ephesians (Ephesians 2:10).
Not sure how you get out of this one?
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works...
The phrase 'good works' will then become 'good legal works, i.e., ordinances.
We cannot alter one word 'works' (Ephesians 2:8) and not alter the same word again in Ephesians (Ephesians 2:10).
Not sure how you get out of this one?
Let me remind you that Jesus made clear from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer has eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Those given eternal life and the Holy Spirit SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Paul taught eternal security exactly like Jesus did.
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
So what was Paul referring to by the words "guaranteeing what is to come"? Whatever it is, Paul it IMPORTANT enough to say it twice.
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
So, here is the answer: what is guaranteed is the believer's inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
I just can't understand how anyone who claims to believe in Christ can also believe salvation can be lost given what both Paul and Jesus said.
First, there is no consensus that Paul wrote Hebrews.
Second, let's look at the whole context, not just this small snippet that you are misunderstanding.
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
In v.7 we see that land that "drinks in the rain falling on it" produces a crop (bearing fruit). And receives God's blessings (reward).
In v.8 we see that land that produces "thorn and thistles is worthless". It ends with "in the end it (the thorns and thistles) will be burned.
The point in this parable is that "the land" refers to people, and what they produce; either fruit or worthless things. So v.8 isn't about the land being burned, but what it produces; the thorns and thistles.
Hm. Sounds very familiar. Oh right. Paul wrote along these exact same lines.
1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
In v.12 Paul lists the things that people can choose for building on this foundation of evangelism. The gold, silver, and jewels refers to divine production from the filling of the Holy Spirit. The wood, hay or straw refers to human good, produces from the sinful nature. And recall that Isa 64:6 says that "all our (from our human nature) righteousnesses are like used menstrual rags" to God.
v.13 speaks of God's judgment of believers at the Judgment Seat of Christ per 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Notice that Paul used FIRE (like in burning) for God's evaluation of believers.
v.14 refers to the gold, silver and jewels that survive the FIRE or God's evaluation and the REWARD that results.
v.15 refers to the human good that is "burned up" in the FIRE of God's judgment.
But note, the believer "but yet will be SAVED".
Yep. That is exactly what Heb 6:7,8 and 1 Cor 3:12-15 is saying. And NONE of it is about losing salvation.
[QUOET]is this heaven without crown unto cursing and burned in heaven?[/QUOTE]
I have to assume you can read the verses like I can. The "burning" of the FIRE of God's evaluation occurs at the Judgment Seat of Christ, which will occur when He comes back as King.
Those given eternal life and the Holy Spirit SHALL NEVER PERISH.
Paul taught eternal security exactly like Jesus did.
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
So what was Paul referring to by the words "guaranteeing what is to come"? Whatever it is, Paul it IMPORTANT enough to say it twice.
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
So, here is the answer: what is guaranteed is the believer's inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
I just can't understand how anyone who claims to believe in Christ can also believe salvation can be lost given what both Paul and Jesus said.
First, there is no consensus that Paul wrote Hebrews.
Second, let's look at the whole context, not just this small snippet that you are misunderstanding.
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
In v.7 we see that land that "drinks in the rain falling on it" produces a crop (bearing fruit). And receives God's blessings (reward).
In v.8 we see that land that produces "thorn and thistles is worthless". It ends with "in the end it (the thorns and thistles) will be burned.
The point in this parable is that "the land" refers to people, and what they produce; either fruit or worthless things. So v.8 isn't about the land being burned, but what it produces; the thorns and thistles.
Hm. Sounds very familiar. Oh right. Paul wrote along these exact same lines.
1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
In v.12 Paul lists the things that people can choose for building on this foundation of evangelism. The gold, silver, and jewels refers to divine production from the filling of the Holy Spirit. The wood, hay or straw refers to human good, produces from the sinful nature. And recall that Isa 64:6 says that "all our (from our human nature) righteousnesses are like used menstrual rags" to God.
v.13 speaks of God's judgment of believers at the Judgment Seat of Christ per 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Notice that Paul used FIRE (like in burning) for God's evaluation of believers.
v.14 refers to the gold, silver and jewels that survive the FIRE or God's evaluation and the REWARD that results.
v.15 refers to the human good that is "burned up" in the FIRE of God's judgment.
But note, the believer "but yet will be SAVED".
Yep. That is exactly what Heb 6:7,8 and 1 Cor 3:12-15 is saying. And NONE of it is about losing salvation.
[QUOET]is this heaven without crown unto cursing and burned in heaven?[/QUOTE]
I have to assume you can read the verses like I can. The "burning" of the FIRE of God's evaluation occurs at the Judgment Seat of Christ, which will occur when He comes back as King.
I have to assume you can read the verses like I can. The "burning" of the FIRE of God's evaluation occurs at the Judgment Seat of Christ, which will occur when He comes back as King.[/QUOTE]
i don’t think you honest
burned the land?
wrong it burn the tree
rejected, cursed and burn mean heaven less reward
hmm
rejected cursed and burned in heaven?
you make mistake for 100 time to compare with corinthian
corinthian talking about builder
minister not building
minister oke but church member deny
corinthian do not say reject cursed and burn to the builder
hebrew say it
use your logic friend not only eat what ever your pastor say
i tell you what I am a member first baptis church for 26 years I know your doctrine
the different is I read my bible and ponder it
also I am from Muslim country and listen debate Muslim christian
they call it crazy religion
how you only need a second than fell free to kill and never lose your salvation
if that the Bible say they are correct
but I know that only wrong interpretation
it is not what Bible say
i don’t think you honest
burned the land?
wrong it burn the tree
rejected, cursed and burn mean heaven less reward
hmm
rejected cursed and burned in heaven?
you make mistake for 100 time to compare with corinthian
corinthian talking about builder
minister not building
minister oke but church member deny
corinthian do not say reject cursed and burn to the builder
hebrew say it
use your logic friend not only eat what ever your pastor say
i tell you what I am a member first baptis church for 26 years I know your doctrine
the different is I read my bible and ponder it
also I am from Muslim country and listen debate Muslim christian
they call it crazy religion
how you only need a second than fell free to kill and never lose your salvation
if that the Bible say they are correct
but I know that only wrong interpretation
it is not what Bible say