Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

Intentionally obtuse.
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The natural man does not receive the Gospel, and cannot because he cannot understand it since its spiritually appraised. 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Nope ... my shining the light of Scripture on your erroneous dogma does not equal me discarding Scripture

No thats how you discard them. You will always have a noble excuse to disregard the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

if you were "paying close attention to what the verse is saying within its context", you wouldn't be "Lifting a verse from wthin its context".

Do you even stop to think about what you are saying before you click the "Post reply" button?

Paying attention to a scripture in any given context, is acknowledging the Truth found in any given context. When you dont like the truth, or it doesnt agree with your false traditions, you cry context context. Its really a cowardly way out.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The word "if" is not in the text. It was added to the text.

The words if we believe are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The words “if we” were added to the text by the translators.

The word pisteuō Is in the present tense which means it denotes the present time (i.e. at the time the person believes).

Additionally, the word "imputed" (Greek logizomai) is also in the present tense.

So Romans 4:24 tells us that at the time a person believes, God imputes righteousness to him or her ... right when the person believes ... not before, but when.

It doesnt matter, believing is the evidence of Justification, not the cause. Christs death is the cause and ground of imputed righteousness. They whom Christ died for are born into the world with Christs righteousness imputed, they just dont know it.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

If a person does not believe, then righteousness is not imputed to him/her.

If a person never believes its because Christ never died for them as one of His Sheep Jn 10:16
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

If you were never one of Christs Sheep, He never died for you, you were never Justified, so you cannot and will not never believe. Only the Just shall live by Faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, those who Christ died for, and Justified, it will be evidenced when they believe. and believing is the result of having been born again. No one believes but the Justified born again person !

Well, that's a bold admission. Although completely unbiblical.

So you admit that Calvinism believes that unsaved people are FIRST born again and justified BEFORE they believe.

OK, please support this biblically with Scripture that uses clear and plain language.

Or, you an just ignore this request since you know very well there aren't any such verses. That'll save you a lot of time looking.

otoh, here is the PROOF that belief precedes both believing and regeneration.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Blue words refer to regeneration, or being born again.
Red words clarify what Paul meant by the blue words. iow, regeneration/born again and salvation occur together. You cannot have one without the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Red words are the exact same words at end of v.5; "you have been saved".

Green words show the means of HOW "you have been saved". So, iow, faith PRECEDES salvation.

So, from v.5, since both regeneration and salvation are equated and occur at the same time, faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

So, Calvinists have it exactly backwards.

In fact the Bible teaches that God saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Notice the obvious order here: one believes and then God is pleased to save the believer.

If Calvinism were the truth, Paul would have written it this way: God was pleased...to save those HE CHOSE.

There are NO verses that link election to salvation. Another Calvinist error.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If a person never believes its because Christ never died for them as one of His Sheep Jn 10:16
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

If you were never one of Christs Sheep, He never died for you, you were never Justified, so you cannot and will not never believe. Only the Just shall live by Faith.

Fascinating that you would mention John 10 and who Jesus would die for.

In v.26 Jesus clearly tells unbelievers that they are not of "MY SHEEP".

But, wait a minute!! Who did Jesus say He WOULD DIE FOR in that chapter?

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. Notice that Jesus DIDN'T SAY "MY SHEEP".
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. iow, anyone can "enter through the gate (faith in Jesus) and be saved.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

v.14 and 15 mentions both "My sheep" and "the sheep", so Jesus clearly recognized there were His own sheep and simply all the sheep, bu the words "the sheep".

So, in chapter 10, Jesus very plainly teaches that He would die for everyone.

If He would die only for those who would believe, He would have said so in this chapter.

iow, v.7 would have used "My sheep", not "the sheep".
v.11 would have used "My sheep" not "the sheep".
v.15 would ahve used "My sheep" not "the sheep".

Jesus knew exactly what He was talking about. But Calvinists seem quite confused as to what Jesus was teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Nope. Righteousness is imputed at the time a person believes.

Thats false, the righteousness that has always been imputed is received and realized at the time the Justified person believes. It may be appropriate to say it was imputed to their mind and heart when they believed.

They were righteous before God by Christs death while ungodly, an unbeliever. Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Nope. According to 1 Cor 2:6, Paul and those who were more mature (perfect = of full age, mature) spoke of deeper spiritual truths ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom according to 1 Cor 2:7:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [of full age, mature]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom [deeper spiritual truths than the gospel], which God ordained before the world unto our glory

Its talking about the Gospel. The Gospel is a Mystery, and its Spiritual, and its hidden wisdom of God. Preaching Christ is preaching the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Gospel Paul says is a Mystery Eph 6:19

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

There is no way you can get around it, the natural man doesnt receive the Gospel and cannot understand it 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The them that are perfect are the born again ones who have the Spirit, so that verse confirms that only a special group of people, the perfect [in Christ] can and will receive and believe the Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

Intentionally obtuse.
.

There is no way around it, the natural unregenerate man cannot understand the Gospel, not spiritually, thats what Paul means:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Gospel is considered the spiritual things of God. Paul wrote here that he sowed unto them spiritual things, referring to the Gospel 1 Cor 9:11

If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Now what spiritual things is Paul referring to ? Look back at 1 Cor 2:1-2

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[brightfame52]

One issue with your dogma is you believe faith on the part of mankind is "works" and I have shown you that God specifically tells us faith is not works.

That is truth you have not allowed God to work in your heart. You argue against God when you insist faith = works.
.

I have never denied Justification by Faith, but you deny Justification by the Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[brightfame52]

The words you add to Scripture do not change the truth of Scripture into your rendering.
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Those verses are talking about the saved world of men. There are no lost men in the saved world.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

you are so embroiled in propping up your dogma that you wholly miss the point!

No escaping it, if you want to bring mans faith into the equation, you make his faith a law condition Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Faith is required under the Law, and so you are under the law with your teaching. And so hear this:

Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.

Thats what you doing. Make your human faith a condition man must perform in order to be saved by God. All you have done is reduced the condition list down to one, mans faith. You believe Christ can shed His blood for an individuals sins, et it does nothing, except man exercises faith. Thats law and denial of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have never denied Justification by Faith, but you deny Justification by the Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

v.9 is the "what" we must believe in per v.1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

So, v.1 says our justificationis THROUGH FAITH. v.9 tells us what our faith must be IN.

So, together, v.1 and v.9 tell us that we are justified through faith in His blood.

bf52 prefers to ignore that faith is the key, so he ignores it and only admits to v.9.

This is because he has rejected the biblical teaching that Jesus Christ died for everyone. He believes the Calvinist talking point that Christ died ONLY FOR the "elect", or the "frozen chosen" etc.

He rejects that Jesus died for everyone, in spite of the verses that plainly say so. All to protect his theology. Which is unbiblical.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The natural man does not receive the Gospel, and cannot because he cannot understand it since its spiritually appraised. 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

true!
but the natural man can understand his guilt in the presence of God and choose to accept to repent of them. then the natural man becomes spiritual and the things of God become wise unto him.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Then according to your own dogma, you are justified by works of the law:

False accusation ! But thats what you believe by making faith the natural mans duty to get Justified. The natural man is under the natural law of Adam, for hes natural 1 Cor 15:46


Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural mans obligation is to the law/command of God, so his faith must be in accordance with the law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[brightfame52]

Then according to your own dogma, you are justified by works of the law:

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And just for clarification, I said:

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In response to my statement, you say that I said you "denied Justification by Faith".

I did not say you "denied Justification by Faith".

I said "you believe faith on the part of mankind is 'works' "

So respond to what I actually said. Do not veer off track to your made up non-issue.
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You teach, falsely may I add, that Faith is a requirement that the natural man must meet in order to get Justified before God. Now be honest dont you believe and teach that ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

All I am doing is holding you to the truth of Scripture and shining a light on the error of your dogma.

No you corrupt the word of Grace, and you turn a Spiritual Grace, Faith, into a natural mans natural ability to perform so that God will Justify them. Yet Faith is of Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Now you say it is of Faith that it might be by mans natural freewill !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Nope. You project onto me the error of your dogma.

You project your dogma on yourself. Its you that says faith is a requirement that the man has to perform in order for God to Justify them, whereas no scripture says that.

You carelessly go to Rom 12:3 and falsely state that all men naturally are given Faith, when Rom 12:3 is speaking about the Body of Christ Rom 12

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

I have shown you that all men dont have Faith 2 Thess 3:2

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.