Sense And Nonsense...

[Evmur]

"

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the​

knowledge of The SON Of God, unto a perfect man,​

unto the measure of the stature of The Fulness Of Christ”​

(Eph. 4:13).​

It is amazing to me how some theologians can get things so mixed
up—how they can take something simple and make it complex. As
one old-timer puts it, “Some people are educated beyond their
intelligence.”

The Bible is God’s revelation to man. The word “revelation” means
that the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God to us. This reflects God’s
intention that His Word be understood by everyone, not just the scholar...

Christians, who for years thought they understood what the Bible clearly
says, are now confused because certain folks have come into their assem-
bly and told them that the Bible doesn’t really mean what it says...

...Should you fire your pastor?...

...We, the Body of Christ, need to reach unity in doctrine—unity of the
faith, the body of truth committed to the Apostle Paul. Look around
and it quickly becomes obvious that this condition has not been met...

...Is it wrong to pray?...Does all really mean all?...

...If God is not involved in physical things today, if He does not answer
prayer today, if He is disinterested in what is going on in the world
today, then why bother—we may as well be atheists. For all practical
purposes, this teaching is the same as Deism or Gnosticism...
"
(D Havard)

FULL study:
Sense And Nonsense

GRACE And Peace...

It didn't happen under Paul's own ministry for quite apart from Galatia he had to bewail to Timothy that all Asia had turned away from him. The Lord would seem to say that towards the end of the age folk will fall away ... let we who love God, love His word, remain faithful and keep plugging away. God will use us.

 

[Gideon300]

Yes, I suppose it is possible that scholars in general can come up with different interpretations but this is not usually the case for evangelical bible believing scholars. So just removing the unbeliever scholars from the discussion, (I would never read these people) and discussing only evangelical scholars.

It is not the norm for 5 evangelical scholars who author a commentary on Luke to have different interpretations. Not even among 10 or 15 authors and separate commentaries. Especially modern works. I am reading from 7 different authors and commentaries on Luke and these authors have an array of denominational backgrounds and yet they are all in agreement in interpretation of what Luke was most likely intending. Some have a little more insight than others but none of them are coming up with different interpretations.

However it is very common for 10 or 15 average believers to come up with different interpretations of any passage in Luke.
Why? Ignorance. Pure unadulterated ignorance.

Evangelicals argue about:
Anything and everything to do with the last days.
The salvation of the soul as a distinct experience from being born again
Whether or not the spirit and the soul are the same thing
OSAS
Can divorced people remarry
Same sex marriage, yes or no
Holiness perfection in this life
Universalism (all people will be saved one way or another)
Cessationism

There are likely more but that's a list off the top of my head. Some are important, others trivial.

 

[Gideon300]

The modern concept of "Berean" to mean "you only need the OT for answers" is backwards and contrary to scripture.

I was not aware of that wrong interpretation. "Berean" to me means not uncritically accepting every teaching just because the pastor says so. For example, I was a member of a church where the pastor preached on Exodus, implying that everyone was rebellious and promoting legalism. He thought he was Moses leading the people to his version of the promised land. I spent hours looking at what real leadership was and the place of the Law in the NT church. I found no justification for his concepts and much to contradict him. Eventually I had to leave. Better to leave than be a continuing source of dissent.

 

[Amanuensis]

Evangelicals argue about:
Anything and everything to do with the last days.
The salvation of the soul as a distinct experience from being born again
Whether or not the spirit and the soul are the same thing
OSAS
Can divorced people remarry
Same sex marriage, yes or no
Holiness perfection in this life
Universalism (all people will be saved one way or another)
Cessationism

There are likely more but that's a list off the top of my head. Some are important, others trivial.

The average evangelical believer argues more about them than the evangelical scholars do and so far all of the commentaries I have from authors from different denominations say the same thing about 1 Cor 7. So this idea that they all differ is an accusation I am not finding to be as common as people think. A lot of anti scholar accusations getting tossed around. Lots of accusations about the uselessness of commentaries but not by anyone who has read them, only by those who don't. Which is typical ignorance that people wallow in and boast about it thinking it is good to be so ignorant and not read commentaries.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

After praying and trusting the Holy Spirit for insight my next step is to read from an evangelical theologian who has spent decades researching and writing on that book of the bible. Or actually more than one author. I will reference several.

Yep. Fair enough. All things considered though, for me personally I hope to have my spiritual antenna fine tuned towards the Holy Spirit. He is the Best of the best when it comes to theology, and has full knowledge of the true Christian way. In the event I have knocked my antenna though, I hope I'm close by others that have striven to have their antennas finely tuned to the Holy Spirit as well, and who will help me stay on the track that leads to where Jesus is. That is more likely to be by a John or Jill with the same rank as me. I don't trust people that merely have a head knowledge of scripture, even Satan has that!

 

[arthurfleminger]

"

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the​

knowledge of The SON Of God, unto a perfect man,​

unto the measure of the stature of The Fulness Of Christ”​

(Eph. 4:13).​

It is amazing to me how some theologians can get things so mixed
up—how they can take something simple and make it complex. As
one old-timer puts it, “Some people are educated beyond their
intelligence.”

The Bible is God’s revelation to man. The word “revelation” means
that the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God to us. This reflects God’s
intention that His Word be understood by everyone, not just the scholar...

Christians, who for years thought they understood what the Bible clearly
says, are now confused because certain folks have come into their assem-
bly and told them that the Bible doesn’t really mean what it says...

...Should you fire your pastor?...

...We, the Body of Christ, need to reach unity in doctrine—unity of the
faith, the body of truth committed to the Apostle Paul. Look around
and it quickly becomes obvious that this condition has not been met...

...Is it wrong to pray?...Does all really mean all?...

...If God is not involved in physical things today, if He does not answer
prayer today, if He is disinterested in what is going on in the world
today, then why bother—we may as well be atheists. For all practical
purposes, this teaching is the same as Deism or Gnosticism...
"
(D Havard)

FULL study:
Sense And Nonsense

GRACE And Peace...

You say, "
...We, the Body of Christ, need to reach unity in doctrine—unity of the
faith, the body of truth committed to the Apostle Paul. Look around
and it quickly becomes obvious that this condition has not been met..."

You make a very valid point! We claim that the Bible alone, Sola Scriptura, is our only source of truth. But how can that be???????????????? If you look at all the different messages/thoughts/interpretations of scripture on this Chat board, no one can agree with each other as to what the Bible/Scripture means. We all interpret it differently. And 'different interpretations' are certainly not the Holy Spirit leading us to all truth. If we believe differently then, many and most are just wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We disagree on almost every major tenet of the Bible.

 

[Jocund]

And 'different interpretations' are certainly not the Holy Spirit leading us to all truth.

How can you be so sure?

What if the Holy Spirit leads each of us to the understanding we need at different points of our life?

Have you considered the interpretation that scripture is a living thing that speaks differently to different people at different times of their lives?

Disagreement is not necessarily an indication that many people are wrong. It could be the case that many are wrong, but disagreement between interpretations by itself does not necessarily make that the case. If an interpretation necessarily contradicts scripture then it is necessarily wrong. If it does not contradict scripture it is not necessarily wrong.

need to reach unity in doctrine—unity of the
faith

Ears and eyes each perceive differently despite being united within one body.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

How can you be so sure?

What if the Holy Spirit leads each of us to the understanding we need at different points of our life?

Have you considered the interpretation that scripture is a living thing that speaks differently to different people at different times of their lives?

Disagreement is not necessarily an indication that many people are wrong. It could be the case that many are wrong, but disagreement between interpretations by itself does not necessarily make that the case. If an interpretation necessarily contradicts scripture then it is necessarily wrong. If it does not contradict scripture it is not necessarily wrong.



Ears and eyes each perceive differently despite being united within one body.

True. But sometimes I think people can take that reasoning to justify sin in their lives. We just need to be very careful, particularly when it comes to matters of morality. God has set aside pastors and others to help with counsel too. I personally don’t know of one in my neighbourhood I could refer anyone to, but hopefully, or rather God willing, they’ll be around somewhere.

 

[Jocund]

God has set aside pastors and others to help with counsel too. I personally don’t know of one in my neighbourhood I could refer anyone to, but hopefully, or rather God willing, they’ll be around somewhere.

Maybe it's you

 

[arthurfleminger]

How can you be so sure?

What if the Holy Spirit leads each of us to the understanding we need at different points of our life?

Have you considered the interpretation that scripture is a living thing that speaks differently to different people at different times of their lives?

Disagreement is not necessarily an indication that many people are wrong. It could be the case that many are wrong, but disagreement between interpretations by itself does not necessarily make that the case. If an interpretation necessarily contradicts scripture then it is necessarily wrong. If it does not contradict scripture it is not necessarily wrong.



Ears and eyes each perceive differently despite being united within one body.

You say that disagreement isn't an indication that people are wrong. Sorry, but you are wrong when you say that concerning God's word. If you disagree with the true meaning of God's word, if you misinterpret scripture, then you aren't living in God's truth. When two disagree about the meaning of God's truth, either one of them or maybe both of them are wrong and don't have the truth within them.

You go to great pains to 'twist things' to get differing opinions on scripture to be right. Chubby Checker would have been proud of your effort.

You go on further to say that, "despite our differences we are united within one body." You're joking right???? Since when have we been united? What store are you buying your horse blinders at?

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Maybe it's you

Well, a pastor is an overseer, is a shepherd, is a bishop, is an elder.... I'm elderly, but that doesn't necessarily equip me to be an elder. If however I was with a group of Christians that fellowshipped regularly together, and they grew in number such that they found it difficult to carefully watch over each other's welfare, then we'd look to appoint a married man that fulfils the criteria Paul outlined, from within our ranks to take on a pastoral role.

I'm not married, and haven't brought up children, and therefore would not be able to empathise sufficiently with couples and families in the group in their dealing with the difficulties they will encounter in their lives. I also tend to be a bit of a roamer. I could help a pastor develop an understanding of what his role entails, and remain with him to help him along the way, but after a while I'd have to move on to let that group develop it's nucleus and fellowship without interference from me.

If the elder needed an assistant to help him fulfil his pastoral care responsibilities, then we'd look for a person from within the fellowship to take on the responsibilities of a deacon.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

After praying and trusting the Holy Spirit for insight my next step is to read from an evangelical theologian

If I need to ask something about scripture, I'm going to ask God myself first, and if I feel still confused then I'll ask people that have proven insight into God's ways

Precious friends, hopefully with Bible study Rules in mind, Correct?

"It is far better for Christians, when uncertain about some
difficult Bible truth, to keep quiet until they receive Light from
the Holy Spirit.” (JC O'Hair)

Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[RichMan]

The average evangelical believer argues more about them than the evangelical scholars do and so far all of the commentaries I have from authors from different denominations say the same thing about 1 Cor 7. So this idea that they all differ is an accusation I am not finding to be as common as people think. A lot of anti scholar accusations getting tossed around. Lots of accusations about the uselessness of commentaries but not by anyone who has read them, only by those who don't. Which is typical ignorance that people wallow in and boast about it thinking it is good to be so ignorant and not read commentaries.

Is it your belief that not reading commentaries makes one ignorant?

 

[Amanuensis]

Yep. Fair enough. All things considered though, for me personally I hope to have my spiritual antenna fine tuned towards the Holy Spirit. He is the Best of the best when it comes to theology, and has full knowledge of the true Christian way. In the event I have knocked my antenna though, I hope I'm close by others that have striven to have their antennas finely tuned to the Holy Spirit as well, and who will help me stay on the track that leads to where Jesus is. That is more likely to be by a John or Jill with the same rank as me. I don't trust people that merely have a head knowledge of scripture, even Satan has that!

Yes, I do believe it is God's method for us to receive from other members in the body of Christ. It is God's method to use our brothers and sisters to speak grace to us and edify us.

I would not suggest that anyone waste their time reading from scholars with mere head knowledge.

Read from those who believe in being born again and having the Holy Spirit to lead them like you do.

I don't like these preachers who are all emotional hype but really not delivering any biblical content to feed people. Some say that they like those kinds of preachers but I believe it is because they haven't heard one that focuses on the message that the author intended.

This message will be the one that really transforms them, and when they experience that encounter with God they will want more of it and they will recognize the pabulum they used to listen to as just that.

I have seen this played out in real life. A teaching using a scripture and teaching some clever application that was clearly not what the author was thinking, but everyone loves it and says it helped them. The message was not false. There were other passages that could have been used but the one that was used had an intended message and that was not taught. Then a teacher come along and teaches that intended message and the impact on the people is phenomenally greater and they retain it and speak about it often as this truth guides their lives now. It is a wonderful sight to see. The intended inspired message transforming people and making them into the image of Christ where as the happy self help message didn't do that. It had no inspiration from the Holy Spirit because it was not what the author intended to be understood from the text. It's not a lie but the message that had the power was skipped and not discussed.

My objective in reading from evangelical scholars is because they claim that their goal is to identify that intended message that the authors were thinking when they wrote it. Which of course is the message that the Holy Spirit intended when He inspired them.

Too often well meaning 'spiritual' brothers and sisters come up with meanings that they say the Holy Spirit showed them that are not what the author intended. I say, well that is fine that you got that from that passage but here is what the author meant and then make sure that they apply that message to their lives as well because that is the most important one. sensus plenior has value but is second place to the initial intended meaning of the author. This is the BRASS RING of every evangelical Spirit Filled Scholar and why I read them to help me in obtaining the same objective.

 

[Amanuensis]

Is it your belief that not reading commentaries makes one ignorant?

Not learning makes one ignorant. Learning can be achieved by several paths.

 

[RichMan]

Not learning makes one ignorant. Learning can be achieved by several paths.

I somewhat agree.
Learning from someone who does not know the truth make one more ignorant.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

In my world and the pastors I have heard from various denominations and non denominations over the decades a scholarly pastor is very rare.

We could use more. By scholar I mean at the very minimum, those that can read the NT in Greek and are familiar with the manuscripts and the variants.

I would say that the main reason we have pastors that make mistakes in interpretations of scripture is that they are NOT scholarly.

Going to school to learn how to preach the scriptures is not profitable. Paul did not even confer with the other apostles,but went off to himself, and the Holy Spirit within him was his instructor. This method still remains today. elders (preachers) are called by God and instructed by the Holy Spirit within them.

 

[Amanuensis]

Going to school to learn how to preach the scriptures is not profitable. Paul did not even confer with the other apostles,but went off to himself, and the Holy Spirit within him was his instructor. This method still remains today. elders (preachers) are called by God and instructed by the Holy Spirit within them.

There is no contradiction in learning and being anointed by the Spirit. And Paul could read and write in Koine Greek so there is that.

 

[Amanuensis]

I somewhat agree.
Learning from someone who does not know the truth make one more ignorant.

That is not that hard to avoid.

 

[Amanuensis]

Going to school to learn how to preach the scriptures is not profitable. Paul did not even confer with the other apostles,but went off to himself, and the Holy Spirit within him was his instructor. This method still remains today. elders (preachers) are called by God and instructed by the Holy Spirit within them.

There is no difference. Reading from a scholarly elder who is anointed by the Holy Spirit is the same thing.

We don't have to go to formal schools I agree. There is profit in learning.

Whether you enroll in a school to read good books or read them on your own there is always profit in learning.

If you read a book about homiletics or hermeneutics you will learn many profitable things. It is not required, but to say that it is not profitable can be quickly disproven.

Many can testify how they used to swing their legs back and forth, or scratch their scalps or say uh every third word and many other tics that disctracted from their message and after reading a book they stopped all that. Now people hang on their every word when they used to zone out. Communication is a science and an art and one of the most valuable, profitable things one learns in formal educations. Speaking and writing effectively is taught in all schools regardless of majors.

Those that don't learn these skills through either schooling or disciplined self education are usually obvious to all that hear them and they think they can just yell loud to make up for it, but that does not work. I am not impresses with your yelling and hype. I am trying to hear what you are communicating and often for many lazy preachers today, that isn't much.

School is not required. Learning is.