Biblical Predestination

[Aaron56]

Before the creation of the world, God saw that man would be reconciled to God in Christ. In the fullness of time, God reconciled mankind to Himself in Christ. We are, therefore, members of His body, parts of a spiritual Man. The body is corporate, but the spiritual Man is one—one body, many members. We are meant to be one with Christ in the same manner in which He is one with the Father.

Biblical predestination is that God always intended that when man was rescued, he would be conformed to the standard of Christ, for Christ is the excellence of the Godhead available for assembling man to Himself and, therefore to God. Assembled to Christ, who is the perfect incarnation of God in the earth as Son, we are individually sons of God because we are part of the corporate Son of God. That is why He could say, and it is an unalterable truth, that no man can come to the Father except through Christ for He is the way the Father is, He is the truth of who the Father is, and He has the life of the Father in Himself. Failing being assembled to the Son, there is no alternative pathway to God. We were foreordained to be conformed to the standard of Christ. This is the only form of predestination that is referenced in the Scriptures. All other discussions of predestination were attempts to conform biblical truths to Greek reasoning.

 

[Aaron56]

This took about 12 hours to approve.

 

[pottersclay]

I agee if i understand your post that all mankind was predestined.
That has always been my viewpoint.
It is not a church denomination, or sect of people.
That is why i very seldom use dead men commentaries or theological teachings they are full of idealisim and agendas.

 

[Aaron56]

I agee if i understand your post that all mankind was predestined.
That has always been my viewpoint.
It is not a church denomination, or sect of people.
That is why i very seldom use dead men commentaries or theological teachings they are full of idealisim and agendas.

Yes. That's my point.

 

[p_rehbein]

Man. The body is corporate, but the spiritual Man is one—one body, many members. We are meant to be one with Christ in the same manner in which He is one with the Father.

IMO: the "spiritual man" is one member/part of Gods Church. The Church is "one body with many members."

I have read your OP three times now, and am wondering if you have intentionally omitted free will? Free will is a very important part of the salvation process IMO, and according to the numerous Scriptures where it is stated that man is to make/has a choice to accept/believe in Jesus or not.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This took about 12 hours to approve.

That too was predestined.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Before the creation of the world, God saw that man would be reconciled to God in Christ.

That should say "believing men" not "man" (mankind). Believers are reconciled to God in and through Christ. But unbelievers are not.

 

[Aaron56]

IMO: the "spiritual man" is one member/part of Gods Church. The Church is "one body with many members."

I have read your OP three times now, and am wondering if you have intentionally omitted free will? Free will is a very important part of the salvation process IMO, and according to the numerous Scriptures where it is stated that man is to make/has a choice to accept/believe in Jesus or not.

The context is "Christ" not the individual believer.

Yes, choosing Christ as his/her savior is the only choice that changes the destiny of that person.

 

[Aaron56]

That should say "believing men" not "man" (mankind). Believers are reconciled to God in and through Christ. But unbelievers are not.

The only way men are reconciled to God is through Christ. The context of the paragraph is "Failing being assembled to the Son, there is no alternative pathway to God."

 

[p_rehbein]

The context is "Christ" not the individual believer.

Ok, but the statement below is confusing, in that it speaks of us/man.

(just saying)

Before the creation of the world, God saw that man would be reconciled to God in Christ. In the fullness of time, God reconciled mankind to Himself in Christ. We are, therefore, members of His body, parts of a spiritual Man. The body is corporate, but the spiritual Man is one—one body, many members. We are meant to be one with Christ in the same manner in which He is one with the Father.

The only way men are reconciled to God is through Christ. The context of the paragraph is "Failing being assembled to the Son, there is no alternative pathway to God."

I agree with this, certainly!

Maybe it is your use of "assembled" for the reconciling between God and man that is strange.

as·sem·ble
[əˈsembəl]

VERB
assembled (past tense) · assembled (past participle)

1. (of people) gather together in one place for a common purpose:
   "a crowd had assembled outside the gates"
   synonyms:
   come together · get together · gather · collect · meet · muster · rally · congregate · convene · flock together · foregather

I see this as refering to believers who "assemble" to praise and worship God in a Church Service.

To me, the below is easier to accept

rec·on·cile
[ˈrekənˌsīl]

VERB
reconciled (past tense) · reconciled (past participle)

1. restore friendly relations between:
   "she wanted to be reconciled with her father" ·
   [more]
   synonyms:
   make harmonious · restore harmony to · make peaceful · patch up · repair

Anyway, it was a nice Post, I just was wondering about the lack of free will being mentioned, and more "predestination" spoken of, which, of course, lends itself to one thinking of Calvin and his teachings.

God bless

 

[Chester]

That should say "believing men" not "man" (mankind). Believers are reconciled to God in and through Christ. But unbelievers are not.

Always in Scripture when the word "predestinate" is used it is believers who are predestinated. Unbelievers are never said to be predestinated.

When man chooses to have faith in Jesus, he becomes a part of God's plan for the church to be "conformed to the image of "Christ."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Before the creation of the world, God saw that man would be reconciled to God in Christ. In the fullness of time, God reconciled mankind to Himself in Christ. We are, therefore, members of His body, parts of a spiritual Man. The body is corporate, but the spiritual Man is one—one body, many members. We are meant to be one with Christ in the same manner in which He is one with the Father.

Biblical predestination is that God always intended that when man was rescued, he would be conformed to the standard of Christ, for Christ is the excellence of the Godhead available for assembling man to Himself and, therefore to God. Assembled to Christ, who is the perfect incarnation of God in the earth as Son, we are individually sons of God because we are part of the corporate Son of God. That is why He could say, and it is an unalterable truth, that no man can come to the Father except through Christ for He is the way the Father is, He is the truth of who the Father is, and He has the life of the Father in Himself. Failing being assembled to the Son, there is no alternative pathway to God. We were foreordained to be conformed to the standard of Christ. This is the only form of predestination that is referenced in the Scriptures. All other discussions of predestination were attempts to conform biblical truths to Greek reasoning.

The only way men are reconciled to God is through Christ. The context of the paragraph is "Failing being assembled to the Son, there is no alternative pathway to God."

amen it’s repeated many ways

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that cometh from above is above all: : he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All of the gospel message of course is based upon the fulfillment of what the prophets had always been saying would come later like the son being given all things and saving those who trust in him

“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s amazing how consistent the message is in the law prophets and psalms of the gospel to come later with Christ and now has come and through the apostles we can understand the cohesiveness of the simple message of Jesus Christ for the salvation of man

The new covenant was always promised through Jesus

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

great post thanks for sharing brother

 

[p_rehbein]

Always in Scripture when the word "predestinate" is used it is believers who are predestinated. Unbelievers are never said to be predestinated.

When man chooses to have faith in Jesus, he becomes a part of God's plan for the church to be "conformed to the image of "Christ."

The problem is that if one group of folks are "predestined" for salvation, then those that are not are "predestined" to not be saved. Two sides of the same "predestination" coin.

As well, Calvin wrote such ideas and published his T.U.L.I.P. thingy....

 

[p_rehbein]

CALVIN, OSAS, AND FREE WILL

The Calvinist's and the Calvinist's Lite guys (OSAS'ers) have one wee problem to deal with which they don't seem to be able to do, other than to either deny it's existence, or simply ignore it.

That would be FREE WILL.

Now, as for the Scripture they love to quote about no power able to tear us from Gods hand.......yes, that is true, but they do not properly understand what they are reading (in my opinion). Look at the Scripture passage:

Romans 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So many times I have stated that the Apostle wrote in two distinct styles: Thus Sayeth the Lord, and It would be better that, I would rather that..........these styles greatly change the scripture(s) they embody. The first is Thus Sayeth the Lord.......no argument, no debate, it is thus sayeth the Lord, and that is final. The second, however, is when Paul speaks his mind, his thoughts, feelings, opinions, and gives his advice/instructions as to what he believes would be best for believers/the Church. These ARE NOT commandments from God, they are Paul's words, and they are NOT meant to be carved in stone.

There are numerous examples of these in his Epistles. The first coming to mind is when he speaks about marriage:

1 Corinthians 7:6) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7) For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8) I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9) But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10) And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11) But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12) But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.


Important statements:

"by permission and not of commandment"
"For I would that all men"
"I command ye, yet not I, but the Lord"
"But the rest I speak, I, not the Lord"

He clearly shows the two styles here in this passage. When reading Paul's Epistles, one has to be able to distinguish one from the other to place the proper importance on what is being said.

How does this relate to the passage in Romans? It relates because what Paul is saying are HIS BELIEFS/FEELINGS/DESIRES, and they are not the Commandment of God. As well, he NEVER states that WE can or can not separate ourselves from God, and THAT is where free will comes into the picture. IF one believes we DO have free will, then one must understand that we DO have the power to separate ourselves from God. NO OTHER POWER.......NO OTHER POWER can do that! We, however, can. Either that, or free will is a lie as the Calvinsits believe.

God/Jesus WILL NEVER leave or forsake us........Jesus said that, and it is in Scripture, and it is Truth! But that does not take away our free will to leave or forsake Him!

Folks can believe as they wish. I am simply saying why I believe as I do. There are numerous Scriptures that speak of believers "falling away" and even Christ Himself said it would happen. I believe Christ. And I also understand when Paul is writing "thus sayeth the Lord," and/or "I would rather that."

(edited to say)

Another instance where folks don't understand Paul's style is when he speaks of the grafting in of the natural branches. Won't post it now...........but folks know what it says. Dealing with all Jews being saved in the end...........This was Paul's OWN desire, and that was the context he wrote it in. And, even then, he placed a "disclaimer" in his comments............."if they continue not in disbelief."

Jesus Himself spoke of the falling away that would come. People who turned from God back to earthly desires.......FREE WILL is TRUTH! As such, Calvin was completely wrong.

 

[p_rehbein]

(additional comments)

Regarding O.S.A.S., in my opinion, it is easiest to approach the discussion by breaking it down into three parts.
1: The conflict between O.S.A.S. and Free Will
2: The teachings of Christ
3: The teachings of the Apostle Paul

I want to start with the conflict between O.S.A.S. and free will, simply because if we can not resolve that, then there is no hope of any resolution between the two beliefs.

I firmly believe in Free Will, and I posted a Thread showing 4 pages of Scripture which I believe clearly establishes that man was given the gift of Free Will by God. In fact, I believe that the first gift God gave man was "life." The second was "free will."
Any who wish to know my reasons for believeing in Free Will can go to the Thread and read the Scriptures I posted.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-free-will-revisited.180137/

The basis of O.S.A.S. (in my opinion) is that once man is saved (whatever definition one chooses to use), neither any power in the heavens or the earth, NOR he can separate him from his fellowship with God. His status as a child of God and heir to the Promise. I fully agree that God will never leave or forsake man, and that no other power in the heavens or the earth can separate man from God's fellowship, but man (if free will is Truth) has the power to do so. It is also important to understand that in Romans, Chapter 8, when Paul spoke of this, he said "nor any other creature," (vs. 39). Key there is "any other creature." Paul never says "we" can not separate ourselves from God. In fact, what Paul says is:
"shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." God loves all men. Those in His fellowship (His children) and those apart from Him (sinners). So, Paul is correct in that no thing, or person can stop God from loving us, but that is not the same as a person turning their back on God and denying His love and fellowship.

The basis of Free Will (in my opinion) is that man has the power to freely choose his destiny. He can choose to accept Christ as Savior, and choose to remain in His loving arms, OR he can choose to turn his back on God and deny Christ, which immediately separates him from God's fellowship, and his eternal status with God.

Therein lies the conflict. O.S.A.S. (if it is true) would negate Free Will once a person is saved. Their God given gift to freely choose would be taken back by God, and they would no longer possess the ability to choose to remain in His fellowship, or turn away from His fellowship. That, in my opinion, is nothing more than Calvinist Lite. Neither salvation, nor free will can be a gift IF the recepient of the gift has no choice in the acceptance of or denial of the gift. Thus, if it is not a gift, then it is salvation forced upon those God chooses to force it upon.

Everything in Scriptue I read convinces me that God seeks loving, faithful children who choose to believe in Him, and choose to be in His fellowship, and not people that are required to love him and be in His fellowship. If a person is required to do anything, and has no choice in what they can or can not do, than that person is little more than a slave (in my opinion), and I do not believe God wants a Church of slaves to love, worship and praise Him. If this was His desire, He could have simply created a race of people to do just that.

One additional thought concerning Free Will is the word "if." "If" indicates that there is a choice to be made. Start in Matthew, Chpt. 1, vs. 1 and read to the last verse of Jude, and every time you find the word "if," determine what choice is being presented to man. That reveals that man certainly has free will in my opinion. Christ Himself (on more than one occasion) stated that He came to earth not to do HIS will, but Gods will, and, in the Garden, prayed "nevertheless, not MY will, but THY will be done." That is free will established by Christ Himself in my opinion. He chose to do Gods will, and not to do what He wished or desired. "If at all possible, let this cup pass......"

 

[p_rehbein]

(additional comments)

Regarding free will........Jesus said:
Luke 22:41) And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
[Jesus was clearly struggling with His choice to do God's will, and not His own...He had a choice, and He chose to do God's will. This is also shown in the 6th Chapter of John]
38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[Again, it is shown in the 26th Chapter of Matthew)
51:And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
[He chose to do God's will.....He was not forced]

[He also taught that we had the ability to choose]
John 14:14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[we have a choice to believe in Christ, or not, and He shows that some choose to and some choose not to]
18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[Another clear example of mans ability to choose}
Joshua 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
To end this part for now, let me say that the sadest example of the exercise of free will in Scripture is Lucifer himself, and the angels who chose to follow him rather than God........

 

[John146]

Always in Scripture when the word "predestinate" is used it is believers who are predestinated. Unbelievers are never said to be predestinated.

When man chooses to have faith in Jesus, he becomes a part of God's plan for the church to be "conformed to the image of "Christ."

Yes! Once man calls upon Jesus for salvation, the Father predestinates him to the future adoption, which is the redemption of the body. It is when we will finally become conformed to the image of his Son. Believers are known as sons but we do not bear the image of his Son.

 

[Chester]

The problem is that if one group of folks are "predestined" for salvation, then those that are not are "predestined" to not be saved. Two sides of the same "predestination" coin.

As well, Calvin wrote such ideas and published his T.U.L.I.P. thingy....

I do not think there is any Scripture that says that unbelievers are predestined to not be saved.

Thus the way I see it is that all who do not believe are not predestined. But when a person chooses to believe in Jesus, he/she becomes a part of God's plan for the church (which was established from the foundation of the world).

It is only when a person uses human logic and reasoning (rather than direct textual study) that one winds up with TULIP.

 

[FredVB]

There is predestination, from God, for repentant believers who God foreknew, that they are secured to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[JaumeJ]

All in this age who come to Jesus Yeshua in Spirit and Truth are come to the Father and foreknown from this wicked age.