Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Inquisitor]

which is the important part here: the fact of love, who we love, or how we love?

in the case of our Lord --

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, ​

that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ​

(John 3:16) ​

​

is it His love that saves? if so wouldn't the whole cosmos be saved, because He so loved the whole of creation?
but no - He says whosoever believes will have everlasting life.

it seems to me it hinges on belief - that love is a necessary but insufficient condition.
thus we remain unqualified to judge one another: someone may have love but remain in unbelief, and someone may believe but, because of vexation of sin, their love is grown cold and appear inevident to our dim, human eyes.
only God searches the heart

what do i mean? an example: Lot did not speak to his married daughters, nor did Lot speak to his sons before he was snatched away from Sodom. shall i say then Lot was not saved? affirming what i read in Genesis, Peter tells me he is righteous, and that his soul was vexed by the wickedness he saw. for what reason did he refrain from speaking to his sons and daughters, other than this vexation? should i imagine he had no love for them? if i say that, how do i address 1 John 3:14?

Of course it hinges on the belief in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

By grace through that belief (faith) in Jesus Christ.

The Koine Greek word for 'belief' is pistis.

The Koine Greek word for 'faith' is the same word pistis.

 

[Jackson123]

Of course it hinges on the belief in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

By grace through that belief (faith) in Jesus Christ.

The Koine Greek word for 'belief' is pistis.

The Koine Greek word for 'faith' is the same word pistis.

And that faith manifest in love

 

[FreeGrace2]

Haha. I notice you clearly ignored the teaching, of both the Lord and St. Peter, that apostates are in a worse state than ignorant unbelievers.

Actually, you didn't notice my explanation of what Peter said.

And I find it very interesting that you seem so intent on contradicting Jesus. Why do you do that?

Jesus SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. And in John 5:24 He said in very plain words that believers POSSESS eternal life. That means they possess it WHEN they believe.

So, go ahead, and keep trying to contradict Jesus. But it won't work.

This doesn't fit with your teaching, but it is nonetheless true, because it is the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Regarding the doctrine of eteranl security, Jesus' teaching is found in John 5:24 and 10:28.

Unless you want to place ignorant unbelievers, beaten with fewer stripes in Heaven, you cannot Biblically place apostates and atheists there. Without faith it is impossible to please God and those who die unrepentant in unbelief are lost.

Let me ask you a question. We'll see whether or not you will actually answer it.

The Bible tells us very plainly who will be condemned. Do you know who that will be?

I'll address the rest later, but as for: "I suppose you actually have a verse that says what you opine here"

Yes, I have several, beside those I cited above, but here are just two:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Heb 11:6)

How does this verse relate to eternal security? Could you explain yourself? The verse teaches what pleases God; faith. And those who "earnestly see Him" must believe that He rewards those who do seek Him.

Since everyone in Heaven will please God, and praise Him day and night, it is impossible for those without faith, like atheists to go to Heaven. That is Christianity 101.

Now you've just conflated different subjects. That's NOT how to have a discussion.

The ONLY ISSUE is whether a person EVER received the gift of eternal life.

As for sinning unto death, most commentators understand apostasy is a sin unto death as per 1 Jn 5:

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 Jn 5:16)

The "sin unto death" refers to God's discipline which is physical death.

This is Paul's comments on God's discipline:
1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (physical death).

 

[Inquisitor]

And that faith manifest in love

Yes it does, after all God is love. Could it be any other way?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Your answer was not based on the text (Romans 2) but is the interpretation that you were taught.

Paul spends nine chapters explaining why the Jews failed in their quest for salvation. The letter to the Romans was addressed to the church in Rome. The church in Rome consisted of Jews and Gentiles. The Jews in the Roman church were judging the Gentiles. Paul strongly addresses the Jews in the Roman church and starts dealing with the Jews in chapter 2.

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

So your saying that Paul is talking to the Gentiles in chapter two. How can that be, when Paul states 'the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you'.

The Gentiles in Rome knew nothing of the law as they were never under the law.

Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Rome.

Your interpretation is seriously corrupt. This is a distraction from the conversation.

Is it possible Paul took the time to speak directly to the Jews but also spoke to the Gentiles? After all, the book is not called "Roman Jews", it's called "Romans", right?

 

[Jackson123]

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1. It seem not say believe for an hour than deny for the rest of the life still save
2. We may correct Jesus and add you don't need to endure to make reader know that only need believe a minute than fell free to reject Jesus and save

 

[Phoneman-777]

Haven't you even read John 10:28?? Jesus said those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

He NEVER said they would perish IF a recipient later on rejects it.

Sorry in advanced for the lengthy response:
We can't isolate one verse or concurring verses from the others which have as much impact on the topic and then build a doctrine - that's called "subjective" reasoning, is it not?

Yes, John 10:28 KJV is right as rain...yet Hebrews 6 says those who cannot be renewed again unto repentance (proving they are SAINTS who've previously repented) will be lost, and the "many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV which will be lost are SAINTS because "agape" is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments, but the SINNER can't keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

You see? If we take into consideration all the verses concerning salvation, the only doctrine that can be built is that salvation is conditional -- on condition that we accept and retain Jesus in our hearts. Works are neither a VIP pass in or restraining order keeping us out - they're simply the outward evidence of whether Jesus has been inwardly accepted and retained in our heart, or expelled.

Why don't you quit being so dramatic and hysterical. You are making Jesus out to be a LIAR. He SAID those He gives eternal life to shall never perish. So then, on the basis of what HE DOES, the recipient of eternal life shall never perish. That is exactly what John 10:28 means. Deal with it.

Yes, if we ignore all the other verses which deal with salvation, we would all be OSAS...but those of us who've been brave enough to examine everything the Bible says know the Bible teaches no such thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1. It seem not say believe for an hour than deny for the rest of the life still save

This is phony issue. No where does the Bible mention salvation requires believing for x days, years, decades, etc.

In fact, John 5:24 is clear enough. Those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. What does this mean? It means from the MOMENT the believer possesses eternal life. And, as you rightly point out, there is no time limit attached.

Which isn't the issue. The ONLY issue is when does a person receive the free gift of eternal life? This verse indicates WHEN they believe.

So, from the MOMENT of saving faith, that person 'SHALL NEVER PERISH', because Jesus said so in John 10:28.

2. We may correct Jesus and add you don't need to endure to make reader know that only need believe a minute than fell free to reject Jesus and save

Might as well give up here. You're not making any points with your phony issues.

John 5:24 teaches that the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life.
John 10:28 teaches that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

But, for some very strange reason, certain ones seem very bothered by the fact that Jesus made this promise about recipients of eternal life.

What Jesus did was GUARANTEE that from the MOMENT of faith in Him, that person would NEVER PERISH.

And Jesus gave no exceptions, like all these Arminians love to do.

Jesus' point was clear: it is on the basis of what Jesus DOES that people SHALL NEVER PERISH.

If Arminians (OSNAS) had their way, anyone who as much as sneezes wrong would have eternal life ripped from their souls and then they would be cast into the lake of fire.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost DO NOT BELIEVE either John 5:24 or John 10:28. Jesus' own words, btw.

 

[Jackson123]

Sorry in advanced for the lengthy response:
We can't isolate one verse or concurring verses from the others which have as much impact on the topic and then build a doctrine - that's called "subjective" reasoning, is it not?

Yes, John 10:28 KJV is right as rain...yet Hebrews 6 says those who cannot be renewed again unto repentance (proving they are SAINTS who've previously repented) will be lost, and the "many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV which will be lost are SAINTS because "agape" is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments, but the SINNER can't keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

You see? If we take into consideration all the verses concerning salvation, the only doctrine that can be built is that salvation is conditional -- on condition that we accept and retain Jesus in our hearts. Works are neither a VIP pass in or restraining order keeping us out - they're simply the outward evidence of whether Jesus has been inwardly accepted and retained in our heart, or expelled.
Yes, if we ignore all the other verses which deal with salvation, we would all be OSAS...but those of us who've been brave enough to examine everything the Bible says know the Bible teaches no such thing.

Yep. We have to consider all verses

For example what happen if we read this title only part

How to kill

Oh this gentelman teach to kill, let call 911 report this crime
How to Kill Grass

There are four main ways to kill all the grass and weeds in your lawn. They require varying degrees of expense, time and effort.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Haven't you even read John 10:28?? Jesus said those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

He NEVER said they would perish IF a recipient later on rejects it.

We can't isolate one verse or concurring verses from the others which have as much impact on the topic and then build a doctrine - that's called "subjective" reasoning, is it not?

Let's not play games here. Deal with what I said. If I am incorrect, and you have the truth, it should be easy for you to refute my claims.

So, just do that, if you can. Did you notice my point about what Jesus DIDN'T say? Seems all you Arminians strongly believe that those given eternal life WILL PERISH if they leave the faith.

OK, so prove it. All you guys do is whine about OSAS. Prove it wrong by verses that clearly say that salvation can be lost.

Yes, John 10:28 KJV is right as rain...yet Hebrews 6 says those who cannot be renewed again unto repentance (proving they are SAINTS who've previously repented) will be lost

NO NO NO, it doesn't say they will be lost. It SAYS they won't be "renewed again to repentance". That isn't loss of salvation, by any stretch. And if it WAS, then you would have found and proven that the Bible is CONTRADICTORY. Is that your goal?

You say that John 10:28 is "right at rain". And then out of the other side of your mouth you CONTRADICT yourself by citing a verse that you think teaches loss of salvation.

How can a recipient of eternal life PERISH since Jesus said recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. How many is "never"? Got any idea?

and the "many" of Matthew 24:12 KJV which will be lost are SAINTS because "agape" is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments, but the SINNER can't keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

All the verses you can dig up which you think teach loss of salvation only prove how little of the Bible you understand.

John 10:28 PREVENTS AND REFUTES such an idea. Words mean things.

You see? If we take into consideration all the verses concerning salvation, the only doctrine that can be built is that salvation is conditional -- on condition that we accept and retain Jesus in our hearts.

If true, then there WILL BE a verse that clearly says that. So, go find it and get back to me.

In the meantime, I am resting on John 10:28 and what Jesus did for me, which GUARANTEES that I SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Works are neither a VIP pass in or restraining order keeping us out - they're simply the outward evidence of whether Jesus has been inwardly accepted and retained in our heart, or expelled.
Yes, if we ignore all the other verses which deal with salvation, we would all be OSAS

Seems you really believe that there are clear verses that DO teach eternal security. Yet, you also seem to believe that there are clear verses that teach loss of salvation. Hm. You've got a problem. A very big one.

...but those of us who've been brave enough to examine everything the Bible says know the Bible teaches no such thing.

Oh, so your some kind of braveheart, huh? Well, don't get so comfortable with all that bravery.

A very confused and conflicted person who is "brave" is STILL just as confused and conflicted. So your "bravery" won't get you very far.

otoh, if you can find clear verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost, you'd have a point.

But, in EVERY verse any of you share, I can easily point out that the verse DOESN'T plainly/clearly say that salvation can be lost.

One thing is very clear; the Bible is NOT contradicted, as you seem to think.

There are NOT verses that teach both eternal security AND loss of salvation. That would be quite insane.

God is not insane. So stop suggesting such a thing.

I have shown very clear verses that make clear that salvation is permanent. You haven't shown anything to the opposite. You just think you have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep. We have to consider all verses

Wrong. We have to consider ONLY the very clearly worded verses. And you guys don't have any.

Since Jesus SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He made very clear that there are NO CONDITIONS on recipients of eternal life to comply with in order to NOT perish.

Simply on the basis of being given that precious yet free gift, the recipient shall never never never, no not ever, perish.

That is the message from Jesus. Arminians seem to hate that message.

 

[Jackson123]

This is phony issue. No where does the Bible mention salvation requires believing for x days, years, decades, etc.

In fact, John 5:24 is clear enough. Those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. What does this mean? It means from the MOMENT the believer possesses eternal life. And, as you rightly point out, there is no time limit attached.

Which isn't the issue. The ONLY issue is when does a person receive the free gift of eternal life? This verse indicates WHEN they believe.

So, from the MOMENT of saving faith, that person 'SHALL NEVER PERISH', because Jesus said so in John 10:28.


Might as well give up here. You're not making any points with your phony issues.

John 5:24 teaches that the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life.
John 10:28 teaches that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

But, for some very strange reason, certain ones seem very bothered by the fact that Jesus made this promise about recipients of eternal life.

What Jesus did was GUARANTEE that from the MOMENT of faith in Him, that person would NEVER PERISH.

And Jesus gave no exceptions, like all these Arminians love to do.

Jesus' point was clear: it is on the basis of what Jesus DOES that people SHALL NEVER PERISH.

If Arminians (OSNAS) had their way, anyone who as much as sneezes wrong would have eternal life ripped from their souls and then they would be cast into the lake of fire.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost DO NOT BELIEVE either John 5:24 or John 10:28. Jesus' own words, btw.

Roman 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I like to read part of the verse, because faster

The wage of sin is death


We all sinner so we are all guaranty face death penalty it is what bible say

 

[Jackson123]

Wrong. We have to consider ONLY the very clearly worded verses. And you guys don't have any.

Since Jesus SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He made very clear that there are NO CONDITIONS on recipients of eternal life to comply with in order to NOT perish.

Simply on the basis of being given that precious yet free gift, the recipient shall never never never, no not ever, perish.

That is the message from Jesus. Arminians seem to hate that message.

Would you give a verse that say we have only read part of the verse?

 

[Jackson123]

He made very clear that there are NO CONDITIONS on recipients of eternal life to comply with in order to NOT perish.

Hmm,
We only need to believe a second than fell free to rob the bank for the rest of our life

 

[posthuman]

And that faith manifest in love

Proverbs 27:18
Whoever keeps the fig tree will eat its fruit;
So he who waits on his Master will be honored.

let us be patient in doing well;
our God will not fail =]

 

[posthuman]

Hmm,
We only need to believe a second than fell free to rob the bank for the rest of our life

I do feel free but I have no such desire
This is how I know He is at work in me

 

[Jackson123]

Proverbs 27:18
Whoever keeps the fig tree will eat its fruit;
So he who waits on his Master will be honored.

our God will not fail =]

Yep
Who wait the master will be honored

Seem it doesn't say only need wait a second then go what ever you want still honored

 

[Jackson123]

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Seem to me those verse encourage to consider all scripture

It say all scripture not say part scripture

 

[BroTan]

Funny thing, why wait? I have found that rest in Him now.

All over the bible, from the promise to Abraham in Genesis to the second coming of Jesus in Revelation, the Lord reveals that his kingdom will be on earth. This message is supposed to be good news to us, especially considering the condition of the world. We should be glad to know that God is going to straighten out the trouble and confusion that's presently in the world. Jesus even told us to pray for the fulfillment of his gospel, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). Jesus also warned us to repent (turn from our sins) and be prepared for the coming of his kingdom. If we truly believe the gospel, then we will obey God's commandments. "...The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9).

So the rest the Bible is talking about, is in the future. Nothing wrong with finding peace or having a peace of mind through Jesus, but when Paul talks about rest, he's referring to the future.

 

[BroTan]

The first resurrection is Sunday isn't it?

The first day of the week is Sunday.