Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
The words 'raised up' refers to dead physical bodies being resurrected UP out of the ground to be joined to the soil, who will be with Jesus as He ends the Trip and Armageddon and sets up His Millennial reign on earth.

No need to shout. I can hear you just fine. I'm going to adjust the rest of your loud post.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:

and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

NO terra firma in the heaven[/QUOTE]
I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

The discussion was about bodies and souls.[/QUOTE]


Because you keep wanting the spiritual body to be of the EARTH


1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Currently we are 'bearing' the earth. When our 'earth' part dies, we then bear 'the heavenly'.

If our EARTH body were resurrected, WE WOULD JUST BE BEARING THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY TWICE

and the heavenly NEVER.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sorry, but you didn't make that clear. I need full context in order to understand questions.

Many were raised from the graves at Jesus' crucifixion, and Jesus and His disciples also raised a number of people during His earthly ministry.

So, what people are you referring to?

Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

How can you think any of these received glorified bodies when 1 Cor 15:23 tells us in plain words WHEN "those who belong to Him" will be given glorified bodies??

Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FINALLY. Another resurrection is acknowledged.

FOR JESUS TO HAVE TAKEN ALL THE OT SAINTS TO HEAVEN,

THEY HAD TO BE RESURRECTED out from the dead.

This is just your opinion. Where does the Bible say or indicate they were? All the NT saints go to heaven when they die. Are they given resurrection bodies for that trip? Of course not. They are still waiting for the Second Advent when they will return to earth with Jesus and will be given their glorified bodies at the resurrection.

And what are we told about

how the dead are raised up? and with what body are we told they rise up in?

WE know the body THEY SOWED WAS NOT the body they were raised up in, but a bare grain, OF THAT BODY that was sown was maybe of wheat, or of some other grain

This is all about THE (singular) resurrection of "those who belong to Him", meaning EVERY saved person in history.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I don't care about "terra firms" in heaven. Why did you bring it up?

The discussion was about bodies and souls."

Because you keep wanting the spiritual body to be of the EARTH

I am very perplexed about your conclusions. Where do you get your ideas from. Certainly not from me. I've NEVER wanted that.

In fact, that is a ridiculous idea. All glorified bodies are directly from God, NOT of the earth. lol

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:



I never said anything about souls dying. Unsaved people die, and THEIR soul goes to torments, awaiting the LOF.

This is the question you asked me in post 3341.

What did you think about souls who die and where they go?

That was my reply.

So YOU DID say something about souls dying, though you posed it in a question, therefore the reality is you did, though you claim you did not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I never said anything about souls dying. Unsaved people die, and THEIR soul goes to torments, awaiting the LOF.

This is the question you asked me in post 3341.
What did you think about souls who die and where they go?
That was my reply.

So YOU DID say something about souls dying, though you posed it in a question, therefore the reality is you did, though you claim you did not.

Geeze louize. Really? I could have been a bit more clear, but I'm sure most people would have understood what I was asking.

Let me re-phrase:
What did you think about the souls of believers who die and where they go?

Does that help?

 

[kleronomos]

This is just your opinion.

AGAIN, in post 3341

YOU SAID
"Paradise is the same place as Abraham's bosom. That's where the thief next to Jesus went when he died. But after the resurrection, Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven"


So it wasn't just my opinion at all, those were your words.

 

[John146]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sorry, but you didn't make that clear. I need full context in order to understand questions.

Many were raised from the graves at Jesus' crucifixion, and Jesus and His disciples also raised a number of people during His earthly ministry.

So, what people are you referring to?

How can you think any of these received glorified bodies when 1 Cor 15:23 tells us in plain words WHEN "those who belong to Him" will be given glorified bodies??

Please explain.

Did these OT saints who arose after the resurrection live to die again? What happened to them?

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
I see just fine. What doesn't exist are any verses describing Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

Nothing here about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.


None of the verses say that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.

Apparently you aren't seeing so well.

The Bible does NOT say anything about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Jesus says you will never die and you will follow Me to be where I am and HE is in heaven

YOU CAN TRY and say that is NOT believers going to heaven, but it can be NOTHING ELSE.

I have NEVER SAID that I believed 'JESUS TAKES' glorified believers to heaven. THAT is your argument against the pre trib rapture theory that you are somehow bringing into this conversation. Please try and keep them straight.



The Bible says RAISED UP IN GLORY, I say YES, RAISED UP IN GLORY

but you say I AM WRONG, not because I believe what is written as it is written

but because WHAT YOU BELIEVE 'it means' is RETURNED AND THEN RAISED UP IN GLORY and what is ACTUALLY written doesn't matter.




It is written ...it is sown... it is raised

And that DOESN'T REALLY MEAN ... it is sown, spirit leaves, spirit returns, and then it is raised.

 

[kleronomos]

If true, you SHOULD HAVE provided "what is written". But seeing that you didn't, why should I believe your opinion?

You keep saying 'They are awaiting their resurrected body', never to give scripture. Why should I believe your opinion?

 

[kleronomos]

I flatly reject soul sleep. The Bible NEVER says that souls sleep.

Something else that has not been said, is now being brought into the conversation like it was. Is that because you have no where else to go in the conversation we are having?

 

[kleronomos]

You have a very narrow minded view of Scripture. The words "those who belong to Him" ABSOLUTELY mean all saved people.

So now you are taking parts of my responses and running with new thoughts? If you are done discussing what is on the table then just let me know. No need to start going in a bunch of directions irrelevant to the current conversation. Or do you just need to make a few more jabs and stabs? You know what, I'll give the other cheek.

 

[kleronomos]

There is NOTHING in 1 Cor 15:23 about "them that slept". I think you are simply conflating verses.

"those who belong to Jesus" means SAVED people. ALL of them. Or Scripture would have clarified.

I didn't list that verse, you did

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. There is ONE resurrection, which will be "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent.

I'm getting tired of these circles you keep going around in.

If you are convinced there are more than one resurrection of the saved, then quote each verse that describes the different ones. And include the timeline for each one.

I don't think you can do that. I'm very familiar with the NT.

You wrote it all on your own.

 

[kleronomos]

I gave you verses. It's up to you to believe them or not.

I believe all verses. Just not all interpretations given by others.

 

[ewq1938]

Correct.

After the Marriage, He returns back to Earth for the Millennial reign.

Oyster cut off part of what I said to make it seem I said something that I didn't say. He is a dishonest person and is now on my ignore list.

 

[FreeGrace2]

AGAIN, in post 3341

YOU SAID
"Paradise is the same place as Abraham's bosom. That's where the thief next to Jesus went when he died. But after the resurrection, Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven"

So it wasn't just my opinion at all, those were your words.

Did I say Jesus FIRST gave them glorified bodies? No, I didn't. He took souls to heaven. They are still waiting for their resurrection bodies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did these OT saints who arose after the resurrection live to die again? What happened to them?

The Bible doesn't tell us that detail. Doesn't matter. 1 Cor 15:23 is so clear. At THE (singular) resurrection, ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be glorified.

btw, if 1 Cor 15:23 didn't mean ALL saved people, then it WOULD HAVE said something like "most/some/part of those who belong to Him".

But Paul didn't clarify that. He simply said "THOSE who belong to Him" and if you want to argue that doesn't include ALL saved people, go argue with someone else. I'm not having it.

All saved people BELONG to Him. Period.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus says you will never die and you will follow Me to be where I am and HE is in heaven

YOU CAN TRY and say that is NOT believers going to heaven, but it can be NOTHING ELSE.

I have NEVER SAID that I believed 'JESUS TAKES' glorified believers to heaven. THAT is your argument against the pre trib rapture theory that you are somehow bringing into this conversation. Please try and keep them straight.

Maybe you have a memory issue, but when Jesus spoke John 14:1-3, He was STILL on earth and hadn't died yet. What He said wad fulfilled within 5 weeks, which is when He returned to heaven. And He didn't take them THEN. And you MIS-quoted what Jesus did say anyway.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You keep saying 'They are awaiting their resurrected body', never to give scripture. Why should I believe your opinion?

I'm getting tired of your tirade. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us WHEN ALL believers will receive their resurrection body. That is proof enough.

Believe it or not. Your call.