Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?
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The line of 'a saved person, WILL persevere.. WILL do good works.. WILL have a continuous abiding faith'.. that isn't biblical. It's Lordship salvation.. self effort involved in proving you have been saved.
John 3:16-- someone believes in Jesus.. they have eternal life. Full stop. Also Romans 10, John 5:24... plus many many many more scriptures.
Calvinism and OSAS are not the same thing. What a person does after being saved.. there is no guarantee of a continual abiding faith. Doesn't mean they were never saved if they fall into sin. Just means they need to rely on the Holy Spirit who is with them and guiding them. That's real relationship.
Believing in Jesus.. there will of course be fruit from having been saved. That isn't self effort of works though.. that's the result of having the Holy Spirit in your spirit!
Getting saved isn't a commitment to do works for Jesus.. it's acceptance that you can't reach heaven at all by good works and need deliverance from being lost. Good works-- is a thankyou to Jesus for what He has done.
Maybe you already believe this.
But just wanted to clarify that not all who hold to OSAS are calvinist at all.
John 3:16-- someone believes in Jesus.. they have eternal life. Full stop. Also Romans 10, John 5:24... plus many many many more scriptures.
Calvinism and OSAS are not the same thing. What a person does after being saved.. there is no guarantee of a continual abiding faith. Doesn't mean they were never saved if they fall into sin. Just means they need to rely on the Holy Spirit who is with them and guiding them. That's real relationship.
Believing in Jesus.. there will of course be fruit from having been saved. That isn't self effort of works though.. that's the result of having the Holy Spirit in your spirit!
Getting saved isn't a commitment to do works for Jesus.. it's acceptance that you can't reach heaven at all by good works and need deliverance from being lost. Good works-- is a thankyou to Jesus for what He has done.
Maybe you already believe this.
But just wanted to clarify that not all who hold to OSAS are calvinist at all.
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Nice try. But the verse says "they shrink back unto perdition" which is very clear that they end up lost. If you look at the Greek, it is the same word ἀπώλεια (apóleia) as in Mat 7:13 ["the way is broad that leads to destruction"] https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-39.htm
Similarly, when John 3:16, or Jn 10:28, which you quoted, speaks of never perishing, it is obviously speaking of the 2nd death, not the 1st: i.e. the burning in the lake of fire.
"I believe that context is king."
John 10:
"27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. Compare Mat 25 where it explains how His Sheep follow Him and why He separates them from the Goats at the Last Judgment. Never does He say, "You were OSAS and they were not, so come to Heaven".
They follow Him, i.e. they do the works He does, like the Scriptures I quoted in my last post show. And so He preserves them, and they never perish. If you want to never perish, you must also follow Him and obey Him, not only believe and trust Him, but do both imho.
They "passed from death unto life" i.e. from spiritual death to spiritual life. Now, 1 Jn 5:16-18 says one can pass back to death, i.e. spiritual death, after having passed to life: "16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." The same expressions of life and death are used in both places. Will you say one is spiritual and one is physical? No, the Holy Spirit is our Life, as many passages show, or Christ Himself is our Life. We lose Him if we sin very gravely.
This was Heb 10:29. The context spoke of the greatest physical punishment of temporal death. What can be worse than that? Clearly, only the eternal punishment, the second death, the lake of fire.
And the punishment for the crime of apostasy was physical death in the OT and is the lake of fire in the New. Judas committed apostasy and so Satan entered him at the Last Supper, as it is written. He not only suffered physical death but lost his soul in hell.
Now, let's discuss 2 other verses, if you still think you can reconcile the whole Bible with OSAS. Both are from Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
3. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10). Here, the condition to receive the crown is "be thou faithful unto DEATH" not faithfulness for a few moments only, which anyone can do. People want to make it easy for themselves. But the cost of True Discipleship to Jesus Christ is hard. Many modern errors would never have developed under Ongoing Martyrdom.
4. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:26-28).
Again, the Promise is Very Great, "Crown of Life", "Authority/Power over the Nations" etc, but the conditions also are clearly stated, not by a mere disciple, but by the Lord God Himself, Jesus Christ Our Savior. You must, with the help of His Grace, and the Power of His Spirit, overcome the evil that is in the world, and keep His works until the end, and then you will hear: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Again, the Lord doesn't say "you said a 30 second sinner's prayer, and did nothing else" but "thou has been faithful" over those little things God placed in his or her care while on Earth. And so, He repeats the same Promise, He will make that person "ruler over many".
God Bless.
Similarly, when John 3:16, or Jn 10:28, which you quoted, speaks of never perishing, it is obviously speaking of the 2nd death, not the 1st: i.e. the burning in the lake of fire.
"I believe that context is king."
John 10:
"27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. Compare Mat 25 where it explains how His Sheep follow Him and why He separates them from the Goats at the Last Judgment. Never does He say, "You were OSAS and they were not, so come to Heaven".
They follow Him, i.e. they do the works He does, like the Scriptures I quoted in my last post show. And so He preserves them, and they never perish. If you want to never perish, you must also follow Him and obey Him, not only believe and trust Him, but do both imho.
They "passed from death unto life" i.e. from spiritual death to spiritual life. Now, 1 Jn 5:16-18 says one can pass back to death, i.e. spiritual death, after having passed to life: "16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." The same expressions of life and death are used in both places. Will you say one is spiritual and one is physical? No, the Holy Spirit is our Life, as many passages show, or Christ Himself is our Life. We lose Him if we sin very gravely.
This was Heb 10:29. The context spoke of the greatest physical punishment of temporal death. What can be worse than that? Clearly, only the eternal punishment, the second death, the lake of fire.
And the punishment for the crime of apostasy was physical death in the OT and is the lake of fire in the New. Judas committed apostasy and so Satan entered him at the Last Supper, as it is written. He not only suffered physical death but lost his soul in hell.
Now, let's discuss 2 other verses, if you still think you can reconcile the whole Bible with OSAS. Both are from Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
3. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10). Here, the condition to receive the crown is "be thou faithful unto DEATH" not faithfulness for a few moments only, which anyone can do. People want to make it easy for themselves. But the cost of True Discipleship to Jesus Christ is hard. Many modern errors would never have developed under Ongoing Martyrdom.
4. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:26-28).
Again, the Promise is Very Great, "Crown of Life", "Authority/Power over the Nations" etc, but the conditions also are clearly stated, not by a mere disciple, but by the Lord God Himself, Jesus Christ Our Savior. You must, with the help of His Grace, and the Power of His Spirit, overcome the evil that is in the world, and keep His works until the end, and then you will hear: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Again, the Lord doesn't say "you said a 30 second sinner's prayer, and did nothing else" but "thou has been faithful" over those little things God placed in his or her care while on Earth. And so, He repeats the same Promise, He will make that person "ruler over many".
God Bless.
I have shown you several times now, the gospel Jesus Christ preached and sent His apostles to preach from the scriptures.
You on the other hand have shown us nothing from the scriptures at all.
All you have shown us is denial of the truth.
Do you believe no one was saved by Jesus preaching the Gospel?
Again, if it doesn’t have the word repent in it, it’s not the Gospel of Jesus Christ;
Its “another“ gospel.
Here is the Gospel Paul preached, according to the scriptures —
So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20
- but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God,
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31
Please produce scriptures that specifically say what you claim, or otherwise repent for teaching false doctrine.
JLB
Your definition of repent comes from man and not the scriptures.
Here is what Scripture teaches —
- to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins
So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God
Repent means to away from Satan by turning to God, (in submission to Jesus Christ as Lord).
Repent in context of the Gospel = Turn to God.
If we are called to turn to God, then we are called to turn away from Satan as lord.
The way we obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:9-17
Believe = Obey
Unbelief = Disobedience.
Believe and Obey are used interchangeably in scripture.
Example:
- He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV
- He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
JPT
Christ was not confused, but OSAS is confused theology imho. You are trying to build a doctrine on a single verse. It cannot explain Heb 10:29, 39 and many other verses. It cannot explain the Parable of the Sower where some fell away later. Why some branches are cast out.
I gave my explanation above for the verse you are referring to: "His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. Compare Mat 25 where it explains how His Sheep follow Him and why He separates them from the Goats at the Last Judgment. Never does He say, "You were OSAS and they were not, so come to Heaven".
They follow Him, i.e. they do the works He does, like the Scriptures I quoted in my last post show. And so He preserves them, and they never perish. If you want to never perish, you must also follow Him and obey Him, not only believe and trust Him, but do both imho."
The Scriptures in the last post being referred to were: "I read Rev 2:26 along the lines of 1 Jn 3:5: "Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous." The Lord wants us to practice righteousness just like He practiced righteousness: "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing." (Jn 14:12) Righteousness begins by faith in Christ, but is made complete, or perfected, by good works. Hence Abraham's righteousness, which began by faith, was made complete by being willing to sacrifice Isaac his son on the Altar of God, as James teaches us in his epistle: "You see that his faith was working with his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected." (Jam 2:22).
Now, Free Grace, please explain the 2 verses I quoted above, if you think the Whole Bible can be reconciled with OSAS.
3. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10). Here, the condition to receive the crown is "be thou faithful unto DEATH" not faithfulness for a few moments only, which anyone can do. People want to make it easy for themselves. But the cost of True Discipleship to Jesus Christ is hard. Many modern errors would never have developed under Ongoing Martyrdom.
4. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:26-28).
Again, the Promise is Very Great, "Crown of Life", "Authority/Power over the Nations" etc, but the conditions also are clearly stated, not by a mere disciple, but by the Lord God Himself, Jesus Christ Our Savior. You must, with the help of His Grace, and the Power of His Spirit, overcome the evil that is in the world, and keep His works until the end, and then you will hear: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
That last verse is Mat 25:21. God Bless.
I gave my explanation above for the verse you are referring to: "His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. Compare Mat 25 where it explains how His Sheep follow Him and why He separates them from the Goats at the Last Judgment. Never does He say, "You were OSAS and they were not, so come to Heaven".
They follow Him, i.e. they do the works He does, like the Scriptures I quoted in my last post show. And so He preserves them, and they never perish. If you want to never perish, you must also follow Him and obey Him, not only believe and trust Him, but do both imho."
The Scriptures in the last post being referred to were: "I read Rev 2:26 along the lines of 1 Jn 3:5: "Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous." The Lord wants us to practice righteousness just like He practiced righteousness: "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing." (Jn 14:12) Righteousness begins by faith in Christ, but is made complete, or perfected, by good works. Hence Abraham's righteousness, which began by faith, was made complete by being willing to sacrifice Isaac his son on the Altar of God, as James teaches us in his epistle: "You see that his faith was working with his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected." (Jam 2:22).
Now, Free Grace, please explain the 2 verses I quoted above, if you think the Whole Bible can be reconciled with OSAS.
3. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10). Here, the condition to receive the crown is "be thou faithful unto DEATH" not faithfulness for a few moments only, which anyone can do. People want to make it easy for themselves. But the cost of True Discipleship to Jesus Christ is hard. Many modern errors would never have developed under Ongoing Martyrdom.
4. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev 2:26-28).
Again, the Promise is Very Great, "Crown of Life", "Authority/Power over the Nations" etc, but the conditions also are clearly stated, not by a mere disciple, but by the Lord God Himself, Jesus Christ Our Savior. You must, with the help of His Grace, and the Power of His Spirit, overcome the evil that is in the world, and keep His works until the end, and then you will hear: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
That last verse is Mat 25:21. God Bless.
Since Jesus clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28 when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, how can you say that Jesus was not confused. If salvation can be lost, then He was NOT telling the truth.
So, please explain how John 10:28 cannot be about eternal security.
Hardly. There are many, but John 10:28 is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD verse about eternal security.
btw, even just ONE verse that says something clearly and plainly will NOT be refuted by any other verse.
Don't try to pit Scripture against itself. That's not cool. Since John 10:28 is SO CLEAR, why can't you just admit that your "many verses" cannot teach what you think they teach?
John 10:28 isn't about the parable of the soils. Soil #1 is an unbeliever, because it never believed. Soils #2-4 ARE saved because all of them believed. Jesus' point was about producing fruit. There are many things that will prevent saved people from bearing fruit.
I gave my explanation above for the verse you are referring to: "His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him.[/QUOTE]
And I REFUTED your "explanation". v.27 is a simple and straightforward statement about what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There are NO WORDS that create a conditional clause for v.28.
And v.28 is a simple and straightforward statement about the result of being given eternal life: the recipient shall never perish.
It is clear that you do not believe what Jesus said. You believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, in spite of v.28.
The goats and sheep are metaphors for believers and unbelievers. The passage says nothing about losing salvation.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
You are just twisting Scripture to fit YOUR OWN theology. Just believe the verses and quit twisting them.
What do the above verses have to do with eternal security? I don't see any relevance.
The problem is your misunderstanding of works for blessings and reward and salvation by grace through faith.
It's impossible to discuss with you as long as you cannot discern these things.
Kinda like "your mind is made up, and you don't want the facts".
So, please explain how John 10:28 cannot be about eternal security.
Hardly. There are many, but John 10:28 is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD verse about eternal security.
btw, even just ONE verse that says something clearly and plainly will NOT be refuted by any other verse.
Don't try to pit Scripture against itself. That's not cool. Since John 10:28 is SO CLEAR, why can't you just admit that your "many verses" cannot teach what you think they teach?
John 10:28 isn't about the parable of the soils. Soil #1 is an unbeliever, because it never believed. Soils #2-4 ARE saved because all of them believed. Jesus' point was about producing fruit. There are many things that will prevent saved people from bearing fruit.
I gave my explanation above for the verse you are referring to: "His Sheep hear His Voice, He knows them, and they follow Him.[/QUOTE]
And I REFUTED your "explanation". v.27 is a simple and straightforward statement about what His sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There are NO WORDS that create a conditional clause for v.28.
And v.28 is a simple and straightforward statement about the result of being given eternal life: the recipient shall never perish.
It is clear that you do not believe what Jesus said. You believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, in spite of v.28.
The goats and sheep are metaphors for believers and unbelievers. The passage says nothing about losing salvation.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
You are just twisting Scripture to fit YOUR OWN theology. Just believe the verses and quit twisting them.
What do the above verses have to do with eternal security? I don't see any relevance.
The problem is your misunderstanding of works for blessings and reward and salvation by grace through faith.
It's impossible to discuss with you as long as you cannot discern these things.
Kinda like "your mind is made up, and you don't want the facts".
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tut tut
You will read many occasions in the OT where God repented so your definition is faulty ... Imma saying to you that if you are witnessing or preaching and people are listening to you and are showing interest and faith they ARE repenting, if you hold your finger up at that point and say "ah you must first repent" they will not know what on earth you mean or what they are to do.
You want them to fall on their faces and burst out crying and go through an agony of remorse ... well all that is to satisfy you. God does not require it.
You will read many occasions in the OT where God repented so your definition is faulty ... Imma saying to you that if you are witnessing or preaching and people are listening to you and are showing interest and faith they ARE repenting, if you hold your finger up at that point and say "ah you must first repent" they will not know what on earth you mean or what they are to do.
You want them to fall on their faces and burst out crying and go through an agony of remorse ... well all that is to satisfy you. God does not require it.
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Lol. Ok, Free Grace, if you want to agree to disagree, we can. Others can judge which theology is more Biblical and convincing.
For myself, I cannot see how someone can keep reading the whole New Testament and still believe in OSAS. Keep reading anyway, as that's one of the best things you can do, and one day hopefully God will show you OSAS is not the Truth. Also, doctrine is known by the fruits it produces, as the Lord said. What fruits exactly would preaching "you can apostatize and not believe in Jesus or even God, and die without repentance in unbelief, yet somehow still go to Heaven (even though "without faith it is impossible to please God" - Heaven knows what unbelievers and apostates who cannot please God will be doing in Heaven when others are singing God's Praises), provided you once believed for a short while" exactly produce? A generation of lukewarm Christians (which is what we see in many parts of Christendom Today) not those who strive by God's Grace, with faith and love, with prayers and good works, for "faithfulness unto death". Again, believe as you will, and preach as you will, but I don't believe in OSAS, and think many verses disprove it.
Just 5 chapters later in John 15, Jesus clearly explained branches in Him can be cut off and fall away (as Paul also says in Romans) such that, even though made clean once (verse 3), they are later thrown into the fire and burned; more proof He did not mean what FG thinks He meant.
Jn 15:
"5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Neither is the exegesis of the verses in Revelation convincing. FG keeps saying "they just lose some rewards". But there is only a certain amount of additional rewards you can lose before you lose the basic reward of eternal life itself. So it is clear to me that, if you go on sinning beyond a point, you can lose it all. And many sayings of Jesus Christ Himself confirm this. For e.g.
Mat 24:
45“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
So why was this bad servant judged unfavorably and sent to hell? Because he failed to keep the Commandments, in particular that of loving his neighbor as himself, and instead badly mistreated them. He still believed Jesus was "my Master" or his Lord but that was not sufficient to save him. This passage shows we must believe AND obey Christ go to Heaven on Judgment Day. And notice the Good Example of the Faithful Servant. He not only does good, but perseveres in doing so, up until his death, or till Christ returns.
God Bless.
For myself, I cannot see how someone can keep reading the whole New Testament and still believe in OSAS. Keep reading anyway, as that's one of the best things you can do, and one day hopefully God will show you OSAS is not the Truth. Also, doctrine is known by the fruits it produces, as the Lord said. What fruits exactly would preaching "you can apostatize and not believe in Jesus or even God, and die without repentance in unbelief, yet somehow still go to Heaven (even though "without faith it is impossible to please God" - Heaven knows what unbelievers and apostates who cannot please God will be doing in Heaven when others are singing God's Praises), provided you once believed for a short while" exactly produce? A generation of lukewarm Christians (which is what we see in many parts of Christendom Today) not those who strive by God's Grace, with faith and love, with prayers and good works, for "faithfulness unto death". Again, believe as you will, and preach as you will, but I don't believe in OSAS, and think many verses disprove it.
Just 5 chapters later in John 15, Jesus clearly explained branches in Him can be cut off and fall away (as Paul also says in Romans) such that, even though made clean once (verse 3), they are later thrown into the fire and burned; more proof He did not mean what FG thinks He meant.
Jn 15:
"5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Neither is the exegesis of the verses in Revelation convincing. FG keeps saying "they just lose some rewards". But there is only a certain amount of additional rewards you can lose before you lose the basic reward of eternal life itself. So it is clear to me that, if you go on sinning beyond a point, you can lose it all. And many sayings of Jesus Christ Himself confirm this. For e.g.
Mat 24:
45“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
So why was this bad servant judged unfavorably and sent to hell? Because he failed to keep the Commandments, in particular that of loving his neighbor as himself, and instead badly mistreated them. He still believed Jesus was "my Master" or his Lord but that was not sufficient to save him. This passage shows we must believe AND obey Christ go to Heaven on Judgment Day. And notice the Good Example of the Faithful Servant. He not only does good, but perseveres in doing so, up until his death, or till Christ returns.
God Bless.
You will never understand the nature of eternal life until you understand that YOU died in Christ. Everything you were is gone. You are a NEW CREATION made ALIVE with the life of Christ and as He can never die neither can you.
The choice before you now is not whether or not to be saved, that's done, that's forever settled. The choice is whether or not you will walk in this newness of life or whether you go back to your old ways. One is a life of peace and joy with tribulation or else a life sorrow and regret [and if you but knew it even more tribulation]
... but saved you always shall be.
The choice before you now is not whether or not to be saved, that's done, that's forever settled. The choice is whether or not you will walk in this newness of life or whether you go back to your old ways. One is a life of peace and joy with tribulation or else a life sorrow and regret [and if you but knew it even more tribulation]
... but saved you always shall be.
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Mat 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 25:31-35
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Until Judgement closes we can choose to be a sheep or a goat.
By our choice we can be saved or unsaved.
Once saved it will be forever but until the judgement day we can still choose to obey or rebel, every day we can choose to harden or soften our hearts.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 25:31-35
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Until Judgement closes we can choose to be a sheep or a goat.
By our choice we can be saved or unsaved.
Once saved it will be forever but until the judgement day we can still choose to obey or rebel, every day we can choose to harden or soften our hearts.
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Apostacy is indeed possible, but it results from a willful turning away. No one will "lose" salvation, but some will cast it away. Rebellion and rejection is not accidental, and it is not tolerated at any stage in the game. Walk in the light and in love and we shall have no worries. God is faithful to His promises, but many have conditions.
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Hi Evmur.
I agree with "you died in Christ ..." until "made alive with the life of Christ". Where is the verse that supports the bolded? The Bible is clear that, unlike Jesus, we are sinful. Our past sins are washed away. See the reference in 2 Pet 1 below:
2 Pet 1:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
For our future sins, as often as we commit them, we must confess our sins, so that He may cleanse us from them, as He has promised.
1 Jn 1:
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
God Bless.
I agree with "you died in Christ ..." until "made alive with the life of Christ". Where is the verse that supports the bolded? The Bible is clear that, unlike Jesus, we are sinful. Our past sins are washed away. See the reference in 2 Pet 1 below:
2 Pet 1:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
For our future sins, as often as we commit them, we must confess our sins, so that He may cleanse us from them, as He has promised.
1 Jn 1:
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
God Bless.
Ephesians ch.2.
And YOU He made ALIVE when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world following the prince of the power of the air.
I have been crucified with Christ, cries Paul, I live no longer I but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.
What we discover about His life dwelling within us will determine the quality of our life and discipleship. We have the victory in Him over sin and over the devil. Peter exhorts us to go on and manifest this victory.
And YOU He made ALIVE when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world following the prince of the power of the air.
I have been crucified with Christ, cries Paul, I live no longer I but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.
What we discover about His life dwelling within us will determine the quality of our life and discipleship. We have the victory in Him over sin and over the devil. Peter exhorts us to go on and manifest this victory.
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Well, thank you for your permission. 
There is only one reason that you "cannot see how". You simply deny the VERY BEST AND MOST CLEARLY STATED verse on eternal security. That's how you "cannot see". You are blind spiritually to truth. You don't want to know the truth.
You are more comfortable with your own "interpretation" of certain verses that "seem to you" to teach loss of salvation, yet none of the verses you've shared say so plainly.
Unlike John 5:24 with 10:28.
5:24 says believers possess eternal life. That means the MOMENT they become a believer.
10:28 says Jesus gives His sheep (believers) eternal life, with the result that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It couldn't be any more clear than this. Yet, you default to your own faulty understanding of much less clear verses.
The truth is what Jesus SAID in the clearest of words in John 5:24 and 10:28. Which you simply reject.
The Lord didn't say this. Doctrine is known from reading the Word and BELIEVING the Word.
Your difficulty is your hang up with what people DO. As if what people DO negates God's salvation.
That would elevate people's power above God's power. But you never thought of that, did you?
If there is anything I can do that would negate what God did for me, which would be in spite of the FACT that Jesus died for ALL sins, even the ones that OFFEND you the most, then what I DO is more powerful than what God did for me.
So, if you want to believe that malarky, please be my guest.
My view of God's power is so much more than your view. I don't want you view.
There is only one reason that you "cannot see how". You simply deny the VERY BEST AND MOST CLEARLY STATED verse on eternal security. That's how you "cannot see". You are blind spiritually to truth. You don't want to know the truth.
You are more comfortable with your own "interpretation" of certain verses that "seem to you" to teach loss of salvation, yet none of the verses you've shared say so plainly.
Unlike John 5:24 with 10:28.
5:24 says believers possess eternal life. That means the MOMENT they become a believer.
10:28 says Jesus gives His sheep (believers) eternal life, with the result that they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It couldn't be any more clear than this. Yet, you default to your own faulty understanding of much less clear verses.
The truth is what Jesus SAID in the clearest of words in John 5:24 and 10:28. Which you simply reject.
The Lord didn't say this. Doctrine is known from reading the Word and BELIEVING the Word.
Your difficulty is your hang up with what people DO. As if what people DO negates God's salvation.
That would elevate people's power above God's power. But you never thought of that, did you?
If there is anything I can do that would negate what God did for me, which would be in spite of the FACT that Jesus died for ALL sins, even the ones that OFFEND you the most, then what I DO is more powerful than what God did for me.
So, if you want to believe that malarky, please be my guest.
My view of God's power is so much more than your view. I don't want you view.
Evmur said:
You will never understand the nature of eternal life until you understand that YOU died in Christ. Everything you were is gone. You are a NEW CREATION made ALIVE with the life of Christ and as He can never die neither can you.
I've shown you over and over, but you have rejected the verses. John 5:24 and 10:28. "shall never perish" supports Evmur's bolded words.
You will never understand the nature of eternal life until you understand that YOU died in Christ. Everything you were is gone. You are a NEW CREATION made ALIVE with the life of Christ and as He can never die neither can you.
I've shown you over and over, but you have rejected the verses. John 5:24 and 10:28. "shall never perish" supports Evmur's bolded words.
Heh.
I could say the same of you, with much more justice. You simply had no response to the clear verse that those who apostatize "draw back unto perdition". You just said Jesus "must have been very confused", which sounds like something an unbeliever would say.
Either discuss or don't discuss. I'm cool either way. But you can keep your ad hominem and mind-reading and rash judgments to yourself. What you really should do is go through the entire NT. Give 10 points to OSAS for every verse that supports it and 10 points to Conditional Security for every verse that supports it. You might at most find 4-5 verses supporting OSAS. You'll probably find 40-50 supporting CS. I know which I believe. If you want to reject the plain Truth spoken of in so many verses, you do that. We'll both know who was right on the Day of Judgment. A better exegesis is to reconcile the few to the many rather than the other way around.
Mat 24:45-51 is another Clear Verse/Passage that shows that, yes, so-called lifestyle DOES matter. You don't have the Bible. What you have is a modern philosophy. If Jesus died for all sins in the way you believe, then everyone should be saved. But they aren't. The fruit of Christ's Sacrifice is applied to sins you believe in Him for AND repent of. Not other sins. Your idea that even Apostates and Atheists can go to Heaven provided they "once believed" is frankly rejected even by probably 80% of other OSASers, let alone non-OSAS Christians. I think the Truth is clear and I'm content to leave it at that. May the Holy Spirit, in time, lead you to all Truth.
Galatians 6:
"7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."
God Bless, All.
I could say the same of you, with much more justice. You simply had no response to the clear verse that those who apostatize "draw back unto perdition". You just said Jesus "must have been very confused", which sounds like something an unbeliever would say.
Either discuss or don't discuss. I'm cool either way. But you can keep your ad hominem and mind-reading and rash judgments to yourself. What you really should do is go through the entire NT. Give 10 points to OSAS for every verse that supports it and 10 points to Conditional Security for every verse that supports it. You might at most find 4-5 verses supporting OSAS. You'll probably find 40-50 supporting CS. I know which I believe. If you want to reject the plain Truth spoken of in so many verses, you do that. We'll both know who was right on the Day of Judgment. A better exegesis is to reconcile the few to the many rather than the other way around.
Mat 24:45-51 is another Clear Verse/Passage that shows that, yes, so-called lifestyle DOES matter. You don't have the Bible. What you have is a modern philosophy. If Jesus died for all sins in the way you believe, then everyone should be saved. But they aren't. The fruit of Christ's Sacrifice is applied to sins you believe in Him for AND repent of. Not other sins. Your idea that even Apostates and Atheists can go to Heaven provided they "once believed" is frankly rejected even by probably 80% of other OSASers, let alone non-OSAS Christians. I think the Truth is clear and I'm content to leave it at that. May the Holy Spirit, in time, lead you to all Truth.
Galatians 6:
"7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."
God Bless, All.