IF 'THE DEAD' don't rise then who do we rule and reign over?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2022

The point is that Paul received direct revelation from Jesus Christ and Paul visited heaven. Just like John did.

That is you opinion. Paul got revelation that he was NOT to reveal to others.

So what? The point is that every human author of Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It seemed from your previous post that you held John higher than Paul or you were discounting Paul.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 7, 2022

Shilohsfoal said:

That says and means nothing at all. Every author was given what they were to write.

Why are you so negative about Paul?

Shilohsfoal · Jun 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The revelation of Jesus christ has nothing to do with Paul. Paul never said anything about who would reign with christ during the millinium, he never said anything about the mark of the beast nor did he say anything about anyone overcoming the beast.

Paul didn't mention these things be ause it wasn't given to him to say anything about them. Paul was sent to preach the gospel.

John was sent to preach the gospel and to prophecy before many nations. John wrote exactly what he was supposed to write and didn't write what he was told not to.

I can't say the same for Paul.

kleronomos · Jun 7, 2022

Adstar said:

Unless of course, YOU BELIEVE THAT GODS WORDS ARE the most important words you could use. I will admit I am not religious at all. Gods world is my reality. And MOST CERTAINLY it is only for SOME PEOPLE. But you would be shocked at how many people will read it just to annoy themselves so they can respond ABOUT HOW I POST while giving none of Gods Truths.

Adstar said:

For this I have to GO TO THE WORDS OF GOD YET AGAIN as you don't seem to accept? them or believe their truth? or maybe what is written isn't what God meant? IDK but here IS WHAT GOD SAID.

WHAT WAS JESUS SAYING? Just to be sure YOU ARE TEACHING DIVIDED/DIVISION/TWO CAMPS, CORRECT?

Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mark 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Do you also divide 'the saints' from the whole House of Israel?

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

but somehow people are managing to DIVIDE THEM BACK UP. WONDER IF IT IS FOR SOME DOCTRINE THAT REQUIRES A DIVISION THAT CHRIST BROKE DOWN? hummmm

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

HOW COULD ALL OF THIS BE LIES? HOW CAN IT BE WRITTEN BECOME FELLOWCITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS AND YOU SAY THEY ARE NOT? I JUST DON'T GET IT.

BUT continue on trying to make it about my writing style as that is the only truth you are putting forth. ALL THE REST you THINK but none of it is written.

Adstar said:

We obviously aren't reading the same book. And why would I use MY WORDS when HE says it so pure and simple it is HARD to get it to say something else. I am NOT going to worry about what it LOOKS like, I believe people will see for themselves where the lies are and where the truth is.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

GOT TO BE HERE TO DO THAT DON'T YOU?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I just don't know what I would add to these words of God. You just don't have any words of God to attach those thoughts to. That would upset me also. So go on, make it about me, I don't mind. All I care about are GODS WORDS and the Spirit of Truth.

kleronomos · Jun 7, 2022

Shilohsfoal said:

OK

kleronomos · Jun 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The death of the FLESH means NOTHING in the Spiritual world that is coming to the earth when Christ returns and those flesh dead and spiritually dead

are RISEN to 'alive' in the spiritual realm (though they remain SPIRITUALLY DEAD as to BELIEF because they never came to faith).
Just like all the dead walking around on the earth today. If you are not in the Lord Jesus Christ you are dead. Doesn't matter if your flesh is breathing or decomposing, you are dead, in both places.

YOU CAN KEEP SAYING IT BUT it will never be truth. THE DEAD WERE resurrected when the graves opened. Ever since that day those who believe while they live and here is what you DON'T seem to believe,

NEVER DIE.

Since they are never dead, THEY can not resurrect nor can they rise up, since they are NOT DEAD, nor are they amongst the dead. They have gone on to heaven to be where He is and are returning with Him.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT JUST IN REALITY, but even in language.

NEVER DIE WOULD at the least read something like

'And THE LIVING in Christ rose up' from, where are they rising up from, HELL? BUT if we remember that is where Christ descended and set those in prison free from right? Isn't that what it said in the scroll Christ was reading in the temple? Isn't that what HE SAID WAS FULFILLED?

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

So we know that there was a GROUP resurrection of the SAVED. We also must remember If the dead DON'T RISE then Christ isn't risen

and

first fruits of them that slept.

WHERE IS CHRIST? RIGHT NOW. He is in heaven at the right hand of God, correct?

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

FreeGrace2 said:

The first fruits of WHO? THEM THAT SLEPT. who WAS 'SLEEPING' AT THAT TIME? Those who had died under the law and the NATIONS.

If Christ became the first fruits of them that slept, then them that slept would have to be with HIM or He would just be FIRSTFRUITS.

but not firstfruits of them that slept.

How it would end these conversations if you would just tell us who you believe are 'them that slept' or who's graves opened and who was resurrected from them, or who When Christ ascended he lead. Sure would help for everyone to know what you really believe since they are in direct opposition to what you post.

kleronomos · Jun 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Are all the Scriptures that say this body goes back to dust simply lying? Is the scripture that says 'a bare seed' not in the slightest bit accurate?

kleronomos · Jun 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Are you saying that both the letters to the Corinthians only applied to the BELIEVERS of that very generation? Are you saying all the letters in the NEW TESTAMENT only were for the ONE GENERATION?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

Shilohsfoal said:

Why would or should he? He wrote what the Holy Spirit led him to write. He was THE most prolific theological writer in the Bible. His job was to establish churches, not prepare them for a future tribulation. And he certainly wrote about the trials and tribulations of life in the 1st Century.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Approx half of the world's population will be killed during the Tribulation. Rev 6:8 and and 9:15.

All believers will be resurrected in a single resurrection "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, to end the Tribulation and set up His Millennial kingdom. So Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron". Those who survived the Tribulation. And all resurrected believers will serve/reign with Him.

kleronomos said:

A rather odd statement. I was explaining who would be around to be ruled during the Millennium.

Not following any of this sentence.

OK, so this seems to say that you believe that all people will be resurrected at the same time?? Even though Rev 20:4,5 refute that?

Your statements are very hard to follow. You are not making clear sense here. I DO believe that those who believe "will never die" as Jesus told Martha (see? I DO know the Bible. John 11:25-27). But it seems you don't understand what Jesus was telling Martha.

He was speaking spiritually, not physically. Jesus KNEW, unlike you, what Heb 9:27 says: for it is appointed ONCE for man to die, and then the judgment. Everyone will die at least once. Except the few living believers when Jesus comes back.

Yep, you are just very confused.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT JUST IN REALITY, but even in language.

Not going to wade through the rest of your post, since you are confused about the various meanings of "death".

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, since the Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection for all unsaved, they will get their old carcass back, only to have it physically DIE AGAIN. That is what the "second death" refers to. Physical bodies will be consumed in the lake of fire. Not the souls.

kleronomos said:

Wow. It seems your confusion is even worse than I thought. Your previous post to me was making the point that believers will never die, and now you are admitting that our bodies go back to dust??? Are you a flip-flopper or what?

No, those Scriptures are not lying. Are you suggesting that since dead bodies return to dust that God CAN'T resurrect them back into their former condition?? Of course He can.

How about quoting at least the verse that says this, so I can see the context and follow you. This little snippet isn't enough to even understand what you are talking about.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
And Paul's epistle was addressed to Gentile believers in Corinth.

kleronomos said:

It seems you really love to jump to very false conclusions! The NT is for EVERY believer of EVERY generation. I was pointing out that Paul's epistle was to Gentiles, not exclusively Jews. Of course there were Jewish believers in many of the Gentile churches.

NO NO NO NO NO.

Shilohsfoal · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Exactly. Paul was not to prophecy of a future tribulation which he did do.
Pauls letters is much like these forums. People write as they are led to write. No one was instructed to just as Paul was not instructed to.
Paul also gives his opinions of other prophets prophecies just as people on these forums do. He was not Instructed to do so just as we were not instructed to do so.

You might tell me something you are led to believe and that would be your opinion. Paul has done the same thing in his letters concerning the prophecies of other prophets. It doesn't mean his opinions are the word of God just as your opinion or my opinions are not the word of God.

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Absolutely the opposite. I believe that Christ couldn't rise if the dead don't rise because it is the kind of law. It doesn't say if Christ isn't risen then Christ isn't risen but if the dead aren't then Christ isn't.

No mention of a 'future' for all souls. Those living and coming to belief never die. ONLY ONE way that never die REMAINS TRUTH and that is if you never die. IF YOU DO DIE, AND YOU STAY DEAD AND YOU AWAIT WITH THE DEAD AND YOU RISE WITH THE DEAD

THEN NEVER DIE IS A LIE.

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Let me see if I follow you, I am INCORRECT because the PHYSICAL DEATH and resurrection of Lazarus I believe is the subject being spoken of WHILE the physical death and resurrection of Lazarus is taking place

BUT you are correct because EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE PHYSICAL DEATH AND RESURRECTION situation

that isn't what Jesus is REALLY referring to? Is that correct? Is that what you are saying?

Wouldn't that be like saying baptism isn't really a spiritual change but ITS A PHYSICAL ONE? AND WE REALLY GET A NEW BODY?

You see these are the things I run into EVERYWHERE. What is so easy to see as the subject is twisted in some way to where what is written ISN'T ever what is meant.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, so this seems to say that you believe that all people will be resurrected at the same time?? Even though Rev 20:4,5 refute that?

kleronomos said:

Sorry to say this doesn't make sense. Please explain this:
Christ couldn't rise IF the dead don't rise. This basically says that Christ rises ONLY because the dead rise. As if they rise first. Which is totally wrong.

Why are you stuck on Paul's theoretical? The point IS that Christ HAS risen, so let's move on to reality, not theoreticals.

Rev 20:5 refutes this. Why are you ignoring it?

Please define what you mean by "die" here? The Bible speaks of 7 different deaths.

Huh? Where do you get your material?

I explained this. Do you reject that Jesus was telling Martha about never dying eternally? It seems you have no clue.

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

MY BAD for assuming you understood the difference between DEATH OF THE FLESH BODY and Death of the soul.

YOU GIVE ME ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT FLESH RISING. THE ONLY THING THAT RISES IS THE SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT.

THE DUST GOES BACK TO DUST. Maybe you should try to follow what I am saying instead of being so bent on being right cause you are not. YOU HAVE DEAD FLESH RISING FROM THE EARTH WHEN THERE ISN'T A SINGLE SCRIPTURE TO BACK IT UP.

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

THE DEAD RISE and so CHRIST rises. NOT

THE DEAD WILL SOMEDAY BE RISING so Christ rises now.

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The point is THE GRAVES WERE OPENED and those who slept resurrected 2000 years ago and have been ever since. THE RESURRECTION is not past it is present, AT least for those who are saved.

ONLY THE DEAD go to be dead and stay dead until all the dead are dead and then the dead will rise. NOT THE LIVING. That doesn't happen to those who never die

kleronomos · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Not sure what word or concept YOU can't seem to grasp but here is it simple as I can think to make it.

Hopefully you will be able to get this this time, so we wont have to do it ever again.

If you can't UNDERSTAND or you can't AGREE, then we should never be in discussion again, we are just reading two different books.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

THE DEAD consists of two different groups. One group have never been born again. Have never had a 'spiritual' birth. They are not saved. They are the UNSAVED. When their physical body dies, ALL OF THEM DESCENDS AND REMAINS THAT WAY until Christ returns to resurrect them. (unless raised at the GWTJ)

The NEVER DIE except for their EARTHEN FLESH BODY. BUT the PASSING ON OF THAT FLESH IS CALLED DEAD. But the never dies soul/spirit has been born again, born from above, and will NOT DESCEND but will ASCEND in a spiritual body and the only part of them that goes into the earth is their now spiritless soulless CARCASS WHICH ALREADY HAS 'QUICKENED' THE BARE SEED, so they will never come back for ANYTHING OUT OF THE EARTH EVER AGAIN.

There will be no RETURN for any part of that flesh that is going back to dust. ALL flesh goes back to dust. NO FLESH RISES EVER. NO ONES. God is not going to resurrect dead flesh. Not for the SPIRITUAL KINGDOM. NOT for anyone.

Still refer to them as the dead when their flesh dies BUT upon the death of their flesh, their SPIRITUAL BODY resurrects and goes to be with the Lord in heaven. They have been born again. THEY WERE BORN FROM ABOVE. That is where they LIVE and will continue on living. They are SAVED. They NEVER DIE only their earthen vessel dies.

HOPEFULLY this isn't confusing you, though I suspect it will somehow. But I will continue on anyhow

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die

When THE EARTH FLESH body dies,

THE BARE GRAIN is the ONLY part of the flesh body that is quickened or has ANYTHING to do with the spiritual one. That bare grain could be no more than A SINGLE CELL. One single cell out of BILLIONS OF CELLS is all that the SPIRITUAL BODY uses from the sinful flesh one

So when the flesh body dies, that single cell is ALL THAT GOD USES TOWARDS our spiritual body.

a single grain from this flesh is 'quickened' ONE TINY SEED. Out of billions and billions of cells JUST ONE IS USED TO PRODUCE THE SPIRITUAL BODY.

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

What did we learn? This body doesn't ever rise. This body is what is sown but only a bare grain is used towards the spiritual body.

The body we sow is not the body that is raised, not the body that will be, not the body that resurrects, not the body the unsaved will be resurrected in.

The only thing the body provides is a single cell.

So the question is:

how do you go from SOWEST NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE

TO

SOWEST THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE?

EITHER

IT IS THE BODY THAT SHALL BE

OR

IT ISN'T THE BODY THAT SHALL BE.

HOPEFULLY this is not confusing for you. I am trying to be very simple so that you can follow.

WHAT BODY IS RAISED UP? The spiritual body that GOD CREATES USING a single cell from this one.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

A BODY THAT GOD GIVES TO THAT ONE TINY SEED FROM THIS FLESH BODY. THAT ONE SINGLE CELL. THAT IS THE most of this flesh that goes on.

DOES THIS SAY anything other that A SINGLE CELL from this body rises? NO WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT ANY WHERE. BUT WE KNOW THAT WHAT IS SOWN PRODUCES A SEED THAT WILL LIVE ON IN A NEW BODY THAT GOD GIVES IT.

IF 'THE DEAD' don't rise then who do we rule and reign over?

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