You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

Runningman · May 10, 2022

As far as apologies go, I don’t genuinely feel sorry to you for anything. It’s better to not apologize than to issue a fake apology which is tantamount to lying. My conscience is clear and I’m happy with the results of being given a public platform to debunk your false doctrines.

While it’s a good image for Christianity when false doctrines like the ones you hold get debunked, it’s not so good the way you talk to me. Your tone is impolite and disrespectful and shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit. It’s provocative and if anyone needs to apologize it’s definitely you, but I am not petty and don’t require your apology.

Anyway, you don’t need to continue responding to me as that isn’t necessary to continue arguing. What’s only necessary is for you to keep studying the Bible and growing. We all have a lot to learn, but you’re deeply in error.

I do believe you sincerely believe your false religion, but I am not sure you actually believe in God. I guess that’s between you and God anyway and hopefully for your sake your sincerity, though tremendously flawed, will be your saving grace.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
My only "tactic" is to respond to what your posts communicate. If I misrepresented anything in your post, that's on your own skills.

I am sorry to see how LOW you have gone in blatant lying. Where have I "slandered" you? Quote the statement(s) and post #'s please.

Or apologize. Your pick.

Now you're a comedian. Please show me where I've been "called out" you know, again and again and again. I DARE you to.

Please read my posts before going off half cocked. I didn't ask for "deference", for pete's sake. I gave you a choice. You have falsely claimed that I slandered you, and asked that you PROVE your claim or apologize.

Oh stop it already. There is no "luck" here. I'm defending Scripture and your BAD theology.

There you go again with your false charges. What's with you anyway?? Now you have another FALSE claim to prove.

Runningman said:

I wasn't trying to teach you this time. I was CHALLENGING your LIES. I challenged YOU to prove what you claim. And this is how you respond?? Just ignore my challenge and go irrelevant. I wasn't showing Scripture. I was challenging your lying claims. Plain and simple. But you don't because you can't. So you have to post something irrelevant.

Just a pitiful excuse.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2022

Runningman said:

Are you aware of what I challenged you to do? It seems you are totally unaware.

I pointed out what you claimed I am guilty of. Then I challenged you to prove your claims. Are you really not aware of the discussion?

I asked you to prove your claims about what you said about me. But you won't because you can't.

I'm not arguing. I've been pointing out your lies, which you are totally unable to prove.

You're the one who is trying to build a doctrine from an obscure verse that is about proxy baptism. You have the problem.

I'm not interested in your opinions. They are irrelevant here. What you have been challened to do is back up your claims about me that I am calling LIES. Can you do it? No, you can't, as this post perfectly shows.

Lafftur · May 10, 2022

Hello again @KelbyofGod

KelbyofGod said:

The Bible does use various words..... saved, believe, faith, redeemed, salvation, redemption, eternal life, sealed with the Holy Spirit, baptized with the Holy Spirit, water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, baptized in water for the remission of sins, so many variations....

I'm discovering all the words are like "puzzle pieces" which means they all fit together and make the big picture.

ALL those words are God's Will for each Believer in Christ... it's a process that can be really quick or in various stages.

So far, I have found them to fit like thus....

The Father chooses a person for His Son;

Then, the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears to understand that the Gospel message of Jesus Christ is 100% absolute Truth - no doubt - the person absolutely knows it's true;

Then, the person has to make a decision..... Life or Death - Receive Jesus or Reject Jesus;

If they choose Life and Receive Jesus Christ's Blood and Body, they are SAVED;

At this point, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit;

Also at this point, if God chooses, they can be immediately baptized with the Holy Spirit too and even speak in tongues;

It is also very important that the person now be water baptized as a public sign that they believe, are saved and in blood covenant with God;

Lastly, they will need to get a Bible and read it and depend on the Holy Spirit to teach them because man twists the scriptures and causes confusion and all kinds of denominations and doctrines that do not give life.

The person will need to learn how to be "continually filled" with the Holy Spirit by singing psalms, fellowship with other true believers, Bible studies, prayer, fasting, meditating on God's Word. Kind of like how a cellphone has to be plugged in to get recharged back to 100% power.

If the person neglects, quenches or grieves the Holy Spirit, their Flesh will take over and lead them back into sin. But, God is faithful and will deliver them if they call on Him.

Eventually, the person learns God's Ways and His Will..... line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.... growing and maturing in Christ.

It's a wonderful journey... just stay with Jesus Christ no matter what! All our "security and dependency" on people, things, pets, jobs, house, etc... gets taken away and we learn that Jesus Christ is our source - Him ALONE.

Then, God puts people, pets, houses, jobs, etc. back into our life and we simply enjoy them but, our focus forever remains on CHRIST!

In summary, the way I understand is:

Being 'saved' requires the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ; and
being 'born again' requires the water baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.

Runningman · May 10, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You get some sort of power rush out of falsely accusing me of being a liar? That’s what the devil does, too, falsely accuses the brethren like how you are.

I have proven myself every post along the way. I am not going back to reiterating my points just because you’re assigning challenges to me that I never accepted. If you want information about things I’ve said you can comb through my comments and read them. I stand behind all of my comments and can defend every one of them using scripture and sound reasoning.

Runningman · May 10, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

My post wasn’t about Jesus’s baptism but rather the baptism into Jesus which is a water baptism according to the Great Commission and Acts 19.

I expect alleged adults to have good reading comprehension before responding. If he misunderstood what I wrote, yet again, as appears to often be the case as he follows me around the forums contradicting everything I and the Bible says, then I can’t account for that.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2022

Runningman said:

Then prove me wrong. That's all you need to do. And prove all those false claims you have made about me. But, if any of them were true, you would have quickly quoted the post and cited the post #. But, of course, you know very well your claims are false.

Sad, sad, sad.

Well, your most recent claims are just fluff. Unless you quote me directly and give the post #, so everyone can see your proof.

Move the goal posts. I never asked you to "reiterate your points". I challenged you to prove your claims against me.

post #232 - I don’t owe you any deference. You’re lucky I’m even replying to you again. You know you are a dishonest debator. I don’t need to prove that to you because your conscience bears witness of this fact to you.
post 240 - No scripture just a bunch of hot air and bluster from you which seems to be your typical impotent response. Didn’t even even read the whole thing, but skimmed through it. You’re lost and confused and seem to want to blame me for it.
post #241 - While it’s a good image for Christianity when false doctrines like the ones you hold get debunked, it’s not so good the wayou talk to me. Your tone is impolite and disrespectful and shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit. It’s provocative

OK, now prove each of these claims. That I'm a dishonest debater. That my posts are just a bunch of hot air and bluster which is typical of my impotent responses. And that my "tone" (that's a good one since tone is totally ABSENT in a written post) is impolite and disrespectful.

Are you up to it? Here are 3. Go ahead and prove your claims.

Well, here's your opportunity. I've given you a sample of your posts, with post #s to help you locate them and see that I haven't made up anything. They are available to anyone to look up.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2022

Runningman said:

Then prove me wrong. That's all you need to do. And prove all those false claims you have made about me. But, if any of them were true, you would have quickly quoted the post and cited the post #. But, of course, you know very well your claims are false.

Sad, sad, sad.

Well, your most recent claims are just fluff. Unless you quote me directly and give the post #, so everyone can see your proof.

Move the goal posts. I never asked you to "reiterate your points". I challenged you to prove your claims against me.

post #232 - I don’t owe you any deference. You’re lucky I’m even replying to you again. You know you are a dishonest debator. I don’t need to prove that to you because your conscience bears witness of this fact to you.
post #240 - No scripture just a bunch of hot air and bluster from you which seems to be your typical impotent response. Didn’t even even read the whole thing, but skimmed through it. You’re lost and confused and seem to want to blame me for it.

post #241 - While it’s a good image for Christianity when false doctrines like the ones you hold get debunked, it’s not so good the way you talk to me. Your tone is impolite and disrespectful and shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit. It’s provocative

Well, here is your chance to prove them. You can look up each quote with the post # to ensure that they came from YOUR posts.

Anyone can claim that they "stand behind all their comments". No big deal. Now prove them.

KelbyofGod · May 10, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

There are a few points I'd like to make concerning your interpretation of those two verses (more specifically the highlighted portions)

Those questions are not exclusive to the church of the Galatians. They are just as valid if asked of the Ephesians in Acts 19:1-7, the Samaritans in Acts 8:12-17, or the Romans in Acts 10, or those who receive the same Holy Ghost (or work the same miracles) today. (those verses are not demonstrating any distinction between believers in Acts, Galatians, or today)
By stating that "Galatians isn't about the "very early church", like we read in Acts." you are acknowledging that not only were miracles a part of the "very early church", they remain an acknowledged and expected part of life in the new covenant.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
I use Gal 3:2,5 as guiding my views of the very early church as exceptions to current reality.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

First, there is no mention of water baptism.
Correct.
Second, by the time Paul wrote to the Galatian believers, it was at about 16-22 years after the resurrection of Christ. So Galatians isn't about the "very early church", like we read in Acts.

KelbyofGod said:

No argument there.

No, Im not. What is your point here? My comments are about WHEN the Holy Spirit is given.

KelbyofGod · May 11, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

When Paul says to the Galatians "does God... work miracles among you by [Condition A] or by [Condition B]?", Paul is acknowledging that "miracles among you" is a reality in the Galatian church.

When you say "Galatians isn't about the "very early church"." You are acknowledging that those same "miracles among you" are a reality in a church that is by your definition NOT the "very early church"

So... you are actually saying that "miracles among you" continues beyond the "very early church" . (Which is something I agree with, BTW)

FreeGrace2 said:

Your comments might be about WHEN, but Paul's comments to the Galatians are about WHY or HOW or "by what means"...not WHEN.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

Check.

Not check. I have no idea what your point is here. My point, again, was that when Paul wrote Galatians, it was way after the beginning of the church. That's all.

I doubt that miracles have continued beyond the "early church". God gave them to establish the church by demonstrating God's power, just as Jesus performed miracles to establish His power.

That isn't needed today, as we have 2,000 years and a very established church.

Wansvic · May 11, 2022

p_rehbein said:

KellyofGod said

Technically there is at least one recorded group that was baptized twice. The group of 12 in Acts 19. They were baptized under what seems to be a partial version of John's baptism, then again in the name of Jesus once Paul shared the missing pieces of understanding.

Acts, Chapter 19 is where we are shown HOW believers become SANCTIFIED. Filled with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

This clearly shows that Sanctification does NOT occur with water baptism. It occurs with the laying on of hands and praying over by other sanctified believers. In this instance: the Apostle Paul.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

The record confirms both water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus (necessary after Jesus' sacrifice) and receiving the Holy Ghost are essential to salvation.

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2022

Wansvic said:

That would be some "extra-biblical record", of course.

Because the Bible doesn't show water baptism as a requirement for salvation. No where. The verses you think say so don't say so.

And you guys seem to be unable to discern between water and the Holy Spirit regarding baptism. No wonder the confusion.

Wansvic · May 19, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

yeah the only thing that has changed from this

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is the name of Jesus is now revealed. See when John baptized Jesus it was because he was about to preach the gospel of the kingdom as scriotire foretold all along he was going to preach and speak the new covenant after johns ministry. When hohn came first Jesus hadn’t yet been declared johns ministry was about Jesus but his name wasn’t known. The act of baptizing in water is the same John actually preached of Jesus but his name wasn’t yet known until he was baptized and started preaching the gospel even Jesus disciples , baptized disciples in Jesus name after John sent his disciples to Jesus

“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus wasn’t a Baptist , but his disciples like John before baptized in Jesus name John just hadn’t known his name when he began because that’s how it was written.

The only change is in jesus name has now been made known that was the issue there in your wuote they got baptized but didn’t hear John preaching about Jesus and it had been before Jesus was baptized.

“Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; and looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:35-

those who hears John preaching heard what Paul had explained to them

“And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they hadn’t heard Jesus preaching about the spirit of kingdom they just got baptized by John they hadn’t heard about the Holy Ghost

“he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you haven’t heard something you can’t believe it was the issue they got baptized but hadn’t heard the gospel yet about receiving the Holy Ghost from Jesus thats what John was rakkkng about

“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

John was takkkng about this day

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33, 36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You still get baptized in water for remission and you still get the Holy Spirit from Jesus can even Work the other way receive the spirit first and then get baptized in water. Like this

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-45, 47-48‬ ‭

the water never goes away it’s always a witness of the same thing remission of our sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We receive the Holy Ghost that’s what the reference bekng baptized with the Holy Ghost is Jesus is the only one who can give the Holy Ghost when we hear the gospel and believe

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also noteworthy is there is no mention of Jesus' name being used in association with "John's" baptism. And an important point is recorded in Luke 24:47. Jesus prophesied that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name throughout the nations beginning in Jerusalem. This prophecy was fulfilled after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. It was in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost that Peter presented the first gospel message that included the following command, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin..."

Pilgrimshope · May 20, 2022

Wansvic said:

amen if we look close John was actually baptizing based on faith in the messiah he just hadn’t made his name known yet
What I mean is John was actually preaching faith in Jesus beforehand it sounds different because it’s before Jesus began preaching the gospel or made himself known to be the messiah

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. and preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4, 7-8‬ ‭

John was already foretelling pentocost

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was already preaching Jesus and baptizing for remission of sins
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:6-8‬ ‭

like the apostles John is a witness of Jesus

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:29-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John was preaching even then “ put your faith in the messiah who is about to make himself Known “

Baptism is the same the only difference is Jesus name is now made known when we get baptized. They also were getting baptized based on the same faith before his name was disclosed and it was made manifest who he really is

DavidTree · May 20, 2022

Live4Him2 said:

Hey, Kelby.

A few things...

First of all, I agree with you that God's desire is that we all are water baptized and Spirit baptized.

In fact, this is part of "the principles of the doctrine of Christ":

Hebrews chapter 6

[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

"The doctrine of baptisms"...PLURAL.

I believe that we see God's desire for all to partake of both baptisms at least as far back as the exodus from Egypt.

In relation to the same, we read:

I Corinthians chapter 10

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Again, there are two baptisms here...one in the cloud, which I believe is a type of Holy Ghost baptism, and one in the sea, which is representative of water baptism.

This said, I wouldn't be so hasty to assume (as you've apparently done) that speaking in tongues is the mandatory outward sign of such a Holy Ghost baptism. Granted, there are examples of the same in the book of Acts, BUT we also need to strongly consider the following:

I Corinthians chapter 12

[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Here, we clearly see 9 different manifestations of the Spirit, and "diverse kinds of tongues" is only one of them.

Personally, I don't speak in tongues (I believe that this gift is still available, but I also heavily believe that much of what professes to be genuine tongues today is demonic in nature), but I have been used in "the word of knowledge", in the "discerning of spirits", and even in "the gifts of healing by the same Spirit" in the past.

In relation to tongues, Paul also asked and said this:

I Corinthians chapter 12

[30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

The correct answer to Paul's question "Do all speak with tongues?" is "no".

In fact, Paul not only went on to say that we should "covet earnestly the best gifts", but he named at least one "gift" which is better than the gift of speaking in tongues when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 14

[1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Anyhow, it's rather clear that not everyone spoke in tongues in Paul's day, so you shouldn't be seeking to impose the same requirement upon others in our day and age.

Again, as Paul plainly said in relation to the 9 different manifestations or gifts of the Spirit:

"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (I Corinthians 12:11)

The Holy Spirit gives different gifts to different people AS HE WILLS to do so.

Yes, we can covet earnestly the best gifts, but, again, the gift of speaking in tongues is NOT mandatory, nor is it even the best gift.

I once heard a preacher say that he was asked what is the true manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and I love what his answer was.

He said that the true manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Ghost is TROUBLE.

In other words, where as professing Christians regularly waste hours upon hours arguing over the gift of tongues, they've apparently missed the real PURPOSE of the baptism of the Holy Ghost which is as follows:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. " (Acts 1:8)

How about we all stop worrying about the manifestation of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and we all start focusing on the PURPOSE of the same instead?

Namely this:

BEING WITNESSES FOR JESUS, EVEN UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.

Can I get at least one "Amen"?

I won't be surprised if I don't.

Anyhow, TROUBLE definitely follows those who are true witnesses for Christ.

For some, it may just be rejection or harmless persecution.

For others, it may be imprisonment or even martyrdom.

It's much easier to argue on an online forum than it is to witness for Christ in public, but that is what we've actually been called to do.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Your post is almost perfect and i greatly enjoyed reading it - Thank You

Now just add the Beautiful God Glorifying scripture verses of the Holy Spirit Gift of speaking in tongues and you have a perfect post.

You left this out: "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.

Tongues is the least Gift but notice how the LORD placed His Signature of Holy Spirit Authority on Tongues by directly and irrefutably connecting it to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do all speak in tongues = NOPE ................ Is Prophecy the better Gift = YEP

Like the Apostle Paul (and Peter and John and the others) "I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;"

ALSO = to be PERFECT/COMPLETE in HIM follow this instruction:

"I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:4-9

FreeGrace2 · May 20, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

We need to get a grip on what 1 Peter 3:21 means.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

4 translations, with NIV and BSB the same. However, the Greek word is:

antitupos: struck back, corresponding to
Original Word: ἀντίτυπος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: antitupos
Phonetic Spelling: (an-teet'-oo-pon)
Definition: struck back, corresponding to
Usage: typical of, representing by type (or pattern), corresponding to, an image.
HELPS Word-studies
499 antítypon (from 473/antí, "corresponding to" and 5179/typos, "type") – properly, an antitype which corresponds to (fulfills) a type (a predictive symbol). See 5179 /typos ("a theological type") for extended discussion.

So, the Greek word means "corresponding to", or "typical of, or represneint by type/pattern" or "corresponding to an image".

And properly, it means "an antitype corresponding to an image".

So, let's break this all down to its simplicity.

A person stands in front of a mirror. In the mirror is an image of the person. What/who is the "type"? The actual person. Then what is the "antitype"? The image in the mirror. iow, NOT the actual person.

If the mirror breaks, the image disappears while the real person remains unharmed.

So, back to the verse, "this water", "that water" and "this" all refer back to v.20 and the literal water that Noah + 7 were saved THROUGH, not "by" as some horrible translations say. iow, they were saved FROM the liteal water by being IN the ark. Totally dry.

So, it is literal water that corresponds to "the baptism that does now save us". iow, it ISN'T wet water that saves. Water baptism ONLY corrresponds to the "baptism that does save us", which is a direct reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

iow, baptism of the Holy Spirit is the TYPE, and water baptism is the antitype.

Water baptism CORRESPONDS TO the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the "baptism that does now save us".

Got it?

The Greek is very clear. Everyone who keeps insisting that water baptism is necessary for salvation is VIOLATING this verse, which is God's Holy Word.

Quit already.

DavidTree · May 20, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

CORRECT

The issue is not should we be water baptized, but that it can never wash away sins.
If it could, Christ would of never went to the Cross.

Therefore anyone who attaches water baptism as a requirement for forgiveness of sins is teaching heresy and is insulting the Spirit of Grace.

NEVER place anything as equal to the BLOOD of Christ for forgiveness of sin.

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Many people will not be able to enter into His Rest because they added to the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

It is the LORD who sanctifies us by His Blood - never outward rituals.

DavidTree · May 20, 2022

montana123 said:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus said we must be born of water and the Spirit.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Bible says baptism of water does now save us.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

We are buried with Jesus into death which is water baptism for if we have been planted together with Him we shall also rise in the likeness of His resurrection.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection, which we do by repenting of our sins, being baptized in water, and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter preached repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles and Samaritans were baptized in the name Jesus and the people that were baptized by John had to be baptized in the name Jesus.

Some people say Peter preached that to the Jews but was not preached to Gentiles and Samaritans but the salvation plan of God is the same for all people.

aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Water baptism is for remission of sins which remission is to forgive.

The Bible says there is no other name given under heaven whereby we are saved but the name Jesus.

All we do in word and deed is to be done in the name Jesus.

So why would we use Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in baptism and they are not names but titles, and it is name singular which the name is Jesus.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Water baptism is not to be part of a Church but it is part of the salvation plan of God for it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and we must identify with the man Christ Jesus.

The Bible says if we are buried with Him in His likeness we shall rise to newness of life.

It is not the death, and resurrection of Christ, but it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Good stuff except for one very important TRUTH.

Jesus never said water baptism brings for the New Birth.

Not once does the LORD Jesus Christ apply water baptism to the New Birth in John 1:1-21

Please read again carefully to SEE exactly what the LORD said in John 1:1-21

PEACE

You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

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