Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[FreeGrace2]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for getting into the spiritual body of Christ and it’s for salvation of the soul. That’s perfectly clear.

Apparently not to you. This is what being "baptized INTO Christ". This is UNION with Christ. As Eph 1:13 says.

What I am trying to show you is they water baptism is required for the first resurrection and water baptism gets people into the resurrection of Christ.

you've already been shown that 1 Cor 15:29 is an obscure verse that has NO CONTEXT for the Christian church. You are trying to build a doctrine based on a verse no one understands and there is NO history of.

Further, the verse is about PROXY baptism. Are you really comfortable with a PROXY baptism to "get into the resurrection of Christ"?

1 Cor 15:23 refutes you. It says clearly that "when He comes", being the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. It says nothing about "also being water baptized".

Romans 6:4,5 is water baptism. There isn’t an apparent reason to see it as something else since baptism was a common practice in the church.

Let's see.
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

No, this is NOT water baptism. This is the REAL baptism (identification) that water baptism SYMBOLIZES. 1 Pet 3:21 says so.

If you told someone “you’ve been baptized into Christ” with a baptism they can’t even see or experience then that’s more difficult to understand.

It's not difficult at all. If people were taught properly from the beginning. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is taught in Eph 1:13. That is how a person is placed into Christ, or what is called "union with Christ".

And Rom 6:4,5 is about being in union with Christ. Being baptized INTO Christ is what the Holy Spirit does.

Water baptism is what a human being does to another human being to SYMBOLIZE the believer's union with Christ.

If you don't understand this, your bias is just too strong to allow truth to enter in.


The language Paul used suggests “immersion in literal water” and that’s how the Romans would have understood his letter when they saw Romans 6.[/QUOTE]

 

[Runningman]

Apparently not to you. This is what being "baptized INTO Christ". This is UNION with Christ. As Eph 1:13 says.


you've already been shown that 1 Cor 15:29 is an obscure verse that has NO CONTEXT for the Christian church. You are trying to build a doctrine based on a verse no one understands and there is NO history of.

Further, the verse is about PROXY baptism. Are you really comfortable with a PROXY baptism to "get into the resurrection of Christ"?

1 Cor 15:23 refutes you. It says clearly that "when He comes", being the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. It says nothing about "also being water baptized".


Let's see.
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

No, this is NOT water baptism. This is the REAL baptism (identification) that water baptism SYMBOLIZES. 1 Pet 3:21 says so.


It's not difficult at all. If people were taught properly from the beginning. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is taught in Eph 1:13. That is how a person is placed into Christ, or what is called "union with Christ".

And Rom 6:4,5 is about being in union with Christ. Being baptized INTO Christ is what the Holy Spirit does.

Water baptism is what a human being does to another human being to SYMBOLIZE the believer's union with Christ.

If you don't understand this, your bias is just too strong to allow truth to enter in.


The language Paul used suggests “immersion in literal water” and that’s how the Romans would have understood his letter when they saw Romans 6.

Romans 6 is talking about things they could have literally experienced therefore it's certainly water baptism.

Romans 6:3-7
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We do not literally die during water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism or that would be either or first physical death or spiritual death. Actually, water baptism is just an image of the death and resurrection of Christ. Jesus went down into the water then came up out of the water. Water baptism is the only way for people to experience the likeness of His death.

However, a literal resurrection is coming, nothing symbolic about that. So water baptism is required for a literal resurrection. Now that you've been informed about that, passages like Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-5, 1 Peter 3, and 1 Corinthians 15 can be more accurately understood.

 

[Runningman]

If that's the case, then does the Spirit baptize you in water?

Water Baptism "in his name" is not the same as Baptism into him.

Holy Spirit baptism comes when God is ready for it to come. It can come through faith, through water baptism, through laying on of hands, or otherwise.

As you'll see below, it's possible to believe and not receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

Also note, when Paul sees they didn't receive the Holy Spirit He immediately asks questions regarding their water baptism because it's totally relevant. They had only had John's repentance water baptism and needed to be water baptized into the name of Jesus before they could get the Holy Spirit.

 

[SomeDisciple]

We do not literally die during water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism

It's our flesh that dies to sin. This is in the same epistle.

 

[Runningman]

It's our flesh that dies to sin. This is in the same epistle.

Romans 7:13-25 shows Paul's flesh is alive and well post-conversion. That means you seem to be misunderstanding Romans 6.

 

[peldom10]

You were given the opportunity to be free but you show here where your heart is.
Therefore, i am free of any wrong here before the LORD.

If you continue in your heresy you will be greatly ashamed before the LORD.
You have been warned.

You have been given the opportunity to show support for your non biblical position on baptism and have not responded...why?

 

[peldom10]

It's our flesh that dies to sin. This is in the same epistle.

Not true...it is a spiritual death of the soul.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Also note, when Paul sees they didn't receive the Holy Spirit He immediately asks questions regarding their water baptism because it's totally relevant. They had only had John's repentance water baptism and needed to be water baptized into the name of Jesus before they could get the Holy Spirit.

They needed to be baptized because it's commanded; it wasn't a prerequisite for the Holy Ghost.

Romans 7:13-25 shows Paul's flesh is alive and well post-conversion. That means you seem to be misunderstanding Romans 6.

Pardon the previous phrasing- We ourselves, are dead to sin, walking in the spirit. Our flesh is dead/mortified because we don't walk in it (the flesh). It doesn't have control- it has no power- it's dead.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Not true...it is a spiritual death of the soul.

We are talking about "death" in baptism. Does your soul die when you are baptized?

 

[SomeDisciple]

Lets expand our context here.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This is what I meant- our flesh is crucified with him that the body might be destroyed. Obviously our bodies are not literally crucified, or literally destroyed-but it is "dead" in that the lusts of the flesh do not manifest in your conduct. Were supposed to be living as though we are already raised from the dead- you can't do that without the Holy Spirit. Water baptism doesn't do that. The Holy Spirit does that.

 

[Runningman]

They needed to be baptized because it's commanded; it wasn't a prerequisite for the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 19, they were like "oh you haven't received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" and they hadn't even heard of the Holy Ghost. Immediately he starts asking about their water baptism.

What is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost if believing isn't enough? Why did Paul only lay his hands on them after they were water baptized, imparting the Holy Ghost to them?

Pardon the previous phrasing- We ourselves, are dead to sin, walking in the spirit. Our flesh is dead/mortified because we don't walk in it (the flesh). It doesn't have control- it has no power- it's dead.

People keep sinning, but the main point is Romans 6:14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

 

[SomeDisciple]

In Acts 19, they were like "oh you haven't received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" and they hadn't even heard of the Holy Ghost. Immediately he starts asking about their water baptism.

Right, In Acts 19 those are disciples of John the Baptist, and they are all the way out in Ephesus; they don't actually know the Gospel until Paul tells them what has transpired.

What is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost if believing isn't enough?

You can see that they received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10, Peter hadn't even finished preaching yet.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 6 is talking about things they could have literally experienced therefore it's certainly water baptism.

Didn't you even read what I wrote?? It is water baptism that SYMBOLIZES our UNION with Christ. iow, the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is DRY) places INTO UNION with Christ.

Haven't you read Eph 1:13? You need to.

What about proxy baptism? You still good with that stuff?

If that's ok with you, don't just stop there. You could have proxy BELIEVING, you know, for those who have already died but didn't believe.

Just like the nonsense of a proxy baptism for those who weren't baptized.

 

[Runningman]

Didn't you even read what I wrote?? It is water baptism that SYMBOLIZES our UNION with Christ. iow, the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is DRY) places INTO UNION with Christ.

Haven't you read Eph 1:13? You need to.

What about proxy baptism? You still good with that stuff?

If that's ok with you, don't just stop there. You could have proxy BELIEVING, you know, for those who have already died but didn't believe.

Just like the nonsense of a proxy baptism for those who weren't baptized.

Yes I actually read what you wrote. You’re wrong and I’m showing you what the truth is. Did you read what I wrote??

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes I actually read what you wrote. You’re wrong and I’m showing you what the truth is. Did you read what I wrote??

I read everything you post to me, and sometimes what you post to others.

Why didn't you respond to my question about your comfort level with PROXY anything, whether it be baptism or belief itself?

Since 1 Cor 15:29 is clearly about being baptized for someone who has already died, that makes it a PROXY baptism.

Where ELSE does the Bible endorse that bit of stuff? It doesn't.

Just as PROXY belief doesn't work, neither does PROXY baptism. You need to let go of your ideas. The verse is a reference to a bogus practice anyway.

 

[Wansvic]

Thank you for your reply.

The emphasis of the Galatians scripture is this:
We who are Believers in Christ only arrived at this Holy Place of REST by the Holy Spirit.

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3

This applies to the law and to anything of the outward flesh, relying on religion including modern day religious activities,
that would replace Faith in the Finished Work of Christ, complete reliance on the Scripture and the ongoing Work of the Holy Spirit.

From the flesh came the birth of the Roman Catholic church and all of her children.

Obedience to water baptism for the remission of sin is part of the NT conversion experience. Note Peter commanded it of everyone along with repentance. He also makes reference to the need to receive the Holy Ghost. Belief in Jesus and obedience to the requirements associated bring about one's spiritual rebirth. No one will gain entrance into heaven without first having their sins remitted and receiving the Holy Ghost as well. Jesus makes this point throughout scripture

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[DavidTree]

I assure you I am calm as can be. You're the problem child here. Let me remind you that you've accused me of being possessed by an unclean spirit, said I am in danger, issued more than one warning to be, rebuked me, called me an non-believer all because I debated your interpretation of scriptura? That's so bad. What else? I've patiently endured and tolerated your attacks because you aren't a threat to me.

The Word of God refutes you and will have the final word here.

Romans 6:4,5
4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

If you are united with Jesus "like this" in His death... Like this is the act of water baptism. Going down into the water is symbolic of Christ's death because He was buried down in the Earth, in that way we are united with Christ "Like this" in His death. This is for a literal resurrection.

#1. "likeness" means symbolic and not literal -
#2 you continue to lie about what i said
#3 grow up

Obedience to water baptism for the remission of sin is part of the NT conversion experience. Note Peter commanded it of everyone along with repentance. He also makes reference to the need to receive the Holy Ghost. Belief in Jesus and obedience to the requirements associated bring about one's spiritual rebirth. No one will gain entrance into heaven without first having their sins remitted and receiving the Holy Ghost as well. Jesus makes this point throughout scripture

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Obedience is KEY to all that our LORD Jesus Christ commands us.

Keep this at the Center of your heart and the Forefront of your mind = CHRIST suffered and shed His Blood for forgiveness of sins.

NEVER pour fleshly water on the Precious Blood of CHRIST.

 

[Wansvic]

So is waring sandals

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.

The command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is required for remission of one's personal sin in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Receiving one's spiritual rebirth far exceeds the importance of whether one wears sandals or not. Gaining entrance into heaven requires being born again, sandals optional.

 

[Wansvic]

I think people who live afraid and first believe Salvation is conditional and absolute submission is requisite to retain their deliverance aren't actually living in peace.

They're instead living in fear and are constantly hoping to glean a clue as to how to best commit to what they imagine as God's will.

How can they though? When they're first preoccupied with their belief that salvation is impermanent? And conditioned on their intuiting God's intentions for them. Living by the rules.

And oddly, that belief system will also be adament that God's law is done away with.

God is absolutely sovereign. And Omniscient.

Not one of us comes to faith in Christ unless God draws us.

I am certain my father who told me he knew me before the womb, and wrote my name in his book of life, knows not only the number of hairs on my head but also everything there is about me. From conception to my last breath.

And God called me into his grace and irrevocably gifted me faith and salvation anyway.

I live his peace because I know I'm to respect my father ("fear" God).

Not live terrified I'll slip up being all that he created me to be, so that he proves himself a liar and revokes what he promised is irrevocable.

I am a new creation in Christ. Reborn into the light, my sins forgiven and never to be held against me sgain. I am not dead in sin. I am eternally alive in Christ in whom there is no sin.

Should I stumble, my Lord is my rescue and I am not condemned ever ever again.

So, while I know there are proponents of conditional reprieve from their damnable state, I shall not be persuaded to believe them when they insist their doctrine is righteous.

God's word is sure. And fear is not living in peace.

No fear involved. Just pointing out what scripture specifically states regarding when one's personal sin is remitted in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Praise God!

 

[BeeThePeace]

No fear involved. Just pointing out what scripture specifically states regarding when one's personal sin is remitted in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Praise God!

Our sins are forgiven the moment we believe. And are never again held against us.