Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[SomeDisciple]

Possibly. But- I doubt Jesus and Nicodemus were speaking to each other in Koine. Is "from above" and "again" also the same word in the Hebrew? I wonder.

 

[BillG]

I know it sounds crazy, but if Jesus Christ was NOT born again by water and Spirit, then how was He going to fulfill being the First Born of many brethren?

@Lafftur

You say the above.

In order for a believer to enter the kingdom of God they must believe in Jesus death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. So we must be born again for the forgiveness of sins?

Do we agree on that?

So if we agree on that then Jesus would not need to be born again because he was without sin?

How can Jesus be born again by water and spirit again if he was and is the beginning?

Surely he fulfilled being the first born before he was born physically.
When Adam and Eve sinned?

 

[BeeThePeace]

I'm so sorry @BillG the last thing I'd ever want to do is cause you any confusion.

I'm just at the beginning of realizing that being SAVED and being BORN AGAIN are two different things.

SAVED = Only BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith receive God's Grace as a Gift - the Blood of Jesus Christ takes our sins away and the Body of Jesus Christ imputes the Righteousness of God into us - simply a GIFT - ALL His Works, NOT ours.

BORN AGAIN = Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism - by water and Spirit.

SAVED and BORN AGAIN are two different things.

No one needs to believe anything I'm saying.... I'm not trying to upset the apple cart.... I just finally realize the difference between SAVED and BORN AGAIN.

Being saved is being born again. John 3

 

[BillG]

Remember the thief on the cross that believed in Jesus Christ.... he was in Paradise with Jesus. Believing in Jesus Christ SAVES us, even without the water baptism or Holy Spirit Baptism, we are SAVED and will be with Jesus Christ in Paradise.

However, why stop at being SAVED? Let's go on and get Born Again too, with the water baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism!!!

Remember the household of Cornelius, they all got saved by believing in Jesus Christ as Peter was preaching - they didn't give a confession of faith. They were not water baptized, they just suddenly got the Holy Spirit baptism and started speaking in tongues. Then, Peter had them all water baptized.

Then, there's those disciples/believers that Paul asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and they only knew of John's water baptism.... Paul lays hands on them and they get filled with the Holy Spirit - and speak in tongues.

Saved AND Born Again can all happen at one encounter or it can happen at different times but, I understand the difference now between them.

If a person is saved before baptism do they have the Holy Spirit in them?

I know you speak in tongues but does one have to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues?

Can one speak in tongues without being baptized in water?

 

[Beckie]

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Beckie]

If a person is saved before baptism do they have the Holy Spirit in them?

I know you speak in tongues but does one have to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues?

Can one speak in tongues without being baptized in water?

Yes

 

[Beckie]

Teaching, telling others, that Jesus , who is God Himself, needed to be born again is a different gospel .

 

[BillG]

Yes

Thanks.

I was told that because I don't speak I tongues I am not saved

 

[BeeThePeace]

Thanks.

I was told that because I don't speak I tongues I am not saved

That's not true.
Believe and hold to God. False teachers shall answer for every word.

 

[Magenta]

Who Jesus is...

 

[Beckie]

Thanks.

I was told that because I don't speak I tongues I am not saved

You know as well as i do we should check the Scriptures against anything we are told. So many of us Christians add a touch of this a dab of that to what the Scriptures actually say. Often we are well meaning but meaning well should not be an excuse.

 

[Wansvic]

No, faith OUGHT to involve action. That was James' point.

Listen closely to James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

I will point out that I moved the second quote mark from after the first "deeds" to after the second "deeds". I did this because the verse makes NO SENSE where all the translations place that second quote mark.

The "someone" actually says the whole verse: you have faith; I have deeds. Show me (the someone) your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith BY MY DEEDS.

iow, the "someone" begins by noting he has deeds. But the next sentence shows that he says that he can "show you" his faith BY HIS DEEDS.

This "someone" is addressing another who "has faith". So the "someone" is challenging the other person to show him his faith without any deeds.

The point is; a believer cannot show their faith apart from their deeds.

And that was the example James gave in v.15,16.
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

iow, it isn't any good. Words don't meet needs. Actions do.


No, read the text:

14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

There is NOTHING about "the NEED to be baptized". She simply WAS baptized. You are misreading the text.


First, these 12 hadn't received the Holy Spirit, and didn't even know the Spirit existed. All they were aware of what John's baptism of repentance. So Paul had them baptized in the name of the Lord. But there is NOTHING in the text about baptism being required for salvation. They were Gentiles, and like the Gentiles in Acts 8, they didn't receive the Spirit by water baptism. They received the Spirit by the laying on of hands.


Why do you always insert the word "the need to be" where there is NO such wording. When the jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul's answer was the gospel: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's it.

The fact that they WERE baptized doesn't prove that it "is required".


Let's take a peek into what Paul preached, shall we?

1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,
8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Paul begins by reminding the Corinthians what he had preached to them in v.1. In v.2 he tells them they ARE SAVED because they possessed the gospel that he preached.

Then, in v.3 Paul lists what he considered of "first importance". And he ends this segment by saying "this is what we preach, and this is what you believed".

So Paul was acknowledging that they were saved (v.2) because they believed (v.11).

Now, please point out where Paul included water baptism that he preached to the Corinthians.


1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,
2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way” —
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ ”
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Huh? This is about John's baptism, not "Christian baptism". It has no relevance to Christian baptism.

This is Paul's view of John's baptism in Acts 19-
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Pretty clear. John's baptism had nothing to do with salvation. It was about repentance that led to a change in behavior. That does NOT save. And note that even the water baptism Paul administered didn't result in the 11 receiving the Spirit. It was AFTER the baptism that Paul "laid his hands on them" and THEN they received the Spirit.

So none of the verses you quote help you out.

Salvation requires that one's sins be remitted. The message that sins are remitted in obedience to the command to be water baptized was begun by John at the counsel of God. (Mark 1:1-5, Luke 3:3, etc.) Water baptism was later modified to include the need to use the name of the Lord Jesus in association with His death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:38, 22:16) Jesus prophesied this would occur in Luke 24:47.

Believing the message given by Jesus through Peter that water baptism is for remission of sin brings about the reality. Jesus said those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe are damned already. (Mark 16:15-16) Jesus statement makes the point that people are required to believe the gospel message that includes remission of sin through baptism. Failing to do so results in ones sins not being remitted.

The examples show the need to be baptized was part of the message. If it was optional there would be at least 2 conversion records that excluded the command to be water baptized. None exist. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

Who Jesus is...

And Jesus became the author of salvation unto all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9)

 

[Beckie]

mans actions are not higher then the Cross. Yet i believe Christians should be baptized

 

[Lafftur]

@Lafftur
I know it sounds crazy, but if Jesus Christ was NOT born again by water and Spirit, then how was He going to fulfill being the First Born of many brethren?

You say the above.

In order for a believer to enter the kingdom of God they must believe in Jesus death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. So we must be born again for the forgiveness of sins?

Do we agree on that?

Well, not exactly....

This is what I agree on:

In order for a Believer to be SAVED and NOT perish, they must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ by faith receiving His Blood that takes their sin away and receive His Body that imputes the Righteousness of God into us.....Now, we are SAVED. There are NO WORKS that we can do to be SAVED except, BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.

So if we agree on that then Jesus would not need to be born again because he was without sin?

How can Jesus be born again by water and spirit again if he was and is the beginning?

Surely he fulfilled being the first born before he was born physically.
When Adam and Eve sinned?[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]I know, this concept of Jesus Christ being Born Again by water and Spirit at the Jordan River is really messing with our theology. I totally understand. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]This thread got me really pondering over "water baptism" and I know it is NOT required to be SAVED yet, Jesus did tell us to be water baptized AND receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - the Promise of the Father; and Jesus told Nicodemus that unless a person is Born Again of water and Spirit they cannot even see the Kingdom of God.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]So, there is something very special and needed for every Believer to receive Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism...which falls under being BORN AGAIN by water and Spirit. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]However, being SAVED falls under believing in Jesus Christ and receiving His Blood and Body.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]If all of this is getting too confusing, just take a step back, turn the computer off, put on some praise and worship music, find peace and quiet your soul and then ask the Holy Spirit to teach you Truth, NOT what Lafftur has posted but, you only want to know what God says about Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Much love and respect to you BillG! :love:(y)[/COLOR][/SIZE]


[SIZE=5][COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)][/COLOR][/SIZE]

 

[Lafftur]

If a person is saved before baptism do they have the Holy Spirit in them?

Yes, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus Christ. However, we can also immediately receive the Holy Spirit Baptism too.... some get it immediately and some do not but, it is God's Will for all that believe in Jesus Christ to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, just as it is God's Will for all that believe in Jesus Christ to be water baptized.

I know you speak in tongues but does one have to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues?

No, one does not need to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit baptism. Cornelius' household is a perfect example in Acts 10.

Can one speak in tongues without being baptized in water?

Yes, you can speak in tongues without being water baptized. However, Peter still water baptized the household of Cornelius even after they were already speaking in tongues. So, complete the BORN AGAIN process and get water baptized.

 

[Wansvic]

When did I ever say Jesus Christ was not the Son of God?

As a human baby, Jesus Christ was the physical Son of God; and
at the point of water baptism and Holy Spirit descending on Him, He became Born Again of water and Spirit - the First Born spiritual Son of God of many brethren.

I'm realizing more and more the importance of both water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism in the "born again" process that occurs in every believer AFTER they are SAVED.

Water Baptism is NOT required to be SAVED, however, it is part of the process to be BORN AGAIN of water and Spirit.

The following hinges upon believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Being born of water and Spirit brings about one's spiritual rebirth. Consider that Jesus said unless a man is reborn he cannot SEE the kingdom. After making that statement, He said unless a man is born of water AND Spirit he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:3 and 3:5 point out different things. Afterward, according to Paul, born again believers are to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

 

[Lafftur]

Being saved is being born again. John 3

Well, I know that I cannot be born again if I am NOT saved. However, I do believe that I CAN be SAVED yet, not Born Again.

I also believe, being SAVED and Born Again can all happen at once, and/or water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism can flip flop - no particular order. However, being SAVED always comes FIRST.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus Christ. However, we can also immediately receive the Holy Spirit Baptism too.... some get it immediately and some do not but, it is God's Will for all that believe in Jesus Christ to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, just as it is God's Will for all that believe in Jesus Christ to be water baptized.



No, one does not need to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit baptism. Cornelius' household is a perfect example in Acts 10.



Yes, you can speak in tongues without being water baptized. However, Peter still water baptized the household of Cornelius even after they were already speaking in tongues. So, complete the BORN AGAIN process and get water baptized.

Consider also how Ephesians 1:13 parallels Acts 2:38: "In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

 

[Beckie]

@Lafftur

You say the above.

In order for a believer to enter the kingdom of God they must believe in Jesus death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. So we must be born again for the forgiveness of sins?

Do we agree on that?

So if we agree on that then Jesus would not need to be born again because he was without sin?

How can Jesus be born again by water and spirit again if he was and is the beginning?

Surely he fulfilled being the first born before he was born physically.
When Adam and Eve sinned?

Some folks just will not accept the full deity of Jesus the Christ. He was bon fully God He did not need to grow into being who He is.