Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[JeffA]

Being Baptized in water = Ritual
Taking Holy Communion = Ritual
Reciting the Lord's Prayer = Ritual

There is no salvation in Ritual. Only Danger (as one can get caught up and led astray).

 

[JeffA]

I hear Pastors saying "YOU MUST GET BAPTIZED IN WATER!"

I say "OR WHAT?"

 

[peldom10]

There is only ONE BIRTH. That is from the water of a woman.
There is only ONE RE-BIRTH. That is in the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (birth) and of the Spirit (Re-Birth), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

See? No Birth NOR Re-Birth in water-baptism.

Being "Born" (or Re-Born) NEVER equates to water-baptism.

You can't add...birth...ok.

Allow me to correct you...from the womb of a woman...not water.

Don't know bible you are using but, I suggest the 1611 KJV Bible.

 

[peldom10]

QUOTE="JeffA, post: 4831257, member: 315007"]I hear Pastors saying "YOU MUST GET BAPTIZED IN WATER!"

I say "OR WHAT?"[/QUOTE]

Or you are not sin cleansed.
You are not...born again .
you are not eligible to be judged righteous for eternal salvation....upon God's judgement after this physical death.
That is easy.

 

[peldom10]

Being Baptized in water = Ritual
Taking Holy Communion = Ritual
Reciting the Lord's Prayer = Ritual

There is no salvation in Ritual. Only Danger (as one can get caught up and led astray).

No ritual in baptism...show me supporting scripture.
Baptism is the debate here.

 

[Runningman]

True you are correct on all points here concerning it's relationships with salvation however i just find it very difficult to find it required for the resurrection when it is clealry symbolic and is nothing more than a testament of one giving their lives to Christ, I never saw any resurrection done with water of by anyone who was baptized aside from Jesus.
Again I mention the dead in Christ in the first resurrection it says the dead in Christ not the dead who were baptized in water but the dead in Christ and if water does not save then it does not make one in Christ therefore those raised in Christ were not done so because they were baptized in water but because they were born again in spirit not water. unless of course you have another explanation for the dead in Christ being raised? I mean you have to pay attention to the words being used here to understand the context and what is being spoken about even one word makes a huge difference in what is being said

I mean, the coming resurrection is real and literal so it's difficult to understand what a symbolic resurrection would even be. To be resurrected would require a death of some kind first. What died and what is being symbolically resurrected?

 

[JeffA]

@peldom10

So you are saying that you cannot get to heaven without water baptism.
It's ok, I'm sure, if you believe that.
I just wanted to understand your position more clearly.

My defense of my position?

John 3:16

Pick any Bible version you wish!

 

[JeffA]

No ritual in baptism...show me supporting scripture.
Baptism is the debate here.

The baptism of the Holy spirit is the only baptism that is NOT ritual.
From what you say I would need to be water-ritual-baptized every time I sinned.
Or does water-ritual-baptism clean Future sins?
Honestly, I would love to never sin again but, being man, it is improbable.

Reading with comprehension always helps me to understand the meaning in the scriptures.
If you get a good English translation, with red letters (I prefer), The whole Bible is fairly easy reading.
I personally prefer the ESV for reading and then refer to the KJV, NASB or even the Geneva.
For deep or difficult matters, I go to the Hebrew or Greek (or Aramaic for some Daniel).
I also go to honest, knowledgeable people that I trust for their point of view.

 

[Blain]

I mean, the coming resurrection is real and literal so it's difficult to understand what a symbolic resurrection would even be. To be resurrected would require a death of some kind first. What died and what is being symbolically resurrected?

Nothing is being symbolically resurrected but because water baptism is symbolic only it cannot resurrect litterally compared to a literal baptism of the holy spirit which actually had the power to resurrect the dead. I mean water is water but God is spirit if there was ever a baptism that would be required to be in the resurrection wouldn't be the one that is of God's very nature instead of mere water? does God ever do anything but according to his nature? is water baptism or the baptism of the holy spirit according to his nature?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Beautiful! It is so good to see this text as a solid review. Thank you. Yesterday, I mentioned corrupt water . . . and here we are considering silver and gold . . . which has been what? That's right . . . refined by fire. Yet even that which has been refined by literal fire is not good enough.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I mean, the coming resurrection is real and literal so it's difficult to understand what a symbolic resurrection would even be. To be resurrected would require a death of some kind first. What died and what is being symbolically resurrected?

The first symbolic ressurrection appears in Gen 3.

Genesis 3:22 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"

There is only One that grants Eternal Life, and it is Christ. Nothing can redeem us from the Curse that Adam and Eve brought into this world through disobedience . . . except Christ. This is the Purpose of Christ, this is the Work of Christ, and this is the Effect of Christ. To say that something other that Christ creates Purity is to detract from Christ. I would be very careful in taking away from Jesus what is rightfully His . . . credit for His Work.

 

[Runningman]

Nothing is being symbolically resurrected but because water baptism is symbolic only it cannot resurrect litterally compared to a literal baptism of the holy spirit which actually had the power to resurrect the dead. I mean water is water but God is spirit if there was ever a baptism that would be required to be in the resurrection wouldn't be the one that is of God's very nature instead of mere water? does God ever do anything but according to his nature? is water baptism or the baptism of the holy spirit according to his nature?

Water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are ordained by God.

Yes scripture agrees that water baptism is a symbol or a figure of death and resurrection, but it isn't just getting wet. It's the answer of a good conscience toward God according to Peter and part of fulfilling all righteousnes according to Christ (Matthew 3:15).


Water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism is about getting an actual resurrection.
1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Runningman]

The first symbolic ressurrection appears in Gen 3.

Genesis 3:22 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"

There is only One that grants Eternal Life, and it is Christ. Nothing can redeem us from the Curse that Adam and Eve brought into this world through disobedience . . . except Christ. This is the Purpose of Christ, this is the Work of Christ, and this is the Effect of Christ. To say that something other that Christ creates Purity is to detract from Christ. I would be very careful in taking away from Jesus what is rightfully His . . . credit for His Work.

That Genesis 3:22 verse has nothing to do with symbolic resurrection.

Can't help but wonder if you meant to direct this post at someone else because it certainly doesn't seem to apply to me. Not sure what you're talking about with saying I am taking away from Christ's work. I certainly didn't say anything like that. I said salvation of the soul comes through faith in Christ and resurrection is because of water baptism. What exactly is the issue?

 

[Blain]

Water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are ordained by God.

Yes scripture agrees that water baptism is a symbol or a figure of death and resurrection, but it isn't just getting wet. It's the answer of a good conscience toward God according to Peter and part of fulfilling all righteousnes according to Christ (Matthew 3:15).


Water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism is about getting an actual resurrection.
1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

They may be ordained by God but for different purposes that was my point, the verse you post here does not equate resurrection spoken of in revelation in fact it only speaks of the resurrection of Jesus

 

[Runningman]

They may be ordained by God but for different purposes that was my point, the verse you post here does not equate resurrection spoken of in revelation in fact it only speaks of the resurrection of Jesus

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Blain]

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And tell me what was it that the apostles and the rest of the church recieved upon being saved? if you noticed not only did they recieve the holy spirit but many did so beofre even being baptized many did so the second they proclaimed Jesus as their savior, whether salvation or resurrection only the holy spirit has power not water in no instance does water alone have the power to do any of these things.
Yes Jesus recieved the holy spirit after being baptized and many also became baptized but they did so out of devotion not because they thought it would save them or because they thought by any means it would give them a place in the resurrection. Again God is spirit he does things according to the spirit he saves by the spirit he resurrects by the spirit water is physical it feeds the physical and it saves only the physical

How one can you use the scriptures yet not understand these simple things? I am sure if you stop and think about what i am saying you will see where i am coming from, we are talking about the things of God here not of man therefore you have to think like a spiritual man not a mortal one you have to consider the heavenly things and how they work, if water was the key to anything it would be to sustain the body it does nothing more than that because it is an earthly thing salvation and the resurrection are heavenly and therefore can only be done by the heavenly it is just that simple if nothing else just understand that

 

[peldom10]

@peldom10

So you are saying that you cannot get to heaven without water baptism.
It's ok, I'm sure, if you believe that.
I just wanted to understand your position more clearly.

My defense of my position? John 3:16 Pick any Bible version you wish!

That's God's word....not mine. Why don't you address the Bible...not me. I am saying nothing. The scriptures are your challenge...not me.

John 3;16 won't work for you....because when does repentance come in to play....then?

Hello!!!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

That Genesis 3:22 verse has nothing to do with symbolic resurrection.

Can't help but wonder if you meant to direct this post at someone else because it certainly doesn't seem to apply to me. Not sure what you're talking about with saying I am taking away from Christ's work. I certainly didn't say anything like that. I said salvation of the soul comes through faith in Christ and resurrection is because of water baptism. What exactly is the issue?

You have no issue with me. I know when to walk away. I wish you the best.

 

[peldom10]

oQUOTE="JeffA, post: 4831277, member: 315007"]The baptism of the Holy spirit is the only baptism that is NOT ritual.
From what you say I would need to be water-ritual-baptized every time I sinned.
Or does water-ritual-baptism clean Future sins?
Honestly, I would love to never sin again but, being man, it is improbable.

Reading with comprehension always helps me to understand the meaning in the scriptures.
If you get a good English translation, with red letters (I prefer), The whole Bible is fairly easy reading.
I personally prefer the ESV for reading and then refer to the KJV, NASB or even the Geneva.
For deep or difficult matters, I go to the Hebrew or Greek (or Aramaic for some Daniel).
I also go to honest, knowledgeable people that I trust for their point of view.[/QUOTE]


Leave the Holy Spirit out of whether baptism is required or not. That is another point.

There is no difficulty here...the 1611 edition of the KJV Bible is perfectly clear and specific. No other reference is in play here....because they provide no support for your position either.........perhaps a slanted edition of which I will not waste time to ponder.

 

[DavidTree]

The first symbolic ressurrection appears in Gen 3.

Genesis 3:22 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"

There is only One that grants Eternal Life, and it is Christ. Nothing can redeem us from the Curse that Adam and Eve brought into this world through disobedience . . . except Christ. This is the Purpose of Christ, this is the Work of Christ, and this is the Effect of Christ. To say that something other that Christ creates Purity is to detract from Christ. I would be very careful in taking away from Jesus what is rightfully His . . . credit for His Work.

AMEN