Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Beckie]

OK, you are free to make your own choices about what you believe, but I gave you facts that prove otherwise.

Apparently you don't understand WHY Adam ate the fruit. It was the woman who was tricked (deceived) by Satan to eat it. And it was the woman who offered it to Adam. He ate it because he chose the woman over God and His plan. Plain and simple.


I see. So you are just trying real hard to negate the clarity of v.45. Go ahead. God gave you the freedom to choose what you will believe.

do you even read what you post?

I haven't charged you with trying to negate anything.


This is a typical response when one is identified as a calvinist. Doesn't matter that you didn't study calvin. Many many pastors have been trained in reformed theology, which is calvinistic. Certainly you sit under a pastor. He may very well be a calvinist.


I wasn't using the word as a slam. Wow are you hypersensitive about your calvinism.

This is what calvinists believe:
1. man is unable to believe the gospel and therefore requires that God regenerate him/her so they can and will believe.
2. God chose/elected certain individuals for salvation apart from any condition (that would include faith as a condition).
3. Christ did not die for everyone, but only for these certain elected individuals.
4. God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chooses for salvation WILL believe.
5. a. all believers WILL persevere in the faith.
b. all believers will be eternally secure.

Seems some calvinists believe 5a and others 5b.

It all adds up to TULIP.


My posts include Scripture. If people don't like it, I don't care. Scripture is Scripture.


From what you have posted, I had no idea what you know or didn't know.

Please check your sensitivities at the door.

If i was a Clavinist i would gladly say so . Thank you for posting those 5 Scriptural points ! Posting the most words does not make one correct. How can anyone believe what you say when you contradict your self so clearly ?

 

[Beckie]

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

Blue words describe what some from the "all" do: listen and learn from the Father.

Green words is the result of listening and learning from the Father; coming to Jesus.

Sure reads like what folks label Calvinism your learning

 

[awelight]

I am not trying to negate anything just posted the Scriptures ...
Once again i have never studied any of Calvin's writings . I have studied Scofield and his bible . Read much of the dispensational teachings . Had i studied Calvin's work i would most likely say thank you when someone tried to use the word Calvinist as a slam. About 30 years ago i was kicked out of "chats' for posting Scripture your posts are no different.

I full well know it was Eve who ate first and she got Adam to eat the fruit. I mistakenly thought a grown man would understand the word man to mean mankind, i even used the word mankind a couple times .. sheesh

Keep firmly rooted in THE Truth and let no man fool you. (Or is it boy or maybe human being or perhaps mankind or... well its not men) LOL

Your in good company with Calvin. Like you, the Spirit impressed upon me the Truth of Salvation, when I first started studying the Book of John. I had never even heard of John Calvin nor had I ever heard a preacher on the subject.

But John Calvin is joined by the likes of: Augustine, Martin Luther, John Gill, Albert Barnes, Johnathan Edwards, A. W. Pink, Charles Spurgeon, John McArthur and W. E. Best. All used heavily by the Lord to proclaim His Truth. May we be used in the same way.

Glory to the Lord of Salvation.

 

[awelight]

All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. Knowing the difference will clear up most false doctrines.

Since Hebrews, is primarily about Jesus Christ who is the better Sacrifice and is the High Priest after the order of Melchisedech - who was both King and Priest. Perhaps you would explain how this does not apply to us today? Is He (Christ), not both King and High Priest, forever? Is it not Christ's blood, that makes it possible for one to be both Righteous and Justified? Is not His Sacrifice Eternally accepted? Being He was both Son of God (Infinite) and Son of Man.

So how does Hebrews not apply?

 

[Beckie]

Keep firmly rooted in THE Truth and let no man fool you. (Or is it boy or maybe human being or perhaps mankind or... well its not men) LOL

Your in good company with Calvin. Like you, the Spirit impressed upon me the Truth of Salvation, when I first started studying the Book of John. I had never even heard of John Calvin nor had I ever heard a preacher on the subject.

But John Calvin is joined by the likes of: Augustine, Martin Luther, John Gill, Albert Barnes, Johnathan Edwards, A. W. Pink, Charles Spurgeon, John McArthur and W. E. Best. All used heavily by the Lord to proclaim His Truth. May we be used in the same way.

Glory to the Lord of Salvation.

When i was first labeled a calvinist i thought maybe calvinist had something to do with Calvary. Because both words start with CAL . That was about 30 years ago ,,, thanks for the encouragement, awelight,

 

[awelight]

FreeGrace2 said:
What you still don't understand, apparently, is that Christ's obedience still doesn't save anyone. His obedience unto death made our salvation possible, but doesn't save.

There is ONE GLARING error of calvinism.

1 Cor 1:21 tells us plainly WHY God saves people.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

you don't have to like this verse and what it teaches, or believe what it teaches. But it is God's Word nonetheless.

God is pleased to save those who believe.

The calvinist twist is "God is pleased to save those He chose". Yet, no verse says that.


OK, now read all of Romans 4 to see WHY Abraham is called the "father of all who believe". Salvation is based, NOT ON ELECTION, as you presume, but on faith in Christ.


Right. God is omniscient. He has always known who will and who won't believe.


Even this verse refutes your calvinist leanings. God justifies (saves) THROUGH FAITH.

How 'bout that! Same as Eph 2:8.

There you go again.. leaving things out of the context. You said:

"1 Cor 1:21 tells us plainly WHY God saves people.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

you don't have to like this verse and what it teaches, or believe what it teaches. But it is God's Word nonetheless.

God is pleased to save those who believe."

In this we all agree - God is pleased to save those who believe. Believing is THE CONDITION placed on being saved. But who can believe? These two verses - Say what the unregenerate person thinks of the Gospel message:

1Cor 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; This is basically the same thing declared earlier in verse 21a - is it not? The World has only its own form of wisdom - which we know God calls foolishness.

Therefore, the ones who will believe, is clarified in the following verses of the context:

1Cor 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cor 1:26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Cor 1:27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
1Cor 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are:
1Cor 1:29 that no flesh should glory before God.

Called is used three times and God's choice is used twice. Therefore, where is your boasting?

 

[FreeGrace2]

do you even read what you post?

Duh.

If i was a Clavinist i would gladly say so . Thank you for posting those 5 Scriptural points !

They weren't Scriptural points. So you ARE a calvinist.

Since you think the 5 points are Scriptural, I'm sure you have at least 1 verse that plainly teaches each point. btw, it is #5b that is biblical, but not 5a.

Posting the most words does not make one correct.

who's counting?

How can anyone believe what you say when you contradict your self so clearly ?

OK lady, please prove this charge. Quote my contradiction and post #.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

Sure reads like what folks label Calvinism your learning

Looks as though you don't comprehend what V.45 says.

It says those who have listened and learned will come to Jesus. Fact: to listen and learn are volitional actions. Actions that people do.

Which is the direct opposite of the calvinistic claim that God causes people to believe.

If He did, there would be clear verses that say so. None do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Beckie said:
I am not trying to negate anything just posted the Scriptures ...
Once again i have never studied any of Calvin's writings . I have studied Scofield and his bible . Read much of the dispensational teachings . Had i studied Calvin's work i would most likely say thank you when someone tried to use the word Calvinist as a slam. About 30 years ago i was kicked out of "chats' for posting Scripture your posts are no different.

I full well know it was Eve who ate first and she got Adam to eat the fruit. I mistakenly thought a grown man would understand the word man to mean mankind, i even used the word mankind a couple times .. sheesh

Keep firmly rooted in THE Truth and let no man fool you. (Or is it boy or maybe human being or perhaps mankind or... well its not men) LOL

Your in good company with Calvin. Like you, the Spirit impressed upon me the Truth of Salvation, when I first started studying the Book of John. I had never even heard of John Calvin nor had I ever heard a preacher on the subject.

But John Calvin is joined by the likes of: Augustine, Martin Luther, John Gill, Albert Barnes, Johnathan Edwards, A. W. Pink, Charles Spurgeon, John McArthur and W. E. Best. All used heavily by the Lord to proclaim His Truth. May we be used in the same way.

Glory to the Lord of Salvation.

Please provide the single best and most clear verse that SAYS each of the 5 points of TULIP if calvinism is correct.

The only point that is biblical is eternal security. None of the other points are biblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When i was first labeled a calvinist i thought maybe calvinist had something to do with Calvary. Because both words start with CAL . That was about 30 years ago ,,, thanks for the encouragement, awelight,

Why have you been trying to distance yourself from calvinism then?

 

[FreeGrace2]

There you go again.. leaving things out of the context. You said:

"1 Cor 1:21 tells us plainly WHY God saves people.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

you don't have to like this verse and what it teaches, or believe what it teaches. But it is God's Word nonetheless.

God is pleased to save those who believe."

In this we all agree - God is pleased to save those who believe. Believing is THE CONDITION placed on being saved.

I didn't leave anything out.

But who can believe? These two verses - Say what the unregenerate person thinks of the Gospel message:

1Cor 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; This is basically the same thing declared earlier in verse 21a - is it not? The World has only its own form of wisdom - which we know God calls foolishness.

Go ahead and quote ANY verse in any of the NT that says that God causes people to believe. Or that a person MUST BE regenerated in order to believe.

Therefore, the ones who will believe, is clarified in the following verses of the context:

John 6:45 tells us very plainly who will "come to Jesus". Those who listen and learn from the Father. iow, they are seeking and He is leading.

1Cor 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cor 1:26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Cor 1:27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
1Cor 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are:
1Cor 1:29 that no flesh should glory before God.

Called is used three times and God's choice is used twice. Therefore, where is your boasting?

No boasting. Where is your Greek lexicon? You need it to LEARN what "called" means in the Greek. It means "to invite".

Basically what Titus 2:11 says. "The grace of God offers (invitation) salvation to everyone".

I'd love to see a verse for each of TULIP's point. I KNOW there are none.

 

[Beckie]

Duh.


They weren't Scriptural points. So you ARE a calvinist.

Since you think the 5 points are Scriptural, I'm sure you have at least 1 verse that plainly teaches each point. btw, it is #5b that is biblical, but not 5a.


who's counting?


OK lady, please prove this charge. Quote my contradiction and post #.

 

[Beckie]

Duh.


They weren't Scriptural points. So you ARE a calvinist.

Since you think the 5 points are Scriptural, I'm sure you have at least 1 verse that plainly teaches each point. btw, it is #5b that is biblical, but not 5a.


who's counting?


OK lady, please prove this charge. Quote my contradiction and post #.

Please read Post #3701 .. in it are 2 of your postings. this is the charge you asked for

I haven't charged you with trying to negate anything.

 

[rogerg]

Nope. Doesn't say "cause". It says "given". As in permit, or allow. Way different.

Words DO mean things. And you don't get to twist them.

It doesn't have to say "cause" , it says "given", and you don't get to make the rules. Your reply is absurd. If anyone is trying to twist the words, it's you. Its meaning is self-evident and clear. "given" does not mean "permit", not to mention that "permit" would make no sense in this context. You try to impose your own rules so the verse will fit your perception of what you think it should say - and what you want it to say -- rather than of what it does say - and your replies get more absurd with every succeeding post. You lose creditability when you make these kinds of ridiculous statements

Doesn't say anything about God being the cause of people believing.

So verse 20 doesn't define who the cause of people's believing is? Really? Here I'll repost and add another verse. The "who by him" is Christ from verses 19 & 20. It is undeniable: by Him do we believe.

[1Pe 1:19-21 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

v.28 explains why Jesus used the word "work". The Jews asked Jesus what "work God requires for eternal life". They were thinking about what kind of work that God required for salvation.

btw, both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 show that faith is NOT a work. In any sense.

V28 does not explain why Jesus used the word "work" - at least not according to your reasoning of it.
Here again, you've imposed your own interpretation on the verse to force it into meaning what you want it to mean,
when it clearly didn't convey any such thing. Jesus used "work" because it is a work -- God's work-- and you have no biblical
basis for making it seem otherwise. These verses are self-evident and clear within themselves with no other inferences to them needed or acceptable. Anything that someone must DO to acquire belief of themselves is a work simply by the fact that they must do it. Romans 4:5, in saying "worketh not but believeth on him", is actually confirming and substantiating Eph 2:8:9 that it is God's work not their work -- that is the only way it could not be a work and not sin.

Sorry again to inform you that this verse doesn't support your calvinism. Show from the context that this precedes salvation.

The "covenant" of v16, was accomplished through Christ. Otherwise, how could someone believe from the heart, as you've said previously, until God's law of Christ has been put into their heart (v16). Precede salvation? V16 doesn't precede salvation, it is
salvation, hence v17.

[Heb 10:14-17 KJV]
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Beckie]

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

So you as a dad give the facts, lets say the facts about driving to your kid. You hand him the DMV booklet you have given him the facts but have you taught him. Maybe you give the facts of baking cookies to your kid is that really teaching them?

All be taught by God does not say God gave them facts clearly says "They will all be taught by God" you attempting to change the verbiage does not change the Word of God.

 

[Beckie]

This is what calvinists believe:
1. man is unable to believe the gospel and therefore requires that God regenerate him/her so they can and will believe.
2. God chose/elected certain individuals for salvation apart from any condition (that would include faith as a condition).
3. Christ did not die for everyone, but only for these certain elected individuals.
4. God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chooses for salvation WILL believe.
5. a. all believers WILL persevere in the faith.
b. all believers will be eternally secure.

About the above ..... , After reading your postings and seeing how you distort and deny what you say , I will have to do some Calvinistic study to post a reply . As stated i have not studied Calvin's writings. I do not trust the way you have worded your version of the 5 points. I have seen TULIP but never paid much attention to it Bout time i do.

 

[Iconoclast]

"FreeGrace2,
[Once again a calvinist quotes 1 verse but leaves out the very next verse, which EXPLAINS who will come to Jesus. And it isn't about unconditional election.]

No...Verse 37 explains why they come, unconditional election. All the Father gives me shall come. verse 45 shows the end result, right after it was explained that no man CAN COME, except the Father who sent me draws him.



v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

[Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21
Blue words describe what some from the "all" do: listen and learn from the Father.
Green words is the result of listening and learning from the Father; coming to Jesus.]

No Jesus was quite clear. That quote was taken from Isa54:13 speaking of the Covenant children from among the gentiles worldwide.
The previously untaught Gentiles were going to be drawn and taught by the Father, out of darkness into light.
The writer to Hebrews speaks of these children given in Hebrews 2:13-16. They are the seed of Abraham from the nations.


[Once having understood that, v.10 and 11 are quotes from Psa 14:1-3, which is about the fact that atheists claim there is no God. So obviously "none of them will seek after God"].

God looked down to see if there were ANY...THERE WAS NONE

[To apply v.11 to the entire human race is a big mistake. In fact, the Bible recognizes that there are people who DO SEEK God.

They do not seek God savingly.

 

[Iconoclast]

About the above ..... , After reading your postings and seeing how you distort and deny what you say , I will have to do some Calvinistic study to post a reply . As stated i have not studied Calvin's writings. I do not trust the way you have worded your version of the 5 points. I have seen TULIP but never paid much attention to it Bout time i do.

http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK lady, please prove this charge. Quote my contradiction and post #.

...

Yep. Just crickets.

Empty claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please read Post #3701 .. in it are 2 of your postings. this is the charge you asked for

No, this isn't how this works. You made a specific claim/charge. Don't give me such a vague response.

You need to quote the "2" of my postings and explain how they are contradictory.

What is clear is that you are stalling.