Pentecostalism's sketchy origins
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I get that you're angry and offended, and want an apology. Yet, from my POV I've nothing to apologize about, as it appears to me that I've (so to speak) said "the emperor has no clothes." If you want to be bitter about it, there's nothing I can do about that, except to say "I apologize for offending you." If you have something of value to offer to the conversation, I would appreciate it. But if not, then I think this conversation should be over as you said already.
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i only know, and have, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes down from the Father thru Christ.
The LORD says: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" = follow and embrace His Way His Truth and His Life.
Do you have a scripture that shows the difference between 'modern' tongues and the tongues that the Apostles and others spoke and glorified God in???
The LORD says: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" = follow and embrace His Way His Truth and His Life.
Do you have a scripture that shows the difference between 'modern' tongues and the tongues that the Apostles and others spoke and glorified God in???
Please read carefully and as the Truth speaks = "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts" 1 Cor 14:1
i just read your Post #1200 now again and read something very disturbing from you - so PLEASE listen.
Calling God's Word(1 Corinthians ch14) "B.S" and declaring what God calls Holy as unholy is the trademark of false religion and of the Pharisees who condemned their own Messiah.
God's Word is TRUTH which many on here think of themselves as capable of readjusting to fit their desire.
This type of mind set comes from religion, is dangerous and causes division in the fellowship of Christ.
i care about everyone on here, even those who sneer, gossip and speak evil of me.
FAR BETTER then this is LOVE
We can walk in His Love which is TRUE.
(am i perfect = NOPE = have i made mistakes/YES , do i give up/NO , do i forgive/YES)
This I recall to my mind,
Therefore I have hope.
Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed,
Because His compassions fail not.
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
“The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I hope in Him!”
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Promise of the FATHER which we have heard from JESUS the Messiah
This we know is TRUE and GOOD and never to be spoken evil of.
i just read your Post #1200 now again and read something very disturbing from you - so PLEASE listen.
Calling God's Word(1 Corinthians ch14) "B.S" and declaring what God calls Holy as unholy is the trademark of false religion and of the Pharisees who condemned their own Messiah.
God's Word is TRUTH which many on here think of themselves as capable of readjusting to fit their desire.
This type of mind set comes from religion, is dangerous and causes division in the fellowship of Christ.
i care about everyone on here, even those who sneer, gossip and speak evil of me.
FAR BETTER then this is LOVE
We can walk in His Love which is TRUE.
(am i perfect = NOPE = have i made mistakes/YES , do i give up/NO , do i forgive/YES)
This I recall to my mind,
Therefore I have hope.
Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed,
Because His compassions fail not.
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
“The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I hope in Him!”
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Promise of the FATHER which we have heard from JESUS the Messiah
This we know is TRUE and GOOD and never to be spoken evil of.
There are fakes in the P/C movements. That's an established fact. And they are multiplying with the Falling Away. Some see them everywhere because they are looking only for them. Others don't see them because they're not looking for them.
Now if both groups would admit this, this OP would only be a few pages long.
I admit it, & I'm a conservative Pentecostal. It's in my church where God has led me to. I'm sure it's in every Pentecostal church.
If one was to say, "not in my church" that person can't see the real church from the fake, the true from the performers.
For many years I believed this myself.
Here's the thing... we know the Falling Away is now running at a breakneck pace, yet we still can't seem to properly track it. The truth is, without the Lord's help, we will never see it as it is.
I sincerely believe neither side can see it all, because if they did, both would get on their knees & pray for the church, & stop the bickering. A great deal of the church is backsliding, & here we are arguing about it.
IF neither side can join hands with the other & pray, it's because we are already there ourselves.
How long will we continue before we wake up, & say, "IT'S ME, O LORD STANDING IN THE NEED OF PRAYER"?
If we wake up at all.
Now if both groups would admit this, this OP would only be a few pages long.
I admit it, & I'm a conservative Pentecostal. It's in my church where God has led me to. I'm sure it's in every Pentecostal church.
If one was to say, "not in my church" that person can't see the real church from the fake, the true from the performers.
For many years I believed this myself.
Here's the thing... we know the Falling Away is now running at a breakneck pace, yet we still can't seem to properly track it. The truth is, without the Lord's help, we will never see it as it is.
I sincerely believe neither side can see it all, because if they did, both would get on their knees & pray for the church, & stop the bickering. A great deal of the church is backsliding, & here we are arguing about it.
IF neither side can join hands with the other & pray, it's because we are already there ourselves.
How long will we continue before we wake up, & say, "IT'S ME, O LORD STANDING IN THE NEED OF PRAYER"?
If we wake up at all.
K
Quote "You keep singing the praises of your ministry. But what I see is your responses. I get that you're proud of yourself,"
That's a rather backhanded apology. You're blaming me for being offended by your comment. It's not about bitterness. You don't know me personally, you don't know my testimony, you don't know my heart, you don't know the trials. You don't know anything at all, but with that comment you judged my heart, my intent, my experiences. Maybe being right is more important to you. But you're apology lacked sincerity.
I have as much value to add to this conversation as you do, or anyone else here. I certainly have as much right. But I will dismantle this conversation down to nuts and bolts. I leave you with this question, is this issue salvic?
Are people who speak in tongues, in your mind, going to hell. If so, show me where the Bible flatly states that. Id you don't believe it's a salvic issue, why all the arguments about it?
That's a rather backhanded apology. You're blaming me for being offended by your comment. It's not about bitterness. You don't know me personally, you don't know my testimony, you don't know my heart, you don't know the trials. You don't know anything at all, but with that comment you judged my heart, my intent, my experiences. Maybe being right is more important to you. But you're apology lacked sincerity.
I have as much value to add to this conversation as you do, or anyone else here. I certainly have as much right. But I will dismantle this conversation down to nuts and bolts. I leave you with this question, is this issue salvic?
Are people who speak in tongues, in your mind, going to hell. If so, show me where the Bible flatly states that. Id you don't believe it's a salvic issue, why all the arguments about it?
Post #1,211 is what is seen from Scripture and applied for the past 2,000 years except for today's technological advancement.
It would be helpful if you would be specific in you question(s).
We are to "rightly dividing the word of truth."
There is a wrong way and a "right way" = Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
The Scripture is our support and foundation as we are instructed by the LORD = "Thy word is Truth" John ch17
It would be helpful if you would be specific in you question(s).
We are to "rightly dividing the word of truth."
There is a wrong way and a "right way" = Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
The Scripture is our support and foundation as we are instructed by the LORD = "Thy word is Truth" John ch17
"Charismatic craziness" Pentecostalism goes way way back to the very early church. Unfortunately I can't remember now but it's something like second third century A.D. I was thinking Sabellianism but I just can't remember.
As for me I am NOT a secessionist. However I believe that the sign gifts are no longer operating in the world today.
And I will tell you why: Because if authentic sign gifts were functioning today (including tongues), they would be known to be a FACT beyond all shadow of a doubt. Because this is the very purpose of sign gifts to begin with!
I have attended "tongues speaking Pentecostal" Churches a few times, and there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the tongues were BOGUS. Tragically bogus. Self-deluded babbling baby talk is NOT authentic biblical tongues. Same goes for this falling over slaying in the Spirit business. Absolute rubbish. Sideshow carnival antics nothing more.
Furthermore under scrutiny there is no difference whatsoever between the "tongues" spoken by the "prosperity gospel name it and claim it" Satanic freaks like Copeland and that which I heard at the friendly neighborhood Pentecostal assembly. And so-called tongues spoken so casually by members.
Nevertheless there's no doubt that many many Pentecostals are genuinely saved people. But for my part I cannot attend a hard core Pentecostal assembly. Just as I could not attend an amillennialist or replacement theology assembly. Just too messed up.
As for me I am NOT a secessionist. However I believe that the sign gifts are no longer operating in the world today.
And I will tell you why: Because if authentic sign gifts were functioning today (including tongues), they would be known to be a FACT beyond all shadow of a doubt. Because this is the very purpose of sign gifts to begin with!
I have attended "tongues speaking Pentecostal" Churches a few times, and there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the tongues were BOGUS. Tragically bogus. Self-deluded babbling baby talk is NOT authentic biblical tongues. Same goes for this falling over slaying in the Spirit business. Absolute rubbish. Sideshow carnival antics nothing more.
Furthermore under scrutiny there is no difference whatsoever between the "tongues" spoken by the "prosperity gospel name it and claim it" Satanic freaks like Copeland and that which I heard at the friendly neighborhood Pentecostal assembly. And so-called tongues spoken so casually by members.
Nevertheless there's no doubt that many many Pentecostals are genuinely saved people. But for my part I cannot attend a hard core Pentecostal assembly. Just as I could not attend an amillennialist or replacement theology assembly. Just too messed up.
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The Holy Spirit is the Authoritative Voice of His Gifts as HE recorded in the Scriptures.
Fake, false manifestations are just that = FAKE and I AGREE with everyone who is able to recognize the fake from the REAL.
No one has the Authority to override or compromise the Scripture:
And Jesus says.....For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” "It is Written you shall worship the LORD.
No one has authority over the Gospel: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
No one has authority over Acts: And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
No one has authority over 1 Corinthians: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification...................................
Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
Let all things be done decently and in order.
Never attach the false christs/teachers/prophets upon the teachings/commandments of the LORD, the Apostles and the Holy Spirit.
The GREATEST BLESSING after PROMISE #1 is PROMISE #2
Fake, false manifestations are just that = FAKE and I AGREE with everyone who is able to recognize the fake from the REAL.
No one has the Authority to override or compromise the Scripture:
And Jesus says.....For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” "It is Written you shall worship the LORD.
No one has authority over the Gospel: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
No one has authority over Acts: And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
No one has authority over 1 Corinthians: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification...................................
Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
Let all things be done decently and in order.
Never attach the false christs/teachers/prophets upon the teachings/commandments of the LORD, the Apostles and the Holy Spirit.
The GREATEST BLESSING after PROMISE #1 is PROMISE #2
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Signs and wonders are Christ's Blessings for His Church. If you have deep faith, and are working to spread the Gospel, they will happen. I have seen healings of cancer in late stages. There is Great Power in Prayer and Lord Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He still works miracles today through His Holy Spirit just like He did in the Early Church. It's just that we often lack the faith the first believers had. Let's pray for Our Lord Jesus to increase our faith in Him, and to love one another more, and grow in His Grace, and we will see His Power. I believe God is not yet done with the world, as some may think He is, but that we will have one more Great Harvest before the End of Time. And this Great Harvest will be accompanied by signs and wonders just as it was in the beginning of the Church.
"7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked." (Acts 14)
"7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked." (Acts 14)
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That's pretty much the way I look at it. Anyone can speak the "tongues" that are practiced today, just open your mouth and start babbling something. That's not a miracle, anyone can do that.
Unfortunately the jury's still out on that one for me. I've met many loving and great people in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches; however, you also find great and loving people among LDSs and Catholics. Pentecostals would be the first to say that if people in those groups persist in hardening their hearts to the truth, they won't be counted among the saved. But they don't seem to apply the same standard to themselves. Obviously they don't see themselves as deceived; but I always think about Matthew 7:22-23:
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' "
Even to the very end this group of people won't get it.
Unfortunately the jury's still out on that one for me. I've met many loving and great people in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches; however, you also find great and loving people among LDSs and Catholics. Pentecostals would be the first to say that if people in those groups persist in hardening their hearts to the truth, they won't be counted among the saved. But they don't seem to apply the same standard to themselves. Obviously they don't see themselves as deceived; but I always think about Matthew 7:22-23:
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' "
Even to the very end this group of people won't get it.
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O
It's like I went to a mountain-top. Then I went back to the valley. I told people about the mountain-top. Some said, "There's no mountain...I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist." Then they go around trying to convince others that there is no mountain.
" 6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…" - Matthew 7:6-8
" 6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…" - Matthew 7:6-8
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As I see it, potentially the devastating problem with Pentecostalism is the continued perpetual....even NECESSARY "seeking after a sign". In other words, if signs DO NOT manifest, maybe Jesus has left the building, somebody lacks faith, is unsaved etc. Major guilt trip.
BTW.....There is nothing I would like better than to witness sign gifts....and DO them. But rumors of signs with no evidence? Forget it.
BTW.....There is nothing I would like better than to witness sign gifts....and DO them. But rumors of signs with no evidence? Forget it.
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