Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[DavidTree]

I love all peoples.
Some just doesn't understand that ........they live in glass houses and should not throw rocks. That includes you.

i throw rubber rocks - they bounce and cause no harm

 

[DavidTree]

I you start uttering words that no one in the room can understand, it is of no benefit to anyone. Therefore, they should not be uttered.
Nor is the spirit that guides those words "Holy".
There is ZERO support for this activity in scripture.
IMHO

Did i not warn you that pride lies at your door.
First you speak a horrific error = "God's Name not in the Bible"
Whereas the Word of God says: "LORD Jesus Christ - "Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Now you call the working of the Holy Spirit as "unholy".

Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort. The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.
But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.
So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

 

[peldom10]

no, but one should know the context and origin of the term one uses when saying something is a denomination when it was not

and FYI the Acts chapter 2 experience is in all version of the Bible )

just to be clear "pentacostel " is not a denomination it is one that Identifies with the Pentacost experience recorded in Acts chapter 2.

Forgive..I concluded a miss spelling was there and read it as Pentacostal.
Isn't the correct word then...Pentacost...you are referring?...not "pentacostel"?

 

[DavidTree]

First pentecostal...Christ....?...show me scriptures.
Even show me one scripture which supports any denomination.

ALL the Feasts are Present in the LORD Jesus Christ.

At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”
“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him.
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

Here we see the Lord Jesus Christ is the First to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

NOTE: God did not start denominations, man did. Neither do i promote any denomination.

 

[CS1]

Forgive..I concluded a miss spelling was there and read it as Pentacostal.
Isn't the correct word then...Pentacost...you are referring to?...not "pentacostel"?

Yes, you are correct the Day signified was Pentacost Acts chapter 2. The ones who identify with the experience seen in Acts chapter 2 today are known as Pentecostals. AOG, Four square technologically is known as fellowship, not a denomination

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Pentecostalism stressed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 were intended to characterize the life of the contemporary church.

Precious friend, simply said:
-----------------------
The Holy Spirit and the Pentecostal believers (CR Stam):

The prophesied work of the Holy Spirit in connection with His people Israel should be clearly understood if we would understand His work today in connection with the members of the Body of Christ. In Joel 2:28,29 God Promised To Supernaturally Cause them to prophesy, etc., but in Ezekiel 36:26,27, He Also Promised To Supernaturally Cause them to do His Will:

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, AND DO THEM.”​

Thus God would show that The Only Way in which even His own people can perfectly obey Him is when He Takes Possession of them And Causes them to do His Will. Indeed, He is still demonstrating this. Though we today have all the advantages and blessings of the Dispensation of Grace, and though we desire most earnestly to obey and serve God as we ought, we still continually fall short.

This is because, contrary to popular opinion, none of us has been baptized with the Spirit (See Acts 1:5 and cf. I Cor. 12:13). We must be careful to notice the immediate change that took place in the behavior of the Pentecostal believers, now that the Holy Spirit had come to take possession of them. Not only did they speak with tongues and prophesy and work miracles, but they all began living for one another.

“And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common” (Acts 4:32).​

We have not observed this way of life among those who call themselves Pentecostalists today.
-----------------------------
Correct?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Nehemiah6]

Isn't the correct word then...Pentacost...you are referring?...not "pentacostel"?

The correct words are Pentecost and Pentecostal.

 

[JTB]

Now we are to select a particular version of the Bible to validate a point!!!!!!?

If it was not so serious...it would be funny.

It depends on the point you are trying to validate...

 

[Amanuensis]

Precious friend, simply said:
-----------------------
The Holy Spirit and the Pentecostal believers (CR Stam):

The prophesied work of the Holy Spirit in connection with His people Israel should be clearly understood if we would understand His work today in connection with the members of the Body of Christ. In Joel 2:28,29 God Promised To Supernaturally Cause them to prophesy, etc., but in Ezekiel 36:26,27, He Also Promised To Supernaturally Cause them to do His Will:

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, AND DO THEM.”​

Thus God would show that The Only Way in which even His own people can perfectly obey Him is when He Takes Possession of them And Causes them to do His Will. Indeed, He is still demonstrating this. Though we today have all the advantages and blessings of the Dispensation of Grace, and though we desire most earnestly to obey and serve God as we ought, we still continually fall short.

This is because, contrary to popular opinion, none of us has been baptized with the Spirit (See Acts 1:5 and cf. I Cor. 12:13). We must be careful to notice the immediate change that took place in the behavior of the Pentecostal believers, now that the Holy Spirit had come to take possession of them. Not only did they speak with tongues and prophesy and work miracles, but they all began living for one another.

“And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common” (Acts 4:32).​

We have not observed this way of life among those who call themselves Pentecostalists today.
-----------------------------
Correct?

GRACE And Peace...

We do see this way of life among Pentecostals especially in those countries where Pentecostalism is spreading faster than any other evangelical churches, in Latin American and many poor countries.

First let's make sure we understand the text. if you consider the the immediate context of what was happening there was a current crisis need for this. These people had traveled from many different neighboring countries to celebrate Pentecost in Jerusalem. Having now been born again and filled with the Holy Spirit they were wanting to learn from the apostles teaching everything they could instead of returning home after Pentecost as they had originally planned and so they needed provisions to stay.

They had not prepared to stay this long and the only way that they could stay for such an extended time was that each member contributed to meet the needs of all.

However too much has been made of this and people sometimes describe something imagined from their minds that the text does not say. They imagine communal living and that this was the way the church was to operate as some kind of rule. As if this text says a true book of Acts church will have all members contribute all their assets for distribution to each even when there is no crisis need for such a thing.

I don't think there were any such rules, or expectations, but that this is the love they showed to those who had need who wanted to stay on in Jerusalem and learn from the doctrine of the apostles about Jesus and to be established in their new faith.

Today I think you can find Christians banding together and making sure that all the members of the church are cared for. We can find examples of it in Africa, in Latin America, in China, in India, and most of these examples are Pentecostal churches. I am sure that non pentecostal churches do it also. When ever there is a crisis and people are in need, the church members who have more will help make sure that others are taken care of.

In countries like the US where it is rare to find any members of the church that are actually without food, housing etc, we tend to contribute in other ways. For example it is common for Lawyers to do expensive legal work for their churches for no cost. Construction workers band together and use their vacation time and labor to work on churches or plant new ones at no cost. Many people in a Pentecostal (or non Pentecostal) churches contribute their time and skills for free and they would not do it for anyone else but they feel a love of God and for His Church that compels them. I just heard of a company last night that donated 40K worth of survey work for a church project. Why? They were brothers in the Lord who believe in Christians helping one another.

We do see this characteristic in our churches but sometimes people miss it because they are looking for some kind of imagined commune living that the text never intended.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I agree. But it was Pentecostals especially who embraced the Toronto Blessing. In Australia, the AOG and CRC, the two main Pentecostal denominations, were almost 100% behind it. A number of charismatics fell for it also. The biggest Baptist church in Australia said no thanks.

I can go into this in depth. A number of us thought at first it was a genuine revival. We were not looking to condemn it from the start. We are not anti the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and we believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are valid for today. However, we believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to make what is of Christ real in the Christian's experience. The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus. If the "spirit" is not glorifying Jesus, then it is not the Holy Spirit.

The weakness in much of Pentecostalism is spiritual pride. I was a member of a Baptist church. The pastor initially rejected the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He came back from a conference where he'd had a change of heart. Most of the congregation embraced it also. Those who did not, left. I became a member just after this event. I noticed how contemptuous many were towards those who had not been so touched. "Hang on, were you not there yesterday?", I thought to myself. I was still a baby in Jesus. So I said nothing. I'd not hold back now.

The Welsh Revival started with multitudes being convicted of sin and turning to Christ. It transformed whole communities. The miners had to retrain their pit ponies because they were used to swearing and cursing as part of the commands, and so when the miners turned to Christ, their swearing and cursing disappeared and the pit ponies didn't know any commands without the curses that went with them.

But as the revival progressed, the kundalini manifestations came to the fore. Jesse Penn-Lewis recognised that many of these manifestations were dodgy, and so she wrote her book, "War On The Saints", which exposed the manifestations as of another spirit and not of the Holy Spirit. Most Pentecostals didn't accept Penn-Lewis' findings and viewed her as a false teacher. I read her book and I agree with what she wrote.

Similarly, the Brownsville revival started with many people being converted, but went the same way as the Welsh revival. I think that Jesse Penn-Lewis' book applies there as well.

 

[JeffA]

Did i not warn you that pride lies at your door.
First you speak a horrific error = "God's Name not in the Bible"
Whereas the Word of God says: "LORD Jesus Christ - "Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Now you call the working of the Holy Spirit as "unholy".

Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort. The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.
But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.
So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Maybe you believe that God's name, "YHWH", was not replaced by the same term that the Assyrian god, Ashur, is called by his followers.
Maybe you believe that Abib is not the first month, but the Babylonian month Nissan, is.
Maybe you believe the Pharisees disappeared after 70 AD.
Maybe you believe that Jesus arose on Sunday.
Maybe you believe that Dec. 25th is Jesus' birthday (not Mithra's) and Christmas is not Pagan at it's root.
Maybe you believe that Easter is not to celebrate Ishtar.
Maybe you believe that Saturday is not Sabbath.
Maybe you believe that each day begins at sundown.
Maybe you believe that uttering syllables unknown to any on earth is some "heavenly" language.

I would disagree with you on each of these points. I would love you anyway.

I don't know the depths of your belief (or the depth of your own pride).

I do hope and pray that your path and your search will lead you to truth.
May God bless you.

 

[JeffA]

BTW. My son and I are music ministers at an AOG church.

 

[TDidymas]

I am sure that you already know this but Pentecostals (and many other scholars who have commented on the text) believe that Paul was talking about in the assembly not all speak in tongues.

But all did on the day of Pentecost and each event in Acts so therefore he must be talking about in the assembly which he explains should be done one at a time and with an interpreter and not every one is going to operate in this gift.

Otherwise you would have Luke saying everyone spoke in tongues and Paul saying they didn't. Which is not the case. Both must reconcile and understanding the context of Paul in 1 Cor 14 would be that not everyone is going to utter a tongue in the assembly for the purpose of someone with the gift of interpretation interpreting it.

He said just two or three at the most. But he did not intend for anyone to misapply that and insist that not everyone spoke in tongues in the several Acts accounts recorded by Luke because everyone of them did.

To say that believing that everyone of them did in the Acts account, and then to say that this cannot happen in modern accounts because Paul said "do all speak in tongues" is to force a meaning Paul did not intend and to ignore the fact that all did speak in tongues in the Act accounts. Paul knew that. Therefore Paul had to mean in the context of what he explained about taking turns in the assembly for interpretation.

Would you be so bold as to say "Paul? Yes. They all spoke in tongues in the Acts accounts, didn't you know that?"

Of course you would not say that in answer to Paul's question because common sense tells you that Paul already knew that, and therefore Paul must be talking about the manifestation of one or two or at the most three in the assembly while another gives the interpretation. Not all will operate in that gift.

I disagree with your spin on this as well. Yes, they all spoke in tongues in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost. No, they did not all speak simultaneously, since it says "they began to speak..." They all had flames of fire on their heads, which did not ever happen again. The shekinah of the Spirit was stronger at first than later, so they all did it. But many (if not all) of the 3000 who became Christians that day did not speak in tongues, since it says nothing about that. If they had all spoken in tongues, surely that would have been significant enough to mention it in the historical narrative, but there is no mention. Therefore, my conclusion is that only the 120 got the gift of tongues, but all received the Spirit, were baptized, and were added to the church.

The other 2 places in Acts that mention tongues were significant because it was new groups: Gentile proselytes in Acts 10 (in Caesarea in Judea), and disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19 in Ephesus (far from Judea). It was important for these groups to have an immediate visible manifestation to show the apostles that God was working among the gentiles, outside of the Jewish circles - Acts 11:18. It is not reasonable to assume that every Christian spoke in tongues. This fits well in the framework of Paul's statements in 1 Cor. 12.

 

[DavidTree]

Maybe you believe that God's name, "YHWH", was not replaced by the same term that the Assyrian god, Ashur, is called by his followers.
Maybe you believe that Abib is not the first month, but the Babylonian month Nissan, is.
Maybe you believe the Pharisees disappeared after 70 AD.
Maybe you believe that Jesus arose on Sunday.
Maybe you believe that Dec. 25th is Jesus' birthday (not Mithra's) and Christmas is not Pagan at it's root.
Maybe you believe that Easter is not to celebrate Ishtar.
Maybe you believe that Saturday is not Sabbath.
Maybe you believe that each day begins at sundown.
Maybe you believe that uttering syllables unknown to any on earth is some "heavenly" language.

I would disagree with you on each of these points. I would love you anyway.

I don't know the depths of your belief (or the depth of your own pride).

I do hope and pray that your path and your search will lead you to truth.
May God bless you.

On the contrary, we walk together on these points as i do see the corruption of Babylon in the churches.

Search the scriptures concerning YHWH and you will see that it is JESUS/YESHUA.

Which is the REASON why Elohim Name was never removed from the Bible.

The Eternal Elohim = Elohe Abraham Elohe Isaac Elohe Jacob was way ahead of the attack on His words and has it covered - in advance = before the world began.

Now this is what the Yahweh/Yahuah says—
He who created you, O Jacob,
and He who created you, O Israel:

For I am the Yahweh/Yahuah your Eloheka/Divine Rulers - Plural,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Before Me no el/single god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am Yahweh/Yahuah,
and there is no Savior but Me. - Isaiah ch43

Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” = Yeshua HaMoshiach Acts 4:12

If you knew me you would rejoice with me, for Christ in me is for you and not against you.
YES, i receive your love and have the same for you and one day you will SEE these things which i speak of to you my Brother.

 

[JeffA]

On the contrary, we walk together on these points as i do see the corruption of Babylon in the churches.

Search the scriptures concerning YHWH and you will see that it is JESUS/YESHUA.

Which is the REASON why Elohim Name was never removed from the Bible.

The Eternal Elohim = Elohe Abraham Elohe Isaac Elohe Jacob was way ahead of the attack on His words and has it covered - in advance = before the world began.

Now this is what the Yahweh/Yahuah says—
He who created you, O Jacob,
and He who created you, O Israel:

For I am the Yahweh/Yahuah your Eloheka/Divine Rulers - Plural,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Before Me no el/single god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am Yahweh/Yahuah,
and there is no Savior but Me. - Isaiah ch43

Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” = Yeshua HaMoshiach Acts 4:12

If you knew me you would rejoice with me, for Christ in me is for you and not against you.
YES, i receive your love and have the same for you and one day you will SEE these things which i speak of to you my Brother.

I thank you and respect your reply. I'm glad we see things the same on several points.
I would, however, pose a correction on "Elohim". It is not a name but a title/descriptor.
It refers to "heavenly being" whereas "YHWH refers to WHICH heavenly being.

He said "YHWH", elohim of Abraham (God of Abraham) etc. YHWH being a name, God (or Elohim) being a title.

 

[DavidTree]

I thank you and respect your reply. I'm glad we see things the same on several points.
I would, however, pose a correction on "Elohim". It is not a name but a title/descriptor.
It refers to "heavenly being" whereas "YHWH refers to WHICH heavenly being.

He said "YHWH", elohim of Abraham (God of Abraham) etc. YHWH being a name, God (or Elohim) being a title.

AMEN - however YHWH permanently attaches His Name to His BEING = Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

Those chosen vessels of glory - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is the GOSPEL spelled and picture Perfect for us of YHWH and His Coming.

Peace and Blessing to you my Brother JeffA

 

[JeffA]

Your point on Jesus (Yahushua) being YHWH would involve a deeper discussion of the Trinity.
Jesus prayed to God the Father, YHWH. Yet, he was also "of" Him. So is the Holy Spirit. So, they are ONE in that sense.
I don't think that counts well toward replacing "YHWH" with "Jesus" throughout the Bible.
I did suggest that on another thread, but it was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[DavidTree]

Your point on Jesus (Yahushua) being YHWH would involve a deeper discussion of the Trinity.
Jesus prayed to God the Father, YHWH. Yet, he was also "of" Him. So is the Holy Spirit. So, they are ONE in that sense.
I don't think that counts well toward replacing "YHWH" with "Jesus" throughout the Bible.
I did suggest that on another thread, but it was tongue-in-cheek.

Did Jesus pray to YHWH or did HE pray to His Father???

yeah, i picked up on that

 

[JeffA]

AMEN - however YHWH permanently attaches His Name to His BEING = Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

Those chosen vessels of glory - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is the GOSPEL spelled and picture Perfect for us of YHWH and His Coming.

Peace and Blessing to you my Brother JeffA

I really like that perspective!
It brings to mind how the Passion of Christ was foreshadowed by the (near) sacrifice of Isaac.
Did you know that both Isaac and Jesus were born around Pentecost? Possibly the same day?

 

[DavidTree]

I really like that perspective!
It brings to mind how the Passion of Christ was foreshadowed by the (near) sacrifice of Isaac.
Did you know that both Isaac and Jesus were born around Pentecost? Possibly the same day?

i do now - thank you for that blessing of knowledge.