Christian tithing was started by the Roman Catholic Church
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Last week my Pastor asked me if I would become a Deacon/Elder. I told him I didn't believe in organized religion.
He told that to the congregation that day. I thought that was so cool.
True story.
I believe there are passages that say to give food for the priests but help the needy in person.
Something like that.
He told that to the congregation that day. I thought that was so cool.
True story.
I believe there are passages that say to give food for the priests but help the needy in person.
Something like that.
I believe most people who believe in tithing do so because they sincerely believe it is a biblical method to support the local assembly.
I also believe that two people can disagree about whether using the scriptures about tithing is allowable in teaching a principle about how the church should give from a willing heart and not consider it a law of tithing but rather a guide for giving a percentage according to how God prospers you and neither should feel comfortable about launching an accusation of False Doctrine over the head of the other.
I try to get people to embrace God's economy with 1 Cor 16:2 and let them figure out the percentage. I will tell them to pray about it and do what God leads them to do. If they decide that God wants them to give 10% woe to the man who tells them they are wrong. If they come up with another method of how much they give that is up to them. God leaves it to them.
However one can set up a structure based on 10% that people can voluntarily comply with for budgeting and planning purposes. These are just methods that are neither good or bad, they are just methods. We could ask for giving according to how God blesses you but suggesting 10% as a guide is not false doctrine it is helping people learn how to give to support the local church and it is part of discipleship. Only those who have a love and vision for the local church will ever grasp this. Only those who are obeying Christ in being fully involved in the local assembly through volunteering and ministry beyond Sunday Morning will appreciate their own and others responsibility to consistently give according to how God blesses you.
But as @arthurfleminger has posted, very few even give according to how God has prospered them each week.
Most people don't go to mega churches and viewing the condition of the church based on mega churches, and celebrity pastors will result in a warped sense of reality. Quit using them as the example of what is wrong with the church. They don't represent the church.
I also believe that two people can disagree about whether using the scriptures about tithing is allowable in teaching a principle about how the church should give from a willing heart and not consider it a law of tithing but rather a guide for giving a percentage according to how God prospers you and neither should feel comfortable about launching an accusation of False Doctrine over the head of the other.
I try to get people to embrace God's economy with 1 Cor 16:2 and let them figure out the percentage. I will tell them to pray about it and do what God leads them to do. If they decide that God wants them to give 10% woe to the man who tells them they are wrong. If they come up with another method of how much they give that is up to them. God leaves it to them.
However one can set up a structure based on 10% that people can voluntarily comply with for budgeting and planning purposes. These are just methods that are neither good or bad, they are just methods. We could ask for giving according to how God blesses you but suggesting 10% as a guide is not false doctrine it is helping people learn how to give to support the local church and it is part of discipleship. Only those who have a love and vision for the local church will ever grasp this. Only those who are obeying Christ in being fully involved in the local assembly through volunteering and ministry beyond Sunday Morning will appreciate their own and others responsibility to consistently give according to how God blesses you.
But as @arthurfleminger has posted, very few even give according to how God has prospered them each week.
Most people don't go to mega churches and viewing the condition of the church based on mega churches, and celebrity pastors will result in a warped sense of reality. Quit using them as the example of what is wrong with the church. They don't represent the church.
Most tithing preachers use one of two methods to manipulate the gullible: 1) Fear. That is, if you don't tithe at least 10% something bad will happen to you: Demons will get you, you'll struggle financially, etc. And it's probably better to give more on top of that just to be safe; 2) Greed. God will multiply you 200%, 500%, or even 1000%.
If a person wants to give 10% of their own free will because they love God and feel their donation is being used in a good way then by all means do so. But don't tell me the New Testament teaches it for all believers; and don't tell me I have to accept someone else's false interpretation of scripture.
If a person wants to give 10% of their own free will because they love God and feel their donation is being used in a good way then by all means do so. But don't tell me the New Testament teaches it for all believers; and don't tell me I have to accept someone else's false interpretation of scripture.
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I agree with most of that. Except for the word "most". There are just way too many who have been persuaded that their interpretation of the tithing principle is from appropriately applying the scriptural principle they believe is easy to see from reading the bible and they would present a strong case for that hermeneutic in a conversation with us. They don't believe they are manipulating people or have impure motives in teaching these principles but believe they come from the scriptures.
I do think that many of them feel uncomfortable with some of the statements that their organization has made, and when they repeat them wonder if they are wrong. When that happens they are going to be held accountable if they just keep saying something that their conscience is telling them is probably a wrong interpretation just because their organization says they should or because their leaders say they should.
I do wish more preachers would stop repeating some of those unbiblical things they say at offering time.
People do need to understand God's plan to use them to support the local assembly and how that works without the manipulation and false interpretations of Malachi.
I have not been around one of those kinds of churches since the 80s even though I know they exist. There are many other churches that don't teach Malachi when they take up an offering. Like I said, I think 1 Cor 16:2 is a great scripture for taking up an offering or for a once a month reminder about giving at the collection box on the way out. Even though it is about taking up a collection to be sent to other churches who were suffering, I think the principle of offering a portion as God had prospered them each week is a good principle in general and whether it is for a special offering or a general fund.
A little instruction about how giving in proportion as God has prospered you each week leaves it for them to make a free will offering and know that they are doing what God wants them to do in supporting the local assembly without guilting them into it.
However, since people are in a spiritual warfare it is common for the powers of darkness to keep them indifferent to their responsibility until one day while you are sharing the truth about God's economy and method for supporting the local church they suddenly get a revelation and see how they have been slacking and so it is good for the minister to remind them at least once a month. If nothing is ever said, the giving can be weak. We can say something in an inspiring, positive way that does not guilt or shame them, but if they do feel guilt or shame from their own neglect that is just God doing what he does and there is always joy in the middle of it because you know that God is showing you so that you can graduate to the next level.
We know that there will always be charlatans and hirelings that will use the tithe law falsely interpreted and applied to guilt people into giving, or appeal to their greed because it works and there are those who's motives are wrong. I do not believe that it is "most" preachers who believe in and teach tithing however. Most are probably convinced that they are following God.
Now "most" on the TV, or "most" celebrity preachers who harp on giving are probably guilty of having false motives but they don't represent most preachers who teach tithing.
I do think that many of them feel uncomfortable with some of the statements that their organization has made, and when they repeat them wonder if they are wrong. When that happens they are going to be held accountable if they just keep saying something that their conscience is telling them is probably a wrong interpretation just because their organization says they should or because their leaders say they should.
I do wish more preachers would stop repeating some of those unbiblical things they say at offering time.
People do need to understand God's plan to use them to support the local assembly and how that works without the manipulation and false interpretations of Malachi.
I have not been around one of those kinds of churches since the 80s even though I know they exist. There are many other churches that don't teach Malachi when they take up an offering. Like I said, I think 1 Cor 16:2 is a great scripture for taking up an offering or for a once a month reminder about giving at the collection box on the way out. Even though it is about taking up a collection to be sent to other churches who were suffering, I think the principle of offering a portion as God had prospered them each week is a good principle in general and whether it is for a special offering or a general fund.
A little instruction about how giving in proportion as God has prospered you each week leaves it for them to make a free will offering and know that they are doing what God wants them to do in supporting the local assembly without guilting them into it.
However, since people are in a spiritual warfare it is common for the powers of darkness to keep them indifferent to their responsibility until one day while you are sharing the truth about God's economy and method for supporting the local church they suddenly get a revelation and see how they have been slacking and so it is good for the minister to remind them at least once a month. If nothing is ever said, the giving can be weak. We can say something in an inspiring, positive way that does not guilt or shame them, but if they do feel guilt or shame from their own neglect that is just God doing what he does and there is always joy in the middle of it because you know that God is showing you so that you can graduate to the next level.
We know that there will always be charlatans and hirelings that will use the tithe law falsely interpreted and applied to guilt people into giving, or appeal to their greed because it works and there are those who's motives are wrong. I do not believe that it is "most" preachers who believe in and teach tithing however. Most are probably convinced that they are following God.
Now "most" on the TV, or "most" celebrity preachers who harp on giving are probably guilty of having false motives but they don't represent most preachers who teach tithing.
True. The principle of the tithe -- giving a tenth to God -- must have been taught to Abraham by God, since Abraham ( a prophet) gave tithes to Melchizedek (a Christophany of the Son of God) who blessed him (Gen 14:20) We read in Hebrews that because of this Levi gave tithes to God through Abraham. Also Jacob must have learned this principle from his father or grandfather since he also promised to give a tenth to God (Gen 28:22). Thus Israel was commanded to give a tenth of all their crops and their flocks to God (Lev 27:30,32). The Levites were to give a tenth part of the tithe to the LORD (Num 18:26), and the tithe was designated as "holy unto the LORD".
Under the New Covenant, God made Christian giving "a grace" called "liberality". Which meant that a higher standard of giving was expected of Christians: Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. (2 Cor 8:1,2) This principle was expressed by the Widow's Mite, who of her deep poverty gave her entire living to God. So the principle of the tenth was superseded by a higher principle, and we see this at work in the church at Jerusalem in the book of Acts.
The real issue today is the proper investment of the gifts and offering of Christians by the churches. Are most churches following the commandments of Christ and the apostles in the matter of where those funds should be applied?
Under the New Covenant, God made Christian giving "a grace" called "liberality". Which meant that a higher standard of giving was expected of Christians: Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. (2 Cor 8:1,2) This principle was expressed by the Widow's Mite, who of her deep poverty gave her entire living to God. So the principle of the tenth was superseded by a higher principle, and we see this at work in the church at Jerusalem in the book of Acts.
The real issue today is the proper investment of the gifts and offering of Christians by the churches. Are most churches following the commandments of Christ and the apostles in the matter of where those funds should be applied?
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I know from experience with churches and pastors that most people don't tithe. Maybe 20% or less in a congregation of 100.
Of course it might be more in a congregation of 5. LOL.
Tithing works. If each member does it in faith, (and they are obeying Christ in their lives) they will find that their income seems to rise and their tithe checks seem to rise. People have been proving that for 2000 years. Those that have other theories of giving usually don't give as much as the tithers.
If a person who has another theory of giving besides tithing reviews their giving over the year and determines they are way under 10% they should abandon their theory, increase their faith and make 10% a guide to help them accomplish the goal of actually giving as they should to support their church.
Theories and opinions about tithes not being a New Testament Law mean nothing if it results in not giving much. With God actions are weighed.
Having Faith that sets a 10% minimum giving goal and consistently meets it is a wonderful testimony of Faith giving and not a law.
People who don't have a vision for the local church or a revelation of important it is to Christ and the salvation he came to bring, resulting in a body of local believers, I just cannot relate to at all. I don't understand how anyone can be genuinely saved and not have an intense love for the local assembly and want to be a vital working part of one including giving on a regular basis. It makes no sense to me. I wonder if they even have the Holy Spirit. Maybe they are just pretending at religion and making up their own system of beliefs.
Of course it might be more in a congregation of 5. LOL.
Tithing works. If each member does it in faith, (and they are obeying Christ in their lives) they will find that their income seems to rise and their tithe checks seem to rise. People have been proving that for 2000 years. Those that have other theories of giving usually don't give as much as the tithers.
If a person who has another theory of giving besides tithing reviews their giving over the year and determines they are way under 10% they should abandon their theory, increase their faith and make 10% a guide to help them accomplish the goal of actually giving as they should to support their church.
Theories and opinions about tithes not being a New Testament Law mean nothing if it results in not giving much. With God actions are weighed.
Having Faith that sets a 10% minimum giving goal and consistently meets it is a wonderful testimony of Faith giving and not a law.
People who don't have a vision for the local church or a revelation of important it is to Christ and the salvation he came to bring, resulting in a body of local believers, I just cannot relate to at all. I don't understand how anyone can be genuinely saved and not have an intense love for the local assembly and want to be a vital working part of one including giving on a regular basis. It makes no sense to me. I wonder if they even have the Holy Spirit. Maybe they are just pretending at religion and making up their own system of beliefs.
Yes, I think most churches are accountable with boards and careful audits.
Celebrity pastors, Mega Churches (some, not all) and TV evangelists that milk people of money for their own indulgences are not what most churches do.
It is a shame that people use them to decry the state of the church in America but it is a false measurement of reality. Ignorant people have always been influenced by media to draw false conclusions about what most people are doing and it is no different when they judge churches based on things they see in media.
Most churches are using all that is given (which isn't much) to keep the lights on and pay a small stipend to a pastor who can't live off of it and must be bivocational. That is the state of MOST churches in America.
Celebrity pastors, Mega Churches (some, not all) and TV evangelists that milk people of money for their own indulgences are not what most churches do.
It is a shame that people use them to decry the state of the church in America but it is a false measurement of reality. Ignorant people have always been influenced by media to draw false conclusions about what most people are doing and it is no different when they judge churches based on things they see in media.
Most churches are using all that is given (which isn't much) to keep the lights on and pay a small stipend to a pastor who can't live off of it and must be bivocational. That is the state of MOST churches in America.
How is a church going to pay their pastor, run ministries, pay rent for a building, pay to send people out, pay for power etc?
This money comes from the congregation!
So tithing based on the likes of Malachi is old Testament practice but the principle remains in freely giving up a part of your income for Gods work.. which is primarily in His churches.
This money comes from the congregation!
So tithing based on the likes of Malachi is old Testament practice but the principle remains in freely giving up a part of your income for Gods work.. which is primarily in His churches.
It's wonderful to Give, Tithe, and Offer money, time, things!
Okay, it appears the 10% went out with the Old Testament BUT, GIVING is still Life Giving to the Giver and Receiver - totally aligns with God's Heart and His Ways.
Obviously, the AMOUNT does not matter to God because of what Jesus said about the mite that the widow woman gave in the offering at the Temple.
So, forget about the AMOUNT and just enjoy being a Giver!
Wisdom is needed because people will take advantage of you and there are "Pharisees" that take advantage of you....
Giving is sowing "seed" WHERE I am hoping to gain a HARVEST. If I sow into GOOD ground in the Kingdom of God, I will reap blessings as a believer in the Kingdom of God.
Just sow your seed (money, time, things, etc) with wisdom.
God delights in a cheerful Giver and especially a Giver that can give to others that can NEVER repay...... God says when we've done something to the least, we have done it to Him....
God's ways are sooooo much higher than ours...
Over a couple of years now, I've actually been giving 10% into the Kingdom of God and I must say..... my financial circumstances are seriously a miracle of increase!!! I've gone from struggling to take care of myself to God taking care of me and WOW! I wouldn't want it any other way - I LOVE God taking care of me! He truly is AMAZING!!!
It completely TERRIFIES me now NOT to give! LOL!
Okay, it appears the 10% went out with the Old Testament BUT, GIVING is still Life Giving to the Giver and Receiver - totally aligns with God's Heart and His Ways.
Obviously, the AMOUNT does not matter to God because of what Jesus said about the mite that the widow woman gave in the offering at the Temple.
So, forget about the AMOUNT and just enjoy being a Giver!
Wisdom is needed because people will take advantage of you and there are "Pharisees" that take advantage of you....
Giving is sowing "seed" WHERE I am hoping to gain a HARVEST. If I sow into GOOD ground in the Kingdom of God, I will reap blessings as a believer in the Kingdom of God.
Just sow your seed (money, time, things, etc) with wisdom.
God delights in a cheerful Giver and especially a Giver that can give to others that can NEVER repay...... God says when we've done something to the least, we have done it to Him....
God's ways are sooooo much higher than ours...
Over a couple of years now, I've actually been giving 10% into the Kingdom of God and I must say..... my financial circumstances are seriously a miracle of increase!!! I've gone from struggling to take care of myself to God taking care of me and WOW! I wouldn't want it any other way - I LOVE God taking care of me! He truly is AMAZING!!!
It completely TERRIFIES me now NOT to give! LOL!
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Let's look at a few places in the Bible and see where tithing come from. Let's look at the real church of God and see where it begin. In Acts 7:38 - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
So we see that the church of God started in the wilderness. The church didn't start in Rome brothers and sisters, we have to understand where thing come, because man have made changes and not God. But let's take a look a dig a little deeper, because Moses wrote something concerning tithes before the church started in wilderness. Let's go into Genesis 14: 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 and blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
So paying tithes to God was in Abraham time, before the church, and another thing we see, is that the bread and wine was before Jesus came in the flesh, but that's another lesson for another time. But Let's confirm this in Hebrews 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
But let's take a look and see who is the church and where or when the tithes came. For what purpose did the Lord choose the children of Israel? (Exodus 19: 1-6) Let's look at the 5th & 6th vs.; "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6th vs.) and ye shall be unto me a Kingdom of Priest, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Take a look at what Peter was telling the Jews, quoting Moses in 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
So Israel is the church of God, even to this day, because The lord have not changed his ways. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6) or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Another thing to understand in the scriptures in Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
So now let's see the Lord establish how tithes are to be given in Leviticus 27: 30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD. 31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Let's go into Proverb 3: 1 My son, forget not my law; But let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, And peace, shall they add to thee. 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; And lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: Fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, And marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance,
And with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, And thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
So we see that the church of God started in the wilderness. The church didn't start in Rome brothers and sisters, we have to understand where thing come, because man have made changes and not God. But let's take a look a dig a little deeper, because Moses wrote something concerning tithes before the church started in wilderness. Let's go into Genesis 14: 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 and blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
So paying tithes to God was in Abraham time, before the church, and another thing we see, is that the bread and wine was before Jesus came in the flesh, but that's another lesson for another time. But Let's confirm this in Hebrews 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
But let's take a look and see who is the church and where or when the tithes came. For what purpose did the Lord choose the children of Israel? (Exodus 19: 1-6) Let's look at the 5th & 6th vs.; "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6th vs.) and ye shall be unto me a Kingdom of Priest, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Take a look at what Peter was telling the Jews, quoting Moses in 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
So Israel is the church of God, even to this day, because The lord have not changed his ways. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6) or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Another thing to understand in the scriptures in Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
So now let's see the Lord establish how tithes are to be given in Leviticus 27: 30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD. 31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Let's go into Proverb 3: 1 My son, forget not my law; But let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, And peace, shall they add to thee. 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; And lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: Fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, And marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance,
And with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, And thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
We must not to build a doctrine on a translated English word. The English word church in Acts 7:38 is
ekklēsia ἐκκλησίᾳ congregation (assembly)
and I don't think that Stephen was trying to explain to the Sanhedrin that the Church of Jesus Christ had started under Moses. I think if we were to suggest that was what was in Stephen's mind we would be making a mistake. One has to put themselves in the seat of the hearers and he did not say the English word "Church". Once we reflect on the language he actually used we can understand that he said ekklesia which was a word they were familiar with using in context of speaking of the congregation in the wilderness. It was not an attempt to identify the Christian Church under Moses in some mysterious revelation, such that believers were like. "Oh... did you hear that?.... The Church started in the wilderness..." which is what you seem to be suggesting.
Tithing was a concept before the Law. But not sure where you were going with the "church in the wilderness" idea.
ekklēsia ἐκκλησίᾳ congregation (assembly)
and I don't think that Stephen was trying to explain to the Sanhedrin that the Church of Jesus Christ had started under Moses. I think if we were to suggest that was what was in Stephen's mind we would be making a mistake. One has to put themselves in the seat of the hearers and he did not say the English word "Church". Once we reflect on the language he actually used we can understand that he said ekklesia which was a word they were familiar with using in context of speaking of the congregation in the wilderness. It was not an attempt to identify the Christian Church under Moses in some mysterious revelation, such that believers were like. "Oh... did you hear that?.... The Church started in the wilderness..." which is what you seem to be suggesting.
Tithing was a concept before the Law. But not sure where you were going with the "church in the wilderness" idea.