Practice what you preach. I only treat people the way they treat others.
You have been quite rude yourself..
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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You have been quite rude yourself..
That depends on context.
Actually the elect (saved) from creation until the end of the earth has been all people (not jew or gentile)
But God made Israel a special people unto himself. And chose them out from amoung the nations to prove to the world that God is one God and the lord God of all.
He is not done fulfilling that promise. As paul said in romans, They (Israel) are enemies concerning the gospel (because they reject it in part) but beloeved because of the promise. Gods gifts are not revokable
Those who say God is done with Israel claim God revoked a gift he gave specifically to them. That is making God a liar.
I would put you in that category,
But thats beside the point. Lets stick to the word and stop attacking each other with accusatory words which mean nothing.
Thats why this topic gets so heated. and usually ends up in such a serious war between sides, people start to get banned for acting unlike christians. But acting like the world.
Again, you need to go to the NT passages where Paul expounds on them from a spiritual perspective. Did you miss the verses
I had included previously? Here they are again-- they are a continuation/further explanation of 9:21
[Rom 9:23-26 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
there is a word joined with the sacrifice that teaches us the right paths to walk
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
The other side of that is this
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 KJV
We want to believe Jesus died formoirnsins and rose for our justification but we want to accept the word of the gospel that’s how we’re changed
“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
1 Peter 1:23-25 KJV
we can’t avoid this word
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35 KJV
Or we will never be born again. It’s as important as his sacrifice because of this part
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
John 6:45 KJV
His word is what teaches us about forgiveness and repentance , remission of sins and eternal life, while his blood supplies remission his word teaches us and puts his spirit within us
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63 KJV
The niv says it this way
“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.”
John 6:63 NIV
if we believe he rose from the dead we also understand he is the eternal judge and has spoken the judgement and any who accept his word is passed through condemnation into life
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31 KJV
We can hear and believe the gospel now and receive judgement and live , or reject it and be judged by the same word later
Jew and gentile in the spiritual context means the saved and non-saved and does not pertain to the nationality of earthly people.
Regarding the earthly nation of Israel as being "special", God divorced them in the OT due to their fornication with other Gods, and
subject to His law, could not/cannot remarry them. That is how/why the gift is revoced. Please observe:
[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Deu 24:4 KJV] 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
As for Paul in Romans, the Jews are saved on the same basis as everyone else is: individually if they have been elected to it.
They are not saved because they are of the nation of Israel nor because of their linage.
God is finished with the Jews as physical Jews. They have no longer have any special standing because of their linages.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Nope. We can't just grab scripture and make it fit a new age religion interpretation.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Not true, read Romans 11. We are grafted in, we don't replace anyone.
Nope, God made an unconditional, everlasting covenant with Abraham. God said keep those promises and He will. Or God is a liar.
Yes, they will be saved the same way. And God will also keep his promises to Israel.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
I didn't say we replace anyone. I said the Jews in the spiritual sense consist of both Jews and non-Jews. They become spiritual the Jews. Those Jews not of spiritual Israel will suffer the same fate as any of the unsaved.
You realize the Bible references two different Israels, right? One physical, one spiritual. If you try to force the physical into
every reference of Israel it won't fit and will cause contradictions with other references to Israel. If you realize there are two,
the pieces will fit together much more precisely and easily
I assume you're referring to the verses of Genesis. Wherever Israel, or God's covenant with Israel is spoken of in terms of being everlasting, it is the spiritual Israel that is the object, not the nation of Israel. The geographical nation of Israel is to be destroyed so it cannot be everlasting. Please observe that if the heavens and earth pass away, then earthly Israel also passes away.
[Rev 3:12 KJV]
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, , coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
God has already fulfilled all of His promises to the nation of Israel. Please observe:
[1Ki 8:56 KJV] 56 Blessed [be] the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.
Sorry Bro,
No one can use another persons writting and change the meaning of what the original author meant. Paul was not talking of some spiritual; perspective, He was stating a fact.
God is me doing Israel in the way he wants, The OT shows over and over how Israel will fall away, Yet at the end they will repent. And in the end, All that God promised and prophesied will be true.
Your taking ot passages out of context to make a doctrine and not making a doctrine out of the OT passages.
Lol. You just made my point for me
Your right, In the salvation sense it has ALWAYS been jew or Gentile
But you reject the fact that thePromise made to Israel (an eternal promise) was not a salvic issue, it was an election of Gods plan to use this nation to prove to the world that God is the only God.
That promise still exists.
Proven by the fact in Lev 26 where God told them, If you disobey me, i will punish you. Up to and including destroying your high places. Allowing your enemy to enjoy your land and all it has to offer. And spreading you throughout the world.
But even then, if you repent, I WILL REMEMBER THE PROMISE I WILL REMEMBER THE LAND.
Paul mentions this in romans 11. The jews, who are blinded in part. And will one day ALL BE SAVED> are our ENEMIES concerning the gospel but BELOEVED concerning the PROMISE. For the GIFTS and CALLING of God are IRREVOCABLE….
K
kaylagrl
Guest
There is no such thing as "spiritual Israel." The promises God made to Israel He will keep. It involved a real place with real borders. You can look it up. That promise is real, it is to Israel and it is everlasting, just as EG has said. It's not spiritual it is a literal and unconditional promise that God made with Abraham. God will fulfill that promise, and if He doesn't keep that promise, no one has a hope of salvation.
All this can be easily refuted and disproven. There are NO verses that say that election is to salvation, and in EVERY verse that includes the purpose of the election mentioned, it about service.
Let's start with the most obvious election: the election of Jesus Christ.
I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:
Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).
1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”
Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over to be killed,and you disowned Him before Pilate, though he had decided to let Him go.
Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Acts 4:27 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed .
Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
Phil 2:7 - but made Himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.
Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant, who was appointed.
Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.
Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.
Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”
If election is to salvation, then none of these verses mean anything.
Then consider the nation of Israel, chosen of God. For salvation? No, but for service.
Then consider angels:
Angels were elected to service:
1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
God is the author of the Bible, not Paul. God used events in the OT (that He caused to occur in the OT) on the physical level as allegory for things spiritual that He would later reveal and clarify in the NT. The whole Bible is God's word as such and must be read as one integrated book, not as a series of individual books.
It is clear that God divorced the nation of Israel, It is also clear that by God's law He cannot remarry the nation of Israel. Therefore,
they are no longer His people and never will be. He tells us in the Bible:
[Hos 1:9 KJV] 9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
[Rom 9:23-26 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Deu 24:4 KJV] 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
You can deny and red x if you want to, but the Word is clear. God made an unconditional promise to the Jews and he will keep it.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
No, God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham.
In Genesis 13:14-15, God told Abraham, “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are … for all the land which you see I will give to you and your descendants forever.”
And Genesis 15:18 states, “On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates.’”
God said to Isaac, “Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father” (Genesis 26:3).
he title deed to the Promised Land was then passed to Jacob from Isaac. In Genesis 28:13, God said, “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.”
God made a blood covenant with Abraham and it passed on to his descendants. A blood covenant is unconditional and irrevocable. There are no conditions, God cannot divorce Himself from the Jews, He made a blood covenant with them.
Psalm 89:30-37. God says, “If his sons [Israel] forsake My law and do not walk in My judgments, if they break My statutes and do not keep My commandments, then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.”
“Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, nor allow My faithfulness to fail.” God is saying here that He will not break His covenant.
Amos writes concerning the restoration of Israel, “I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God” (Amos 9:14-15).
...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28–29, NASB).
Your right, God is the author of the Bible.
So when he made a claim in the OT. We listen to him. Not only one else
God made the nation of Israel a promise.
He also made the world a promise through abraham.
The promise of salvation is given to the world. No matter who you are or where you are. There are no jew, no free, no male or female. Free or slave, we are all one. Through the seed of abraham, As God said, In you SHALL ALL THE NATIONS BE BLESSED
That is different from his promise to the nation. Not through Esau, but through Jacob, For he chose a special nation. And as he said the older nation would serve the younger. Jacobs I have loved but esau I have hated (a hebrew term which means loved less)
The promise of salvation and the promise of the LAND was through the one seed. Not because of the righteousness of the fathers (A Claim Israel was making) But before they were born.
This is what Paul is arguing here. He is refuting the claim by Israel, who at this time is as Paul calls them the enemy of the gospel)
1. that they are saved because they are jewish or from Israel
2. That God choses them based on how righteous their fathers were
3. That God said they would destroy themselves (the lump becomes tainted)
4. and that God would bring in a nation of people (gentiles) who were not his, and make them his own.
That is what romans 9 - 11 is about, and so much more.
its not about God loving one baby before born and determining he will go to heaven, And hating another baby before he is born and condemning him to hell.