Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,841
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,841
rogerg said:
Disagree. We are saved solely by His mercy, and nothing we may, or may not have done. If we contribute anything to it, it can't be
by His mercy. Everything else flows from, by, that.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Click to expand...
Yep. By his mercy

When you offer to save a person who is hopeless and helpless. It is all of mercy.

They do not have to recieve your grace, they have the right to say no. But if they say yes. It is still of mercy and grace.

It is only of works if you do an act or deed which earns your salvation (such as baptism, church membership, being obedient to law or laws. etc etc etc.)

Saying yes to god is not a work of righteousness..
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,842
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,842
Everlasting-Grace said:
ts christ alone my friend.

The person who was drowning and totally helpless and unable to save himself did not earn his salvation because he had faith in the one who came to rescue him and said yes.

The one who saved him gets all the credit.
Click to expand...
So, according to your example (which I don't agree with - but for the sake of argument), the one who "had faith" actually had nothing to do with causing his salvation? Is that correct?
If the one who saves gets the credit, why do you think someone's supposed faith would cause salvation?
Again, I don't agree with your example
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,843
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,843
Everlasting-Grace said:
When you offer to save a person who is hopeless and helpless. It is all of mercy.

They do not have to recieve your grace, they have the right to say no. But if they say yes. It is still of mercy and grace.
Click to expand...
If they can say no, and then they don't receive it, it was not by His mercy. Mercy is given to those who don't want it or it's not mercy.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#2,844
#2,844
rogerg said:
Nope - you have the wrong world in view. God is referring to the world to come, not this current world. He does not love this world.
Please observe

[1Jo 2:15 KJV] 15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Click to expand...



What, to you, was the purpose of the cross?! If God already decided from before time who would be elected why did Christ go to the cross?

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick [the lost]: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners [the lost] to repentance

Why call for repentance if you cannot repent? What, is God mocking people?!

“The Lord … NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


So to say God hates the sinner is utterly false doctrine, it's the SIN that he hates. Which the Word clearly says that He is longsuffering, why, because it's NOT His will/wish that people should perish. So that makes the idea that God created people for hell a lie. This verse proves it.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#2,845
#2,845
John146 said:
But we all know that the whosoever is only going to be those God has elected....:)
Click to expand...

God knows all that we say and do. He knows our future. He knows who will be saved and who won't. I don't disagree with that. But to say only people that God chose will be saved, only the elected ones and everyone else cannot be saved, no the Word does not teach that.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,846
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,846
rogerg said:
So, according to your example (which I don't agree with - but for the sake of argument), the one who "had faith" actually had nothing to do with causing his salvation? Is that correct?
Click to expand...
What did he do except become bancrupt in spirit and call out for God to show mercy..

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that person earned his salvation?


If the one who saves gets the credit, why do you think someone's supposed faith would cause salvation?
Again, I don't agree with your example
Click to expand...
it does not CAUSE salvation. The cross and the offer of the gift CAUSED salvation.

Faith just ALLOWED the cause to take place.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,847
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,847
rogerg said:
If they can say no, and then they don't receive it, it was not by His mercy. Mercy is given to those who don't want it or it's not mercy.
Click to expand...
this is really going deep to try to refuse to see a truth.

If they say no, they get what we all deserve.. God offered them mercy, THEY chose to reject it.

Romans 1 would do you well to study
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,848
Nov 21, 2020
6,489
597
113
#2,848
kaylagrl said:
“And he (Jesus) is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2


“There is NOOOO respect of persons with God.” Romans 2:11

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALLLLLL men unto me.” John 12:32

“one died for ALL” – 2 Corinthians 5:14.

“he died for all” – 2 Corinthians 5:15.

God sent His only begotten Son to die for the sins of “the WHOLE world” – 1 John 2:2

Whosoever will...
Click to expand...
Quoting those verses doesnt change anything.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,849
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,849
Everlasting-Grace said:
Oh but its not. Because a few verses later. Jesus said it is the will of the father that everyone who sees and believes.
Click to expand...
No one can spiritually see or believe unless it is given to them

Everlasting-Grace said:
Everyone there saw Jesus, But as jesus said, some could not hear what he was saying, because they did not believe.
Click to expand...
again:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one can truly believe until belief is given to them when they become born-again

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Jhn 6:36 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Everlasting-Grace said:
Yep

That same world. he came to die for. So those in the world could be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.. We are all guilty. and God died for us all..
Click to expand...
Jesus did not die for this world. Had He, this world could not be destroyed - which it will be:
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,850
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,850
Everlasting-Grace said:
What did he do except become bancrupt in spirit and call out for God to show mercy..

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that person earned his salvation?
Click to expand...
I don't know what you're talking about. I never, ever said salvation is earned - just the opposite in fact. It can
only be given as a gift from God. Your reply doesn't make sense
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,852
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,852
kaylagrl said:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt.24

That is how I know.
Click to expand...
What happens to those who die without it, before it is preached prior to the end? Are you saying before they die, that everyone
ever born has heard the gospel? If not, what happened/happens to them
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#2,854
#2,854
rogerg said:
What happens to those who die without it, before it is preached prior to the end? Are you saying before they die, that everyone
ever born has heard the gospel? If not, what happened/happens to them
Click to expand...

I'm saying what the Word says. All creation points toward a God, and God promises that those who seek Him will find Him. The Bible says no one will have an excuse when they stand before God. Everyone will have the opportunity to know Him. Otherwise God is a liar and why would you believe a thing a liar says?
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,855
Jul 13, 2021
3,922
656
113
#2,855
kaylagrl said:
I'm saying what the Word says. All creation points toward a God, and God promises that those who seek Him will find Him. The Bible says no one will have an excuse when they stand before God. Everyone will have the opportunity to know Him. Otherwise God is a liar and why would you believe a thing a liar says?
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I'm asking you: according to your belief of salvation, what happens to those who do not seek
after Him because they don't know they should, or that they can't seek after Him? Some who believe as you - probably even yourself too- say election is unfair, so my question to you is, is what you believe unfair to those who fall into the above category? According to election, God is the one to choose who is to become saved. That sounds a lot, lot more fair to me, in fact, it is perfectly fair.
 
A

Avery

Guest
#2,856
#2,856
Everlasting-Grace said:
Saying yes to god is not a work of righteousness..
Click to expand...
What a very strange observation to state that saying yes to God is a work of righteousness. (I realize it is not you saying that)

rogerg said:
If they can say no, and then they don't receive it, it was not by His mercy. Mercy is given to those who don't want it or it's not mercy.
Click to expand...
The above quote is without comprehension of the word mercy. Mercy is given to those who accept it by faith. The view of this other poster seems to be that mercy is forced on you or it is not mercy. Going out on a limb here and sawing it off the tree while sitting behind the action of the saw is not an acceptable argument :unsure:
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,857
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,857
rogerg said:
No one can spiritually see or believe unless it is given to them
Click to expand...
thats not what romans 1 says


again:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Click to expand...
Why do you pull verses out of context?

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

See how the word belief is required..

No one can truly believe until belief is given to them when they become born-again

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Jhn 6:36 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.



Jesus did not die for this world. Had He, this world could not be destroyed - which it will be:
Click to expand...
john 3: 16 for god so loved the world. Not the elect

World in the greek is cosmos. Elect in the greek is eklektos.

So on no case (the english or the greek) did Jesus say he died just for the elect.[/QUOTE]
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,858
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,858
rogerg said:
I don't know what you're talking about. I never, ever said salvation is earned - just the opposite in fact. It can
only be given as a gift from God. Your reply doesn't make sense
Click to expand...
The tax collector called out for Gods grace.

I ASK AGAIN, WHAT DID HE DO TO EARN SALVATION.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#2,859
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#2,859
rogerg said:
You too. Do you understand what mercy means?
Click to expand...
God showed the tax collector mercy, because he asked for it.

do you know what mercy is?

You did not answer me about romans 1. Romans 1 says we DO know about God and about our condemnation.

God did not hide it from us, We hide it from ourselves..

Thats why we have no excuse.
 
A

Avery

Guest
#2,860
#2,860
Wanted to include this in my last post, but ran out of time. Gotta be fast here:)


So that seems to indicate that people are selected by whimsy and there is no difference between those chosen for heaven and those chosen for the other direction.

Following are some points I came across that indicate how that whimsy would play out:

He is accountable to nobody, and we must accept without question whatever he determined.

His purpose is "immutable" so there is nothing we can do to change God's mind about how he regards us.

His grace and love are "free", not bound by any law, so God does what he likes, bestowing his grace on whom he pleases regardless of what they think or say or do.

He loves some, and doesn't love others, and nobody has any business asking why.

So then the question should be asked if God is just, then how does that satisfy His fairness if there is no rhyme or reason to His choices in who is saved or not? But then, if you believe you are one of the chosen, do you just breath a sigh of relief and rejoice that you are included and sorry about the rest who are not chosen?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.