Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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I don't believe I ever said that I was worried. It's a fascinating subject, and I enjoy the speculation and discussion. But you've got to admit, being on the cusp of a possible WWIII where billions of people could die as prophesied through nuclear capabilities as we've never had before, and all of the other prophecies coming true as foretold in the end times... doesn't it make you just a little excited?
Okay I understand.
You said the second resurrection is only once and those are the damned.
If I may ask a question, if there is only one second resurrection of the damned after the 1,000 years (per your interpretation of Revelation 20:5 here) then why is it also that after 1,000 years there is a worldwide army, presumably of unbelievers, yet to be destroyed with fire from heaven as shown in Revelation 20:7-8?
What I am plainly asking is that how is the resurrection of the damned immediately after the 1,000 years if all of the damned aren't dead yet to be resurrected? Could that introduce the possibility of two groups for the second resurrection?
I fully recognize we aren't working with precise timelines of dates and times. The ambiguity of the scriptures allows for this sort of interpretation.
You said the second resurrection is only once and those are the damned.
If I may ask a question, if there is only one second resurrection of the damned after the 1,000 years (per your interpretation of Revelation 20:5 here) then why is it also that after 1,000 years there is a worldwide army, presumably of unbelievers, yet to be destroyed with fire from heaven as shown in Revelation 20:7-8?
What I am plainly asking is that how is the resurrection of the damned immediately after the 1,000 years if all of the damned aren't dead yet to be resurrected? Could that introduce the possibility of two groups for the second resurrection?
I fully recognize we aren't working with precise timelines of dates and times. The ambiguity of the scriptures allows for this sort of interpretation.
Dispensational premillennialist and dual covenant theology are just fancy terms to label what someone believes so that it's easier to identify exactly what they believe without hashing out a novel of scripture. Just makes it easier to get right into the meat and potatoes of the scripture and it would effect the approach I take..
Let me just begin by answering your first question:
Do we go up and then come right back down to reign with Christ?
Yes and no.
I don't really know what you have heard, but before I go off on a tangent, do you agree that this is a post-tribulation rapture?
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This says that the elect are gathered from the Earth to Heaven, after that tribulation? If you see the post-tribulation rapture here then I don't need to start dividing the word intensely. If you would like, you may cross reference the bits about the stars of heaven falling, powers of the heavens being shaken in Mark 13 and Matthew 24, with those signs accompanying the Day of the Lord in Isaiah 13 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6.
Let me just begin by answering your first question:
Do we go up and then come right back down to reign with Christ?
Yes and no.
I don't really know what you have heard, but before I go off on a tangent, do you agree that this is a post-tribulation rapture?
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This says that the elect are gathered from the Earth to Heaven, after that tribulation? If you see the post-tribulation rapture here then I don't need to start dividing the word intensely. If you would like, you may cross reference the bits about the stars of heaven falling, powers of the heavens being shaken in Mark 13 and Matthew 24, with those signs accompanying the Day of the Lord in Isaiah 13 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6.
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L
Hi, Roughsoul1991.
No offense (you seem like a nice guy), but what you've stated here is patently false, and here is why.
There is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between someone being raised from the dead in their physical body, only to die again later (as in the case of OT resurrections, Lazarus, the saints who arose in Matthew 27:51-52, etc., etc.), and someone being resurrected unto eternal life in a glorified body (like in I Thessalonians 4:16).
In these examples that you gave, the only example which truly matches up with "the first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation chapter 20 is the example from I Thessalonians 4:16.
In relation to this "first resurrection", we read:
Revelation chapter 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This "first resurrection" clearly transpires at the introduction of Christ's Millennial or 1000-year reign here on earth. With such being the case, none of those other "resurrections" truly apply. In fact, those who were "resurrected" in the other ways that you described won't be "resurrected" in this manner in which they'll receive their glorified bodies until Christ's Millennial Reign begins.
Seeing how you mentioned what Paul said to the church at Thessalonika in relation to this "first resurrection", let's also consider what he said to the saints at Corinth in relation to the same.
We read:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
As we just read, Christ has "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (vs. 20) or the first to rise from the dead in a glorified body unto eternal life. Again, none of the OT saints, nor Lazarus, nor anybody else who was resurrected from the dead have attained to this sort of resurrection yet.
Furthermore, Paul told us the exact order of this type of resurrection, and it is "Christ the firstfruits", and "afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING".
Again, no one will be resurrected unto eternal life in a glorified body until Jesus Christ's SECOND coming...not second and third comings.
He's only coming twice:
Hebrews chapter 9
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Something for you to hopefully prayerfully ponder before the Lord.
No offense (you seem like a nice guy), but what you've stated here is patently false, and here is why.
There is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between someone being raised from the dead in their physical body, only to die again later (as in the case of OT resurrections, Lazarus, the saints who arose in Matthew 27:51-52, etc., etc.), and someone being resurrected unto eternal life in a glorified body (like in I Thessalonians 4:16).
In these examples that you gave, the only example which truly matches up with "the first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation chapter 20 is the example from I Thessalonians 4:16.
In relation to this "first resurrection", we read:
Revelation chapter 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This "first resurrection" clearly transpires at the introduction of Christ's Millennial or 1000-year reign here on earth. With such being the case, none of those other "resurrections" truly apply. In fact, those who were "resurrected" in the other ways that you described won't be "resurrected" in this manner in which they'll receive their glorified bodies until Christ's Millennial Reign begins.
Seeing how you mentioned what Paul said to the church at Thessalonika in relation to this "first resurrection", let's also consider what he said to the saints at Corinth in relation to the same.
We read:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
As we just read, Christ has "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (vs. 20) or the first to rise from the dead in a glorified body unto eternal life. Again, none of the OT saints, nor Lazarus, nor anybody else who was resurrected from the dead have attained to this sort of resurrection yet.
Furthermore, Paul told us the exact order of this type of resurrection, and it is "Christ the firstfruits", and "afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING".
Again, no one will be resurrected unto eternal life in a glorified body until Jesus Christ's SECOND coming...not second and third comings.
He's only coming twice:
Hebrews chapter 9
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Something for you to hopefully prayerfully ponder before the Lord.
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In the 1000 year reign, scripture to me suggests people will still resist the Lordship of Christ. As for the reason for Satan to be released once more to gather these people in one final attempt to overthrow Jesus.
Satan will be released to deceive the people so much so they will be like the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:7-10
English Standard Version
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Now notice right after the great army is destroyed we then see the giving up the dead and they are judged. None will be found in the book of life.
Revelation 20:11-14
English Standard Version
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Satan will be released to deceive the people so much so they will be like the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:7-10
English Standard Version
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Now notice right after the great army is destroyed we then see the giving up the dead and they are judged. None will be found in the book of life.
Revelation 20:11-14
English Standard Version
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
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Speaking of imagination lol. Anyways do you have scripture to show this?
I disagree because the physical resurrections was exactly that, only physical.
Jesus literally appeared, disappeared, had some miraculous look that took Mary and the two disciples time to figure out if It was Jesus, and yet he was also very much a physical body that Thomas could feel.
I disagree because the physical resurrections was exactly that, only physical.
Jesus literally appeared, disappeared, had some miraculous look that took Mary and the two disciples time to figure out if It was Jesus, and yet he was also very much a physical body that Thomas could feel.
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