Doctrine of Unconditional Election

FreeGrace2 · Feb 17, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

It is really amazing to see how much hostility you have for Rom 10:10. Why is that?

All spiritual gifts are given to those who are ALREADY saved. So you can quit the claim that God gives faith to save people.

Grandpa said:

Why do you call Rom 10:10 MY OWN proof. It's the Bible's proof, actually. But you didn't answer my questiona about your hostility towards that verse. Why?

[/QUOTE]1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/QUOTE]
There are a multitude of unbelievers who can explain the gospel message better than some believers! I've read their articles in magazine, and they don't believe the gospel. So you can quit trying to use this verse to claim that unbelievers can't understand the gospel. Of course they can.

It can't understand the "deep things of God" (1 Cor 2:10). But it CAN understand the gospel and believe it.

No one "wills their faith". That's just silly.

That is called the new birth, being born again, or regeneration.

And Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that salvation and regeneration are THROUGH FAITH. So your premise is quite flawed.

Prove it from the Bible.

Just like Ephesians 2:8 states. Just like Romans 10:10 and Ezekiel 36:26 show. In perfect harmony with 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is amazing to see the Truth of Scripture when the whole bible is in harmony.[/QUOTE]

John146 · Feb 17, 2022

Grandpa said:

26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

oyster67 · Feb 18, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Nope. Never had that kind of cleavage.

rogerg · Feb 19, 2022

I'm going to refute your claims once again using the Bible. I know that you will not understand because you
have never been able to, even to the slightest degree, nevertheless, I am doing this for those who may read and be tempted to think that you are correct. Also, I'm not going to engage in multiple iterations of debate with you on this - we've been through that many times before.

FreeGrace2 said:

So, you agree that someone must be first be saved in order to have true faith? Our faith comes from being born-again; being born again from being saved; being saved from the faith of Christ.

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

How much clearer could those verses be? It is by the faith of Christ

the following is God's assessment of the heart of the natural man -- man who has not yet been born again. As God has so informed, it is impossible for natural man of himself to seek God, change his own heart, or to believe. I've posted these verses before, how is it that you don't understand them? For man to believe they must first be born-again which cannot be given to oneself.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

FreeGrace2 said:

There are a multitude of unbelievers who can explain the gospel message better than some believers! I've read their articles in magazine, and they don't believe the gospel. So you can quit trying to use this verse to claim that unbelievers can't understand the gospel. Of course they can.[/QUOTE]

Wait... you just said that they are unbelievers of the gospel, and yet you say we should assume they've found truth? I'm sure they've been able to drill to the core of it and understand things spiritual in a way that true believers would be able to (sarcasm off). Maybe you should start looking for another source of truth instead of to them.
What part of that Cor 2:14 needs explanation? Its meaning is clear. You are trying to undermine the verse as written, and consequently, from the Bible. By that, you do violence to the Gospel. The verse tells us that it is impossible for natural man to understand things spiritual from the heart... and so it is.

FreeGrace2 said:

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The faith of Eph 2:8 ultimately comes from the FAITH of CHRIST. How could our faith, if of ourselves, earn salvation? It didn't and it can't, so it is your premise that is "quite flawed". Your problem is that you are unable to correctly perceive the biblical doctrine of faith.
Gal 2:20 tells us that Paul lives not by his faith but "BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD".

FreeGrace2 said:

Nope, once again, you are totally wrong. The "deep things of God" is the Gospel and is revealed to His Elect by His Spirit. If the Spirit is He who reveals, then we must first have been given the Spirit

[1Co 2:10 KJV] 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

FreeGrace2 said:

Proving it here. The faith of Eph 2:8 is ultimately from/by CHRIST'S faith. If Eph 2:8 means we are saved by grace, how then could it be through faith we've manufactured? If it were from that, then it couldn't be by grace! Your interpretation places grace and faith into conflict with each other, instead of them mutually supporting and enhancing each other. I'll post (some) of the verses again for you:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

FreeGrace2 · Mar 22, 2022

Somehow, I missed this post to me:

rogerg said:

I always ignore snarky snippy retorts. They are immaterial.

No, I don't agree with that. Salvation is on the basis of true faith. I believe what Eph 2:8 says.

No, our faith comes from our heart. Rom 10:10 says so. When a person believes, God gives them new birth.

Salvation begins with the faithfulness of Christ, obviously.

Wrong, right, and wrong.

As to the first wrong: Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

So, what did God DO so that "they would seek Him"?
v.26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

iow, God placed every person WHEN and WHERE He did "so that they would seek Him". Not very calvinistic.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Another calvinistic crushing verse. This verse PLAINLY says that God rewards those who "earnestly seek Him". So much for your "unable to seek" stuff.

As to the only right one, correct; man cannot change his own heart. God does that which we call regeneration or the new birth. And that comes from our faith in Christ.

As to the second wrong, of course man can believe. Rom 10:10 tells us where man believes from. And thee are NO verses that state that God causes a person to believe or 'have faith'.

I fully do understand them, and it is YOUR failed interpretation of them that I reject. And I do understand your position.

you have NO verses that say this. Zero. Zilch.

I'm going to prove to you from Scripture that both salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Eph 2:5 - 5 made us alive (regenerated) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The bolded phrases at the beginning and end of this verse are being equated. iow, to be regenerated is to be saved. You can't have one without the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The black bolded phrase is the exact same words as the end of v.5.
The red words is the MEANS by which a person is regenerated and saved.

So, both salvation and regeneration are by faith. Faith first, which results in God giving us a new birth and salvation.

This verse does NOT say that man cannot believe until he is regenerated.

Are you aware that Paul quoted from 6 OT passages to give examples of HOW all men are under sin? Here is the context that you left out:

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

v.11 is a direct quote from Psa 14:1-3 and the subject is atheists. Of course they don't seek God. But Heb 11:6 recognizes that God rewards those who DO seek Him.

v.12,17,18 are quotes that show HOW all men are "under the power of sin" (v.9). Context always matters.

Ran out of space. To be continued...

rogerg · Mar 23, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Whose faith do you think is being referenced?

FreeGrace2 said:

It is impossible for your assessment to be correct. This is what God tells us about the natural heart of natural man. It is impossible for his heart to give unto itself faith:

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:10-12, 17 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:

FreeGrace2 said:

Obviously? What do you mean by obviously?

FreeGrace2 said:

Wrong. And no one of their own volition would, did, or could seek Him. What do you think "there is none that seeketh after God" mean? It means that there are NONE who seek after God:

[Rom 3:10-12, 17 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:

FreeGrace2 said:

Those who come to true faith do so only because they have been given the seed of Christ and with it, His faith reckoned unto them:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

FreeGrace2 said:

To have faith, to understand, the heart must have first been changed. Read Rom 3:11 again closely.

FreeGrace2 said:

Really? Look at Gal 2:16 again and this one too:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

FreeGrace2 said:

Here:
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

FreeGrace2 said:

You haven't proven anything. Verse 4 says it is God who saves. The grace is by God's grace and therefore it is by nothing that we may do.

The faith of verse 2:8 is CHRIST'S faith not our faith. Otherwise, it couldn't be by grace, nor could it be the gift of God.

[Eph 2:4, 11 KJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[Eph 2:5, 11 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Saved by God's mercy, not by our faith.

FreeGrace2 said:

Rom 3:11 says that none will seek Him, so it MUST be that NONE SEEK HIM. Verse 11 says NONE. NONE means NONE- everyone is and remains an unbeliever until saved.
In order to seek Him one must first be given faith, but it is ONLY the faith of Christ pleases/d the Father. Our faith comes as a result of His faith which is given unto those for whom it was intended.

What do you think these verses mean?

[Heb 10:14, 16-17 KJV]
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ...
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 23, 2022

rogerg said:

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭

“For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith without works isn’t a good path

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭

at some point faith leads to accepting the right works

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

…who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭

we shouldn’t think there are no works involved otherwise it causes us to reject the teachings that bring us to repentance and obedience , equally we shouldn’t think we can do anything apart from Christ and what he said to do because we believe

FreeGrace2 · Mar 23, 2022

Continued...

Are you allergic to context or something? Seems so. So let's look at some context for v.14.
v.6 - We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. iow, Paul was addressing mature believers in this chapter

v.10 - these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

This verse refers NOT to the gospel message, but the deeper doctrines of the Christian faith. Doctrines that unbelievers cannot understand.

But, regarding the gospel, there is NO verse that says that unbelievers cannot understand the gospel. In fact, Titus 2:11 proves that the gospel IS understood by unbelievers.

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

So, God's grace offers salvation to everyone. That would be a stupid claim IF unbelievers cannot believe the gospel.

It is NOT a stupid claim and man CAN believe the gospel.

Believing the gospel is a matter of trust.

I SAID:
"There are a multitude of unbelievers who can explain the gospel message better than some believers! I've read their articles in magazine, and they don't believe the gospel. So you can quit trying to use this verse to claim that unbelievers can't understand the gospel. Of course they can."

How in the world do you come up with your misguided conclusions?? No, I NEVER said we should assume anything. Read my quote again. I said unbelievers can explain the gospel better than many believers, even though they do NOT BELIEVE it.

Now, include v.5, which equates regeneration and salvation, and you have the proof that both salvation and regeneration are on the basis of faith. Faith precedes both.

Why did you quote this verse? What's your point about it?

Yes, but "our faith" is what we believe. Which comes from our heart.

Your error here is to say "earn salvation". The Bible says that salvation is a gift. Are you aware that a gift, by definition is NOT EARNED??

Why in the world do you think our faith earns anything? Of course it doesn't. In fact, there is NOTHING man can to to earn salvation.

It is a gift, given by grace. Remember Eph 2:8? By grace we are saved through faith.

No, it is your flawed understanding of what I post that is quite flawed.

[QUOE]Your problem is that you are unable to correctly perceive the biblical doctrine of faith.[/QUOTE]
Rather, it is your flawed view of salvation being earned that is your problem. And you fail to understand grace.

You can repeat yourself all you want. When a person believes from their heart on Christ, they have placed their faith in Him. That is the basis of salvation.

How else can you explain Paul's answer to the jailer's question?

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

If your position is correct, then Paul's answer cannot be correct.

It's really sad to see the words you come up with. What do you mean by "manufacturing faith"? Who does that?

Do you "manufacture" your own thoughts? If not, who does? Isn't trusting in someone or something thinking? do you manufacture trust in someone or something?

Do you see how stupid this all sounds?

Since I outright REJECT your nonsense about thoughts being "manufactured", you can rest assured that salvation is absolutely by grace.

No, I've just corrected your mangled misunderstanding of my view, because of your own flawed ideas about thoughts being manufactured.

None of these verses supports your idea that God causes faith. Try again.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 23, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
No, our faith comes from our heart. Rom 10:10 says so. When a person believes, God gives them new birth.

rogerg said:

I believe Rom 10:10. It is a clear statement.

What kind of weird word salad is: "for his heart to give unto itself faith"?? What are you talking about?

The heart of man is his consciousness. All thinking, which includes believing, comes from that consciousness.

OK, so? Man still believes from the heart. The Bible says so.

I already addressed this passage.

FreeGrace2 said:
Salvation begins with the faithfulness of Christ, obviously.

I thought I was agreeing with you. Apparently not.

Yet, you have NO verse that says this.

No, that verse does NOT say what you seem to presume.

Why don't you actually read what I post. I never said we are saved by our faith. We are saved by grace, through faith.

iow, God saves those who believe.

Oh, wait, unlike yourself, I do have a verse that actually says what I post.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So much for your presumptions.

Rom 3:11-18 are 6 quotes from the OT that Paul used to demonstrate in the various ways "all men" sin. And 3:11 comes from Psa 14:1-3, which is about atheists. Of course atheists will not seek God. That's a no-brainer.

You need to STOP saying this unless you have a verse that actually says that.

rogerg · Mar 23, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

No, it isn't a good path, but neither on our part is it that which brings salvation.

The works the Bible speaks of are the works of Christ. That is why we are informed in the book of James of the following:

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Christ is the "man" of verse 18, and the only one to have ever perfectly achieved God's requirement of both faith AND works.
Christ was perfectly faithful to the Father through His accomplishing of the command given to Him of the Father.
In verse 18, we are informed that should we trust/believe in faith as of being from/by ourselves unto salvation, then it must
also have perfect works accompanying it too - which we would be able to never achieve. Otherwise, faith, being alone, would be dead, and being a dead faith, cannot save. So, for those who trust in their faith to have saved them, they trust in a faith which is dead.

Pilgrimshope said:

definitely. but the discussion was of salvation.

Pilgrimshope said:

Not sure exactly what you mean by no works involved? Regarding salvation, only Christ's work matters. Our works are
as a by-product of salvation, which come from His works, not ours. Our repentance is a repentance from dead works
and is a gift from God that accompanies salvation. Please read the following:

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Pilgrimshope · Mar 23, 2022

rogerg said:

“The works the Bible speaks of are the works of Christ. That is why we are informed in the book of James of the following:

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Christ is the "man" of verse 18, and the only one to have ever perfectly achieved God's requirement of both faith AND works.”

Boy , you really try to explain away what’s there huh ? Look at what it actually says without hacking it up

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-24, 26‬ ‭

see how I don’t need to explain away or hack it up ? It just says what it says notice he had been saying this beforehand

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve noticed the idea of “ faith means never having to do what God said to do and be saved “ is rather prevalent though. In reality James is just preaching what Jesus taught “ be doers and nOt bearers only deceiving yourselves “

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith doesn’t mean we are supposed to reject what Jesus said to do lol but your welcome to think that and avoid what’s really there . One thing though you should at the least consider this it’s written by Paul who I’m sure you accept because most with that thinking do

You should t get offended when someone mentions these things

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬

but as Paul writes there it’s a faithful saying worthy of acceptation , of your able to accept when people talk about doing good ot will
Change your mind about faith actually
Leading into the worls Christ told
Us to do, rather than seeing faith as “ I have faith so I don’t need to do anything He said “

Faith is meant to teach us to obey God not reject what he said and call
It faith.

everything Paul wrote was to bring Christians into the good works taught by Jesus.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( that’s true )

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” ( so is that )
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s crazy how the new age grace alone doctrine makes some unable to hear what’s really there regarding faith .

“For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why was he concerned with thier deeds I wonder ?

He was trying to bring them to repentance and save the from this

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was trying to bring them to repentance and obedience because he cares for their souls . before you reject these scriptures consider them

rogerg · Mar 23, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Don't think that I'll reply to every verse you've posted but hopefully this might address at least some of them. If I've missed any important ones, let me know

the "hearing" or "to hear" is spiritual hearing not physical hearing; seeing is spiritual sight not physical sight. The ability to hear and see spiritually must be given, and received as a gift from God.

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV] 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Act 28:26 KJV] 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

[Mat 13:15-
16 KJV] 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 23, 2022

rogerg said:

Don't think that I'll reply to every verse you've posted but hopefully this might address at least some of them. If I've missed any important ones, let me know

the "hearing" or "to hear" is spiritual hearing not physical hearing; seeing is spiritual sight not physical sight. The ability to hear and see spiritually must be given, and received as a gift from God.

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV] 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Act 28:26 KJV] 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

[Mat 13:15-
16 KJV] 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

yeah I wouldnt expect you to read or reply to them honestly…… anyways have a good afternoon or evening

rogerg · Mar 23, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

I think it is that you just don't understand what is being said. You assume the faith spoken of was from/by the person. I say
it originated from Christ's faith, which resulted in their faith. The reason you don't understand is that you don't follow
the directions the Bible has provided for its own interpretation. If you don't follow the rules, you won't get to the right place

from your reply, I assume that you just don't believe that Christ actually is the Saviour including all that His salvation has provided

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 23, 2022

rogerg said:

I think it is that you just don't understand what is being said. You assume the faith spoken of was from/by the person. I say
it originated from Christ's faith, which resulted in their faith. The reason you don't understand is that you don't follow
the directions the Bible has provided for its own interpretation. If you don't follow the rules, you won't get to the right place

from your reply, I assume that you just don't believe that Christ actually is the Saviour including all that His salvation has provided

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

ok sounds good

brightfame52 · Mar 24, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭

“For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith without works isn’t a good path

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭

at some point faith leads to accepting the right works

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

…who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭

we shouldn’t think there are no works involved otherwise it causes us to reject the teachings that bring us to repentance and obedience , equally we shouldn’t think we can do anything apart from Christ and what he said to do because we believe

Mans good works have no bearing on unconditional election which took place before the foundation of the world. It took place before the elect person was born Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Pilgrimshope · Mar 24, 2022

brightfame52 said:

yeah because there’s no such thing as unconditional Election , Gods elect accept the things God has said that is their condition. The elect are instructed like this

“But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:8-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and they are warned plainly and repetitively like this

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The difference is some are deceived and deceive others into rejecting the truth , and others accept the truth . God has plainly stated these things to comfort , warn and edify people in faith and bring them to repentance and life and whoever accepts and believes them show themselves to be the elect. And it transfers into thier lives and how they live

we can’t say we’re born again and then reject the new life we’re taught to love after we have to convert to the truth of God and get out of the deception that is a repeat of Eden

“ you don’t really need to believe and do what God said , you won’t die because you have faith which means ignore what God said and you’ll be saved anyways “ it’s just a parrot of the deception in Eden God has set the terms here

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyone who rejects his terms are going to be very disappointed those who hear and believe as they are able are going to have thier faith rewarded. Faith doesn’t mean “ now I don’t need to believe what God said and keep it” it’s quite the opposite

we don’t have to know everything he said but we need to hear what he said and believe those things not people telling us to “ ignore what he said and that’s how to be saved “

brightfame52 · Mar 25, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

yeah because there’s no such thing as unconditional Election , Gods elect accept the things God has said that is their condition. The elect are instructed like this

“But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:8-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and they are warned plainly and repetitively like this

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The difference is some are deceived and deceive others into rejecting the truth , and others accept the truth . God has plainly stated these things to comfort , warn and edify people in faith and bring them to repentance and life and whoever accepts and believes them show themselves to be the elect. And it transfers into thier lives and how they live

we can’t say we’re born again and then reject the new life we’re taught to love after we have to convert to the truth of God and get out of the deception that is a repeat of Eden

“ you don’t really need to believe and do what God said , you won’t die because you have faith which means ignore what God said and you’ll be saved anyways “ it’s just a parrot of the deception in Eden God has set the terms here

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyone who rejects his terms are going to be very disappointed those who hear and believe as they are able are going to have thier faith rewarded. Faith doesn’t mean “ now I don’t need to believe what God said and keep it” it’s quite the opposite

we don’t have to know everything he said but we need to hear what he said and believe those things not people telling us to “ ignore what he said and that’s how to be saved “

When God chose His elect in Christ before the foundation, they werent even born to have done anything, so it was unconditional.

UnnamedConcerned · Mar 27, 2022

This is really the problem with non reformed theology. One person seems to be completely hung up on works, the next on grace. The next can't accept the clear teachings of unconditional election. Do reformed folks get things wrong? Absolutely. Off the top of my head, they would be the general idea that there's no future for Israel. John Macarthur gets this right. The other would be Hebrews 6. which many seem to interpret by doctrine, except that can't be done, because reformed doctrine doesn't actually allow for the interpretation that MANY hold.

That said, the Bible clearly teaches unconditional election. I need not point any further than Romans 9 concerning Jacob and Esau. Romans 8 and 1 Peter 1 also teach it when you understand what the word foreknew means (those God intimately loved before the beginning of time) Acts 13:48 also teaches this clearly. That verse can be interpreted differently, but you have to assume irregular use of Greek to arrive at that interpretation. The honest, plain reading of that verse confirms election. (I'm not an expert in Greek, but having looked into this before, that's what I learned about it).
It (unconditional election) tends to be a misunderstood term, but it's misunderstood in a way that sorta leads to a faith + works salvation. Unconditional means that you did nothing to deserve God electing you. NOT that there are those who are elect despite not leaving their life of sin. Problem is, we're all sinners, and will continue to "live in sin" (not as that term is typically understood) until we die. If you make leaving sin a condition of salvation, you, by definition, would then merit your salvation. Those that are saved will leave their life of sin, in that order. That is not to say it's effort free, but it's done in faith, not as a work.
A person can get far too wrapped up in works, and you, almost by definition, become a fruit inspector. Hard to love if you're always critical of everyone's works. For me, to make it all about works would just drive me crazy. I know I have faith, and the fruit is there, it's just small fruit.

Concerning the whole where faith begins argument, if you want to believe that, it doesn't seem you're going to be convinced otherwise. John 1 would say otherwise. "Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
If it's true that you have faith and are then born again, it would be a human decision to be born again. You chose, by having faith, to be born again, and we know that can't be the case, because it would be of human decision. Acts 13:48 would also confirm this a bit. Those that are appointed to eternal life believe. They don't believe, and are then appointed to eternal life.

rogerg · Mar 27, 2022

UnnamedConcerned said:

"would be the general idea that there's no future for Israel"

Okay, so just to understand, are you saying there is one salvation for the nation of Israel and another for everyone else, or do I misunderstand you?

If you believe there are two, then please define nation of Israel, and explain what you believe these verses mean?

[Rom 9:25 KJV]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[2Co 6:16 KJV]
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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