Are we in the end times ?

[TheDivineWatermark]

WHAT??????? This would be laughable it it weren't so sincere. What you "wrote" made absolutely no sense. Did you write that or did you merely copy and paste? Their is NO logic to any of it. But you seem intent on twisting and manipulating ANY time indicator you see so that it fits your false preconceived ideas of some unsupportable future-to-us events.

What you wrote was:

"The words used in Revelation 1:1 are the same as we find in Acts 25:4 In that verse, the force of the NEARNESS and SOONNESS is enhanced by the presence of MELLO (about to) - μελλειν εν ταχει."

To which I pointed out that:

--Verse 1 has the words "en tachei " (in quickness)... regarding the "which God gave unto Him [unto Jesus] TO SHOW UNTO" part.

IOW, there's no word "mello / mellei" connected with this phrase / verse grammatically (in v.1), as it is in your Acts 25:4 verse.

Besides that, it is true that "mello / mellei" can legitimately be translated "SURE [to]" ("CERTAIN [to]"), speaking to "intent," especially when referring to matters being / having been "prophesied" to occur (are "SURE to" / "CERTAIN to" take place... because prophesied to do so... )


In Acts 25:4, it speaks to the guy's "intent" ...

Literal Emphasis Translation
Therefore Festus answered, Paul is to be kept in Caesarea, and he himself is about to [mello / intends to / sure to - present infinitive] set out in quickness.

Berean Literal Bible
So indeed Festus answered that Paul is to be kept in Caesarea, and he himself is about to [mello / intends to / sure to - present infinitive] set out in quickness.

You will never understand God's Word with this agenda-driven approach.

And you yourself don't have an "agenda"?? (a "Preterist" one...

... one which disregards the SEQUENCE issues that the Olivet Discourse shows, and which I've pointed out... that "the beginning of birth pangs" must take place AFTER the events surrounding 70ad, including the 70ad-aspect of "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... which is the exact OPPOSITE of what Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 shows to occur at the "GREAT" trumpet [distinct sound], which says, "and ye shall be gathered together ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"; Not forgetting what Romans 9:26 says OF THEM [not v.25 re: the Gentiles] "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'Ye are NOT MY PEOPLE'; there SHALL they be called the children of the living God" [Hos1:10-11])

The words say what they say. Do you engage in this much exegetical contortionism and gymnastics regarding other topics? What a hodgepodge your doctrine must be.

Verse 19c - "and the things which mellei [are SURE to] take place AFTER THESE"... is not the same things that v.19a and v.19b speak of, which were ALSO [to be] "WRITTEN" by John--and ALL that was "WRITTEN" by John... all aspects of this Book, not just the "mellei" aspects "AFTER THESE," are to be "kept [guarded]" per vv.2-3's Subject--THAT is the difference between the grammar HERE in Rev1:1, 1:3, 1:19a,b,c and the grammar in Acts 25:4 (which are DISTINCT... are spelled out uniquely and are not comparable in the way you suggest. THAT is what seems to me to be [what you call] "exegetical contortionism" and an "agenda-driven approach" closely resembling and resulting in what I see as a severe "[Sam] STORMism"

 

[Beckie]

What are the "end times"?

A phrase used to sell books.

I am thinking maybe you have me confused with some one else ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another sign of the End Times....many don't take into account....The Jews rejected Jesus!!
What does this mean?
It means they rejected him, they didn't accept him as their Messiah. They do not call him Lord, as in...All who call upon the name of the Lord Shall be saved.
It means..The Jewish nation...as a whole....are still waiting for their Messiah!!
Who will be their Messiah??
I believe it will be the beast we are warned of in Revelation.

Consider:

that MANY of the Jews will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN that future, specific, LIMITED time-period (commonly called the [7-yr] Tribulation period)... and it will be these of TRUE faith in their TRUE Messiah (Jesus Christ) who will be GRAVELY PERSECUTED by those who follow the "beast" instead... as the "faithful remnant" of Israel [/Jews] will be carrying forth (at that time) the "INVITATION" TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (which will commence upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19); That "INVITATION" being what is spoken of in Matt24:14 / 26:13 [and other passages in the gospels, such as Matt24:45-46 parallel Lk12:42-43,(35,36-37,38,40); as well as being the "the least of these My brethren" of Matt25:40,45 who are NOT the ones BEING judged/separated in this passage], and the "having been invited" of Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], etc etc







[a major impetus that helps those "remnant of Israel [/Jews]" turn in true faith to their Messiah (Jesus Christ)... a major impetus will be the occurrence of "our Rapture"... AFTER which, many of Israel will be coming to faith in Christ... but many also will NOT and will instead embrace "the beast" ("God shall send TO THEM [certain ones, not 100% of the ppl] strong delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." during / in / within that future, specific, LIMITED time-period (which time-period FOLLOWS "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"); Note that EVERYTHING in Matt24:4 and following takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture [ IN THE AIR]"... and Paul discloses the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" people WILL BE coming to "IN THAT DAY / THE DAY OF THE LORD" earthly-located TIME-PERIOD leading UP TO Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

LetGodBeTrue said:
What are the "end times"?

A phrase used to sell books.

I am thinking maybe you have me confused with some one else ?

Consider this phrase:

Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


[see also Dan11:35, 11:40 "the time of the end"... which v.35 is where many see a break in the passage to that of the Subject commencing in v.36 (as I do)... meaning, the break between "near-future" (re: A4E) and that of "far-future" events ("the king shall do according to his will: and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods"... compare this with 2Th2:4a,9a (distinct from v.4b at a certain point in his overall doings), which is what would be the "far-future" events (in CONTRAST to the near-future A4E parts of Dan11 which took place around 165bc, or thereabouts)]

 

[Beckie]

Consider this phrase:

Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


[see also Dan11:35, 11:40 "the time of the end"... which v.35 is where many see a break in the passage to that of the Subject commencing in v.36 (as I do)... meaning, the break between "near-future" (re: A4E) and that of "far-future" events ("the king shall do according to his will: and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods"... compare this with 2Th2:4a,9a (distinct from v.4b at a certain point in his overall doings), which is what would be the "far-future" events (in CONTRAST to the near-future A4E parts of Dan11 which took place around 165bc, or thereabouts)]

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

How long was the ministry of Jesus as He walked the earth ?

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

When did the daily sacrifice stop ?

 

[shittim]

The last days began when Jesus paid the full price on the cross for us.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The last days began when Jesus paid the full price on the cross for us.

Yep... there are THREE of those... "days" ("in THESE last days" Heb1:2)



Consider what I put in my Post #26 (different thread):

-- https://christianchat.com/threads/looking-for-jesus.203611/post-4804943


[and along with that thought (at link post), "the last day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"... rather, it is the THIRD of those THREE ('days'), none of which are "singular 24-hr day" kind of days]

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

What you wrote was:

"The words used in Revelation 1:1 are the same as we find in Acts 25:4 In that verse, the force of the NEARNESS and SOONNESS is enhanced by the presence of MELLO (about to) - μελλειν εν ταχει."

To which I pointed out that:

Verse 19c - "and the things which mellei [are SURE to] take place AFTER THESE"... is not the same things that v.19a and v.19b speak of, which were ALSO [to be] "WRITTEN" by John--and ALL that was "WRITTEN" by John... all aspects of this Book, not just the "mellei" aspects "AFTER THESE," are to be "kept [guarded]" per vv.2-3's Subject--THAT is the difference between the grammar HERE in Rev1:1, 1:3, 1:19a,b,c and the grammar in Acts 25:4 (which are DISTINCT... are spelled out uniquely and are not comparable in the way you suggest. THAT is what seems to me to be [what you call] "exegetical contortionism" and an "agenda-driven approach" closely resembling and resulting in what I see as a severe "[Sam] STORMism"

Jesus did NOT say how long AFTER these things that would occur? Did He say THOUSANDS of years. NO. He said IMMEDIATELY. But you will fall back again to your

What you wrote was:

"The words used in Revelation 1:1 are the same as we find in Acts 25:4 In that verse, the force of the NEARNESS and SOONNESS is enhanced by the presence of MELLO (about to) - μελλειν εν ταχει."

To which I pointed out that:

--Verse 1 has the words "en tachei " (in quickness)... regarding the "which God gave unto Him [unto Jesus] TO SHOW UNTO" part.

IOW, there's no word "mello / mellei" connected with this phrase / verse grammatically (in v.1), as it is in your Acts 25:4 verse.

Besides that, it is true that "mello / mellei" can legitimately be translated "SURE [to]" ("CERTAIN [to]"), speaking to "intent," especially when referring to matters being / having been "prophesied" to occur (are "SURE to" / "CERTAIN to" take place... because prophesied to do so... )


In Acts 25:4, it speaks to the guy's "intent" ...

Literal Emphasis Translation
Therefore Festus answered, Paul is to be kept in Caesarea, and he himself is about to [mello / intends to / sure to - present infinitive] set out in quickness.

Berean Literal Bible
So indeed Festus answered that Paul is to be kept in Caesarea, and he himself is about to [mello / intends to / sure to - present infinitive] set out in quickness.

And you yourself don't have an "agenda"?? (a "Preterist" one...

... one which disregards the SEQUENCE issues that the Olivet Discourse shows, and which I've pointed out... that "the beginning of birth pangs" must take place AFTER the events surrounding 70ad, including the 70ad-aspect of "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... which is the exact OPPOSITE of what Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 shows to occur at the "GREAT" trumpet [distinct sound], which says, "and ye shall be gathered together ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"; Not forgetting what Romans 9:26 says OF THEM [not v.25 re: the Gentiles] "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'Ye are NOT MY PEOPLE'; there SHALL they be called the children of the living God" [Hos1:10-11])

Verse 19c - "and the things which mellei [are SURE to] take place AFTER THESE"... is not the same things that v.19a and v.19b speak of, which were ALSO [to be] "WRITTEN" by John--and ALL that was "WRITTEN" by John... all aspects of this Book, not just the "mellei" aspects "AFTER THESE," are to be "kept [guarded]" per vv.2-3's Subject--THAT is the difference between the grammar HERE in Rev1:1, 1:3, 1:19a,b,c and the grammar in Acts 25:4 (which are DISTINCT... are spelled out uniquely and are not comparable in the way you suggest. THAT is what seems to me to be [what you call] "exegetical contortionism" and an "agenda-driven approach" closely resembling and resulting in what I see as a severe "[Sam] STORMism"

My agenda is to honor the words of the Scripture. That leads to preterism.

The word MELLO occurs in the NT in various forms 109 times! Very, very often it occurs with an infinitive. The following are uses of it in its 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person singular present active indicative, its 3 person singular subjunctive, and its infinitive forms.
μελλω μελλει μελλεις μελλειν μελλη + the infinitive

Matthew 2:13 μελλει ζητειν (Herod “ABOUT TO search” for the child)
Matthew 16:27 μελλει ερχεσθαι (Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME)
Matthew 17:12 μελλει πασχειν (Son of Man is ABOUT TO suffer)
Matthew 17:22 μελλει παραδιδοσθαι (Son of Man is ABOUT TO BE betrayed)
Matthew 20:22 μελλει πινειν (the cup I am ABOUT TO drink)
Matthew 24:6 μελλει ακουειν (YOU are ABOUT TO hear)
Luke 9:44 μελλει παραδιδοσθαι (Son of Man ABOUT TO be delivered)
Luke 10:1 μελλει ερχεσθαι (where he himself was ABOUT TO go)
Luke 19:11 μελλει αναφαινεσθαι (the Kingdom of God was ABOUT TO appear)
John 7:35 μελλει πορευεσθαι (TWICE) (where . . . is He (Jesus) ABOUT TO go)
John 14:22 μελλεις εμφανιζειν (you are ABOUT TO manifest yourself)
Acts 17:27 μελλει κρινειν (ABOUT TO judge the world)
Acts 22:26 μελλεις ποιειν (“What are you ABOUT To do?”)
Acts 23:3 μελλει τυπτειν (Paul to Caiaphas: “God is ABOUT TO strike you.”)
Acts 24:15 μελλειν εσεσθαι (“There is ABOUT TO be a resurrection . . . “)
Acts 25:4 μελλειν εκπορευσεσθαι (Festus was “ABOUT TO go there . . . SHORTLY.”
Acts 26:23 μελλειν καταγγελλειν (Christ is ABOUT TO proclaim light)
Acts 27:10 μελλειν εσεσθαι (voyage ABOUT TO be disastrous)
Acts 28:6 μελλειν πιμπρασθαι (ABOUT TO swell up)
Romans 4:24 μελλει λογιζεσθαι (ABOUT TO be counted to us who believe)
REVELATION 1:19 μελλει γενεσθαι (ABOUT TO take place)
REVELATION 2:10 μελλεις πασχειν (ABOUT TO suffer) SEE Matthew 17:12!!!!
Revelation 2:10 μελλει βαλλειν (Devil is ABOUT TO throw some of you into prison)
Revelation 3:16 μελλω εμεσαι (“I am ABOUT TO spew you out of my mouth.”)
Revelation 10:7 μελλη σαλπιζειν (trumpet call ABOUT TO be sounded)
REVELATION 12:5 μελλει ποιμαινειν (one who is ABOUT TO rule)
REVELATION 17:8 μελλει αναβαινειν (Beast . . . is ABOUT TO rise)

Was Herod CERTAIN to search for the child or was he ABOUT TO search for the child? (Mat. 2:13)
Was the Son of Man CERTAIN to suffer or was He ABOUT TO suffer? (Mat. 17:12)
Was the Son of Man CERTAIN to be betrayed or was He ABOUT TO be betrayed? (Mat. 17:22)
Was Jesus CERTAIN to drink the cup or was He ABOUT TO drink the cup? (Mat. 20:22)
Was Jesus CERTAIN to be delivered into the hands of men or was He ABOUT TO be delivered into the hands of men? (Luke 9:44)
Was Jesus CERTAIN to go or was He ABOUT TO go? (Luke 10:1)
The centurion asked the Tribune: "What are you ABOUT TO do?" (Acts 22:26)
Was Festus CERTAIN to go to Caesarea or was he ABOUT TO go there? (Acts 25:4) He was to go there SHORTLY (εν ταχει--dative, singular, neuter, noun (from ταχος--because of the force of mello and the CONTEXT, it is translated SHORTLY in many translations).

NOTE: Acts 24:15 has the same wording in the Greek as Acts 27:10. The voyage was ABOUT TO be disastrous and "there was ABOUT TO be a resurrection. Same force of mello esesthai.
NOTE ALSO: Matthew 17:12 (Jesus was ABOUT TO suffer) is the same Greek wording as Revelation 2:10 (Devil is ABOUT TO) melleis paschein

There are numerous participial forms of mellow with the infinitive that also have the force of ABOUT TO. I would be happy to provide them if you would like. The word MELLO has been watered down to a simple future or a term of "certainty" in order to protect the futurist paradigm.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 17:12 μελλει πασχειν (Son of Man is ABOUT TO suffer)

Was the Son of Man CERTAIN to suffer or was He ABOUT TO suffer? (Mat. 17:12)

NOTE ALSO: Matthew 17:12 (Jesus was ABOUT TO suffer) is the same Greek wording as

In response to the bold ^ :

--Yes, most certainly...


--not only had Jesus Himself already "prophesied" of this, back in Matthew 16:21 "From that time forth began Jesus TO SHEW [G1166] UNTO his disciples, how that he MUST [G1163] go unto Jerusalem, and SUFFER [G3958] many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day"; but also...


--1 Peter 1:10-11 also says,
"1Pe 1:10 - As to this G3739 salvation, G4991 the prophets G4396 who prophesied G4395 of the grace G5485 that would come to you made G1567 G1830 careful G1567 G1830 searches G1567 and inquiries, G1830
1Pe 1:11 - [fn]seeking G2045 to know G2045 what G4169 person G5101 or G2228 time G2540 the Spirit G4151 of Christ G5547 within G1722 them was indicating G1213 as He predicted G4303 the sufferings G3804 ['equivalent to G3958' per BLB page] of Christ G5547 and the glories G1391 [fn]to follow. G3326 G3778 [AFTER THESE]


--additionally, Acts 3:18's "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, THAT CHRIST SHOULD SUFFER [G3958], he hath so fulfilled" ... and Acts 3:24's "Yea, and ALL THE PROPHETS FROM SAMUEL [see 1 Sam 8:7's CONNECTION with Jesus' (similar) words REGARDING HIMSELF in Luke 19:14
(reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream, see his brother's words OF REJECTION in Gen38:7 corresponding with Christ's FIRST advent)]
and THOSE THAT FOLLOW AFTER, as many as have spoken, HAVE LIKEWISE FORETOLD OF THESE DAYS"
(foretold of these "SUFFERING SERVANT" days, which Peter's listeners ['ye men of Israel,' v.12] HAD OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in their looking ONLY FOR the "conquering KING" aspect [thus they themselves FULFILLING those very prophecies... "[ye] delivered up... denied him... desired a murderer... and killed..." (re: His REJECTION / SUFFERING-SERVANT aspects];

...The "amill-teachings" [etc] get this wrong about what v.24 is conveying, making a WRONG "application" to the phrase "foretold of THESE DAYS"... because they MISS the TWO [DISTINCT] ASPECTS of "RAISE" in this chapter...

...ONE "raise" speaking of His being "RAISED" to a position of prominence PRIOR TO the Cross (vv.22-23,26 "a PROPHET shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [/Moses]..." and "raised up his SERVANT JESUS" ["raised" to a position of prominence in His role as PROPHET]);

...the OTHER "raise" speaking of His being "RAISED" from the dead AFTER the Cross)


--just one more example (of the "SUFFERING" aspect)... Jeremiah 11:19 (Jeremiah speaking of himself, but also prophesying of Jesus in His "SUFFERING Servant" days) speaks of "...I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter... they had devices against me, saying, Let us... CUT HIM OFF from the LAND OF THE LIVING [<--a phrase used 7x in Ezek to speak of a specific thing]" (see also Dan9:26a "CUT OFF" ['and have nothing' as some translations have it]... in a passage /prophecy (vv.24-27) which is spelled out SEQUENTIALLY)






So, yes, in view of all of the above (AND MORE), "Thus also, the Son of Man is CERTAIN [mello] to suffer from them" is entirely, biblically, appropriate in Matt17:12 !!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another thought for @LetGodBeTrue (and @Beckie )... what do you think about "Antipas, my faithful martyr," in Rev2:13b... "who was slain among you"... who was apparently martyred in 92ad or thereabouts... thus making the later (95ad) writing of Revelation fit the info (as opposed to the idea that it was written before 70ad)...


[quoting old post of mine]

Who do you believe Rev2:13's "Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who WAS SLAIN among you" ?

Some [most?] sources say he was martyred AFTER 70ad... What is your view on that?


Metropolis of Pergamum (Wikipedia) -

"The Christian community of Pergamon was one of the earliest established in Asia Minor during the 1st century AD. It also comprised one of the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned at the New Testament Book of Revelation, written by John the Apostle. According to the Christian tradition, Antipas was appointed bishop of Pergamon, by John. He was martyred there in 92 AD.[3]"


[end quoting old post]

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Yep... there are THREE of those... "days" ("in THESE last days" Heb1:2)



Consider what I put in my Post #26 (different thread):

-- https://christianchat.com/threads/looking-for-jesus.203611/post-4804943


[and along with that thought (at link post), "the last day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"... rather, it is the THIRD of those THREE ('days'), none of which are "singular 24-hr day" kind of days]

In response to the bold ^ :

--Yes, most certainly...


--not only had Jesus Himself already "prophesied" of this, back in Matthew 16:21 "From that time forth began Jesus TO SHEW [G1166] UNTO his disciples, how that he MUST [G1163] go unto Jerusalem, and SUFFER [G3958] many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day"; but also...


--1 Peter 1:10-11 also says,
"1Pe 1:10 - As to this G3739 salvation, G4991 the prophets G4396 who prophesied G4395 of the grace G5485 that would come to you made G1567 G1830 careful G1567 G1830 searches G1567 and inquiries, G1830
1Pe 1:11 - [fn]seeking G2045 to know G2045 what G4169 person G5101 or G2228 time G2540 the Spirit G4151 of Christ G5547 within G1722 them was indicating G1213 as He predicted G4303 the sufferings G3804 ['equivalent to G3958' per BLB page] of Christ G5547 and the glories G1391 [fn]to follow. G3326 G3778 [AFTER THESE]


--additionally, Acts 3:18's "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, THAT CHRIST SHOULD SUFFER [G3958], he hath so fulfilled" ... and Acts 3:24's "Yea, and ALL THE PROPHETS FROM SAMUEL [see 1 Sam 8:7's CONNECTION with Jesus' (similar) words REGARDING HIMSELF in Luke 19:14
(reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream, see his brother's words OF REJECTION in Gen38:7 corresponding with Christ's FIRST advent)]
and THOSE THAT FOLLOW AFTER, as many as have spoken, HAVE LIKEWISE FORETOLD OF THESE DAYS"
(foretold of these "SUFFERING SERVANT" days, which Peter's listeners ['ye men of Israel,' v.12] HAD OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in their looking ONLY FOR the "conquering KING" aspect [thus they themselves FULFILLING those very prophecies... "[ye] delivered up... denied him... desired a murderer... and killed..." (re: His REJECTION / SUFFERING-SERVANT aspects];

...The "amill-teachings" [etc] get this wrong about what v.24 is conveying, making a WRONG "application" to the phrase "foretold of THESE DAYS"... because they MISS the TWO [DISTINCT] ASPECTS of "RAISE" in this chapter...

...ONE "raise" speaking of His being "RAISED" to a position of prominence PRIOR TO the Cross (vv.22-23,26 "a PROPHET shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [/Moses]..." and "raised up his SERVANT JESUS" ["raised" to a position of prominence in His role as PROPHET]);

...the OTHER "raise" speaking of His being "RAISED" from the dead AFTER the Cross)


--just one more example (of the "SUFFERING" aspect)... Jeremiah 11:19 (Jeremiah speaking of himself, but also prophesying of Jesus in His "SUFFERING Servant" days) speaks of "...I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter... they had devices against me, saying, Let us... CUT HIM OFF from the LAND OF THE LIVING [<--a phrase used 7x in Ezek to speak of a specific thing]" (see also Dan9:26a "CUT OFF" ['and have nothing' as some translations have it]... in a passage /prophecy (vv.24-27) which is spelled out SEQUENTIALLY)






So, yes, in view of all of the above (AND MORE), "Thus also, the Son of Man is CERTAIN [mello] to suffer from them" is entirely, biblically, appropriate in Matt17:12 !!

I can no longer tolerate your cut and paste. It is difficult to follow. Please put the things you believe into your own words.

Again, there are MANY, MANY uses of mello in the NT. You refuse to see what the force of them because you are blinded by your preconceived ideas. You love them more than you love truth. Sad. You will never understand the Scriptures unless and until you place them in their proper context. Jesus and His Apostles repeatedly spoke of His SOON return in THAT day. You reject their words by twisting them to your own end. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I would continue with the MANY other uses of mello and their clear time indication, but you would reject that also. It is not worth my time. I shake off the dust from my feet and move on to those who are open to reason, evidence, and truth. You are not.

"THIS generation will by NO MEANS pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." Jesus was clear.
"In a very, very little while, He who is coming will come and will NOT delay." The writer of Hebrews was clear.
"The end of ALL things is AT HAND." Peter was clear.
And so were Paul and James and John.

You look for that which is already past and, therefore, you look in vain. Jesus is NOT coming again. He already came--a long time ago--when He said He would and in the manner He said He would. The Jews missed His Advent because they looked for the wrong kind of king; you have missed His Parousia because YOU look for the wrong kind of king. Keep looking. He will not come. He is ALREADY HERE!

 

[Beckie]

Another thought for @LetGodBeTrue (and @Beckie )... what do you think about "Antipas, my faithful martyr," in Rev2:13b... "who was slain among you"... who was apparently martyred in 92ad or thereabouts... thus making the later (95ad) writing of Revelation fit the info (as opposed to the idea that it was written before 70ad)...


[quoting old post of mine]

Who do you believe Rev2:13's "Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who WAS SLAIN among you" ?

Some [most?] sources say he was martyred AFTER 70ad... What is your view on that?


Metropolis of Pergamum (Wikipedia) -

"The Christian community of Pergamon was one of the earliest established in Asia Minor during the 1st century AD. It also comprised one of the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned at the New Testament Book of Revelation, written by John the Apostle. According to the Christian tradition, Antipas was appointed bishop of Pergamon, by John. He was martyred there in 92 AD.[3]"


[end quoting old post]

According to Eastern Orthodox traditions, according to the Commentary on the Apocalypse of Andreas of Caesarea, it is believed that Saint Antipas was the Antipas referred to in the Book of Revelation 2:13, as the verse says: "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." According to Christian tradition, John the Apostle ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamon during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred during the reign of Nero (54-68),[3] by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar at the Appollyon temple in Lyon/ Geneva Switzerland.

Not saying you death date is right or wrong. Pick which account wants to use . both of the dates are from WIKI

 

[Beckie]

I can no longer tolerate your cut and paste. It is difficult to follow. Please put the things you believe into your own words.

Again, there are MANY, MANY uses of mello in the NT. You refuse to see what the force of them because you are blinded by your preconceived ideas. You love them more than you love truth. Sad. You will never understand the Scriptures unless and until you place them in their proper context. Jesus and His Apostles repeatedly spoke of His SOON return in THAT day. You reject their words by twisting them to your own end. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I would continue with the MANY other uses of mello and their clear time indication, but you would reject that also. It is not worth my time. I shake off the dust from my feet and move on to those who are open to reason, evidence, and truth. You are not.

"THIS generation will by NO MEANS pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." Jesus was clear.
"In a very, very little while, He who is coming will come and will NOT delay." The writer of Hebrews was clear.
"The end of ALL things is AT HAND." Peter was clear.
And so were Paul and James and John.

You look for that which is already past and, therefore, you look in vain. Jesus is NOT coming again. He already came--a long time ago--when He said He would and in the manner He said He would. The Jews missed His Advent because they looked for the wrong kind of king; you have missed His Parousia because YOU look for the wrong kind of king. Keep looking. He will not come. He is ALREADY HERE!

"He will not come." Here is where we part ways ...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

can no longer tolerate your cut and paste. It is difficult to follow. Please put the things you believe into your own words.

Those ARE my own words.

And it took me a very long time to type that all out (extremely slow typist that I am). = )

In no way was it a C&P. EVERY thought expressed in that post was typed out, one at a time, by me (to the topic under present discussion).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@LetGodBeTrue ,


Consider:

Acts 26 -

21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But I have had God’s help to this day, and I stand here to testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would [G3195 - mellonton ] happen: 23 that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”


Did the "prophets and Moses" say this was "about to [happen]" from their perspective in time (i.e. that it was to occur in their era, when they said it [near to when they "said" it]), or did they say this was "CERTAIN to / SURE to [happen]" (i.e. prophesying of it... thus will be certain to occur)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

How long was the ministry of Jesus as He walked the earth ?

What I THINK you are trying to say is that, since Jesus' ministry, when He walked this earth, was three and a half years, that this means that the three and a half years referred to in this Daniel 12 text [Dan12:1,6-7] is the SAME SET of years.


But let me point out why that cannot be possible.


Daniel 12:1,6-7 refers to that which occurs AFTER the AOD [/ mid-point], i.e. GREAT tribulation (and is the very same time-frame that Daniel 7:20,21,22,23,24,25[,27] also speaks of)... ; which, if in your view the AOD occurred at the time of Jesus' death [or do you see that as occurring in the 70ad events??], this would place His 3.5-yr earthly ministry BEFORE the events spoken of in Dan12:1,6-7, see.








____________

Again, I see the "seals" of Revelation 6 as EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8... and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11...) but where v.12 states, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs [in vv.8-11]), the events of 70ad [in vv.12-24a/b] MUST take place FIRST / PRIOR TO / BEFORE all those.

THIS MEANS that Revelation [6+ (seals and forward)] is not DESCRIBING the events of 70ad... but what comes SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events [and I do not say "immediately" after... Recall, "the things WHICH ARE" (1:19b) are NOT said of THEM that THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," BY CONTRAST (contrast to the "things" 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1+ speaks of, which WILL )]

 

[Beckie]

Seems odd to me that the Son of God, our Lord our Salvation , figures so little into man's theology/eschatology.
This is a good part of the reason i am so pleased i was delivered from the bondage of dispensationalism

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Seems odd to me that the Son of God, our Lord our Salvation , figures so little into man's theology/eschatology.

^ @Beckie, here's what I said (instead of what you seemingly PERCEIVED me to have said):

... "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8... and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11...) but where v.12 states, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs [in vv.8-11]), the events of 70ad [in vv.12-24a/b] MUST take place FIRST / PRIOR TO / BEFORE all those.

It's another thing altogether to thoroughly disregard what Jesus actually SAID (as the "Preterist-teachings" and "Amill-teachings" consistently do... which I'm pointing out, repeatedly)...




... they constantly have the SEQUENCE / CHRONOLOGY (provided IN SCRIPTURE) entirely out of whack!

But oh well...

 

[Beckie]

^ @Beckie, here's what I said (instead of what you seemingly PERCEIVED me to have said):




It's another thing altogether to thoroughly disregard what Jesus actually SAID (as the "Preterist-teachings" and "Amill-teachings" consistently do... which I'm pointing out, repeatedly)...




... they constantly have the SEQUENCE / CHRONOLOGY (provided IN SCRIPTURE) entirely out of whack!

But oh well...

Please also note i did not address post 517 to any one poster.
I read what you said... I sure wish you would understand the large font and heavy bold make reading your work a chore.

what Jesus actually SAID like when He says "This generation "

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Beckie,

As to the "this generation" statements by Jesus:

--in Luke 21:32, "This generation shall not pass away till all shall have taken place" must necessarily include the two very lengthy items already spoken of in verse 24:
1) "and they shall be led away into all the nations";
2) "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the TIMES of [not FULNESS of] the Gentiles be fulfilled";

[these ^ are items that are initiated at the "70ad events"--Luke 21:12-24a/b--the "70ad events" that take place BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs"]


--in Matthew 24, that passage STARTS OUT speaking of:
1) "the beginning of birth pangs" (vv.4-8) which take place sequentially AFTER the 70ad events; and after telling of THOSE ('beginning of birth pangs'), goes on to speak of what takes place AFTER THOSE:
2) "the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet," which is followed by
3) "then shall be GREAT tribulation" (describing THAT period), which is what will be
4) leading up to the END-point which is His Second Coming to the earth in Matthew 24:29-31 (parallel Isaiah 27:9,12-13)...

...and then states in verse 34, "[likewise...] when you see ALL THESE THINGS [distinct and LATER things from what was told about regarding the "70ad events" in Lk21:12-24, recall] know that IT is near even at the doors. [...]"

[and saying next], v.35:
"... This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS shall have taken place"

[note again: "ALL THESE things" starting in Matthew 24:4-8 are details commencing with "the beginning of birth pangs," which take place sequentially after the events of 70ad... so are an entirely distinct set of things the "proleptic 'you'" shall "SEE" in order to "know it is near, even at the doors" (speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)
[that is, "know"] as a result of seeing "all these things"... So again, in BOTH passages, "This generation shall not pass / pass away" UNTIL the far-future Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth Rev19]






[see again Wm Kelly's commentaries on these phrases... in the next post]