TITHES
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One preacher I know said that we need to give God everything. Then He will allow us to have what we need to live. I like Watchman Nee's take: God has not got your heart until He has your wallet. He was amazing. He traveled China and went overseas, and never asked for any support. His role model was George Muller, who likewise refused to ask for money. God provided in amazing ways.
Giving is one of the most important and most abused aspects of the Christian life. When you see the prosperity crowd plunder the church for their own benefit, it's hardly surprising that some are loath to give. But we must. I found that out the hard way. As usual.....
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Ya ----and God will deal with them in their end -------This is where True Followers of the Way have to use their discernment in my view -and understand that these are Worldly People ----False prophets ----who are unbelievers and are under Satan's grip of the love of money ---which is evil -----and they are living as unbelievers live -----so for them money is their god -------and they are passing on their beliefs to others and sending them to their eternal destruction with no regret ---
God gives a grave warning to those people -----so we who are true followers of the Way ---need to do what is right and leave the unrighteous to God ------you can't help anyone who doesn't want the help to Know the way of the true understanding of what money is really for-----The fear of lack is very real to many Christians if they give to God from their finances------ this shows us where their heart and trust i ------but I also think Tithing and Giving comes more to light as we Mature Spiritually ----just my view -----
James 5 AMP --see verse 5
Misuse of Riches
5 Come [quickly] now, you rich [who lack true faith and hoard and misuse your resources], weep and howl over the miseries [the woes, the judgments] that are coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted and is ruined and your [fine] clothes have become moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. You have stored up your treasure in the last days [when it will do you no good].
4 Look! The wages that you have [fraudulently] withheld from the laborers who have mowed your fields are crying out [against you for vengeance]; and the cries of the harvesters have come to the ears of [a]the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 On the earth you have lived luxuriously and abandoned yourselves to soft living and led a life of wanton pleasure [self-indulgence, self-gratification]; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned and have put to death the righteous man; he offers you no resistance.
The scripture gave us the general principle of a good measure to hint tithe. While giving of offerings other than tithing is superfluous and is not measured as the tenth. Of, course, as v45 says A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which us good. Tithing principle is not abolish in the New Testament. Why? Because it is base on faith and faith still exist.
Tithing has nothing whatsoever to do with faith. It is obedience to an OT law that does not apply to Christians.
I could say a lot reguarding this comment. But instead, how about you read this and connect the dots yourself
“The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double price, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”” (1 Timothy 5:17–18)
“You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account. But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.” (Philippians 4:15–18)View attachment 237777
(1 Cor 9)
This principle of amply supplying our spiritual leaders (elders) can cause hindrances in the minds of some because they assume pastors do their work for the wrong reason, but it is absolutely Biblical.
To put it concisely, elders should never ask to be amply paid, but they also shouldn't have to.
If a church fellowship is healthy and thriving, the elders are biblically qualified. So they are men of truth, passionate, caring for the flock, good stewards, holy, etc. They are worthy of the double price. Healthy churches are generous churches ("God loves a generous giver"). When the people are generous, it is not difficult to amply pay the elders with plenty left over to give to the needy and other ministries. When we pay them well, it enables them to do what they're called to do full-time. And that is the most profitable thing for you and I and the rest of the body in the local confregation.
The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double price, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”” (1 Timothy 5:17–18)
yeah again the elders and teachers ect of those days weren’t receiving a paycheck so it makes sense they had to live and eat and if they were dedicated to the gospel and overseeing the church matters in those days they lived off the generosity of the church they fed spiritually.
my point is that today pastors already make a living and are paid by whatever institution employs them. I’m not interested in making a well off pastor richer I’d rather give to the poor among us like Jesus taught. If a pastor doesn’t make a wage we should give to them but I’m not in that situation my pastor has plenty.
“This principle of amply supplying our spiritual leaders (elders) can cause hindrances in the minds of some because they assume pastors do their work for the wrong reason, but it is absolutely Biblical.”
no I’m not saying Pastors shouldn’t receive a wage I’m saying now most of them are on the payroll in those days they weren’t. so their living depended on the people of the church providing what they needed.
pastors shouldn’t be made rich they should have what they need and give also to the poor among us themselves when they have plenty.
Pastors make a wage mostly these days im sure there are some who don’t and they should absolutely be supported by those they spiritually feed but I said that in my prior post. Pastors shouldn’t be made rich because they preach it was that they didn’t make a wage then and needed to live and have food.
if my pastor relied on tithes for food and rent I’d be the first to support him financially but that’s not the case in my church he has plenty and others have needs not met, which I choose to honor God that way according to Christ and his teachings about loving others in deed and truth.
You know how Paul and then gathered money ? Thy I didn’t keep it they supported the poor churches with the generously of the richer churches. They got what they needed also food and things but it wasn’t like today where they were looking to get richer and store up bank accounts.
So you have Paul who didn’t make any wage but the churches he fed supked his daily needs
“Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:14-18 KJV
that wasn’t tommake Paul rich it was to make sure he had what he needed to live and preach the gospel .
Then you have the richer churches goving to help the poorer churches
“Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
…..but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: as it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.”
2 Corinthians 8:1-2, 14-16 KJV
The church is about this principle regarding money and possessions
“And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.”
Acts 2:44-45 KJV
not about making any one person rich but those with plenty helping those with less than enough so all are supplied. That’s at least what I believe. The world today has really misshaped things and a lot of people have wants to be rich themselves but no regard for those who have less than they need
really our worldly means are just a way to keep food on our table and help to keep food and clothes ect in the lives of the needy also. But the world is about making sure we have a lot stored up for our self
"The laborer is worthy of his wages" (1 Tim 5:18)
Call it what you want (paycheck, support, supply). The Biblical principle is that they should be generously financially paid because their work is worthy of it.
I'm not sure if you're referring to bi-vocational elders or something else. If someone is truly called to eldership, they should take it seriously and wholly devote themselves to their congregation and be generously financially supplied ("double price").
With all respect, doctrinally, I don't care what you prefer or are interested in or what you'd rather do.
The wages due to the elder depend on his worthiness (Biblical qualification), not his wealth or lack of it.
Did you read my references to 1 Cor 9?
1. A Biblically qualified elder is "free from the love of money" (1 Tim 3:3) and uses his finances for God's kingdom (Ps 37:21, Pr 26:21).
2. Riches are a tool that God gives to the wise (Job, Joseph, Abraham, Solomon, Daniel - Prov 19:17)
3. It's no one's business to ascertain how much money anyone else has (2 Thes 3:11, 1 Tim 5:13, 1 Pet 4:15). Each person is responsible for overseeing their own finances, not the finances of others (Matt 25:14-30).
4. God will render and reward to each person according to their deeds (Prov 22:8-9, Rom 2:11, 2 Cor 9:6, Ral 6:5-7)
Please remember that I do not say that tithing is required of you.
Kindly stop attempting to hijack this thread. I will not respond to you further if you can't stay on topic.
“The Biblical principle is that they should be generously financially paid because their work is worthy of it.”
spastors are meant to be richly paid in money because they preach the gospel according to this ?
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.”
1 Timothy 5:14-19 KJV
I don’t think that is even talking about money when you look at the context it seems to be talking about honor and not letting gossip turn the flock against them who are preach and act right in tbier position and are feeding spiritually the flock with good doctrine ….to me anyways I don’t see it saying pastors and leaders should be financially paid well
this part is a quote from the ot he’s using to support his point about honoring those who work hard in the lord goving then the benefit of doubt more than others who maybe don’t act right.
…devote themselves to their congregation and be generously financially supplied ("double price").
I don’t think he’s talking about money because he says double honor he’s not even talking about money there.
“With all respect, doctrinally, I don't care what you prefer or are interested in or what you'd rather do.”
well lol honestly you aren’t any sort of authority over me so that’s irrelevant and sort of high minded it seems like but it’s neither here nor there in my mind or life.
as far as this subject and the quote your using I think your just wrong and it has nothing to do with money but honor and trust. but yeah I’m talking about what Jesus taught regarding money pastors and leaders and teachers of doctrine should be living This way in this principle
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. …No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
Matthew 6:19-21, 24 KJV
money and pay is an earthly matter leaders shouldn’t be wanting riches and if they have plenty they should be taking care of the poor in thier flock biblically speaking.
nope it’s way too small to read that but are you referring to this
“Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.”
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 KJV
lol again yeah like I was saying I’m not against a pastor getting a paycheck , I’m saying if they get a paycheck they don’t need more to store up from the flock they should be also sharing with the poor you know “Practicing what they are meant to be preaching ? “
again in those days they didn’t receive any paycheck , they received donations from the flock so they had food and what they needed. There is no support for pastors should have more money than others or anything if that’s what your saying.
elders in the church should be living after the principles Jesus taught “
“Sell your possessions give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven “ that type of thing like the church did in the beginning
but I don’t have time to run through the rest of your lost there at the moment
I would say that pastors who don’t have enough money to meet thier needs should be supported by the people they are feeding spiritually but the gospel is in no way meant as a way to get rich or think they should receive more money than the needy if they have enough already
anyways though it’s okay if you disagree I’m fine with that part. But I will continue on doing what I’ve done for a while now and my pastor who has plenty and isn’t needing is fine with it. What anyone here believes about tithing they should do because it’s according to thier faith not mine.
1. A Biblically qualified elder is "free from the love of money" (1 Tim 3:3) and uses his finances for God's kingdom (Ps 37:21, Pr 26:21).
2. Riches are a tool that God gives to the wise (Job, Joseph, Abraham, Solomon, Daniel - Prov 19:17)
3. It's no one's business to ascertain how much money anyone else has (2 Thes 3:11, 1 Tim 5:13, 1 Pet 4:15). Each person is responsible for overseeing their own finances, not the finances of others (Matt 25:14-30).
4. God will render and reward to each person according to their deeds (Prov 22:8-9, Rom 2:11, 2 Cor 9:6, Ral 6:5-7)
this above I agree with
“Please remember that I do not say that tithing is required of you”
yeah this again is sort of not applicable to me I already have someone overseeing my life I do what I can to follow his teachings and trust his ways which he never commanded his disciples ( the church ) to tithe that’s an Old Testament principle because the priests didn’t have any paychecks so they lived off tithes who served completely in the temple ordinances and had no other profession
the New Testament is about this principle for pastors or those they are preaching the gospel to
Pastors should both preach and also obey this principle
“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
1 John 3:16-19 KJV
Everyone who has plenty shoild
Be looking to the needs of those who don’t have enough tithing is sort of irrelevant in my opinion now in the church which are christs disciples those who follow after his teachings
In 1 Timothy 5, Verse 17-25 concerns elders in the church. Verse 17-18, specifically, overlaps with verses 5-18, which concerns finances in the church.
If verse 18 didn't exist, then it could be ambiguous as to what "honor" / "price" refers to in verse 17.
But verse 18 is the reason for verse 17; it is more context that clarifies the purpose of verse 17.
And if you study how Scripture combines these words: "double", "honor/price", "reward/value", etc...they are conveying a financial discussion.
"wages" can also translated "reward', "sum of money", "proceeds", "value", "price". It is a financial word.
Here is an example of how "reward" is still referring to finances (the stuff you trade for other things):
“but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.” (1 Cor 3:8)
The point is that it is something earned. So it doesn't depend on the elder's current financial status; he is worthy of it because he has worked hard for it. The reason some may have a hard time comprehending a pastor's paycheck is that we assume it will be spent on self-indulgent things not related to paying rent, food, gas, etc. Paul says a proper amount to provide an elder with is "double". That can mean double what he needs, double what you would pay someone else in the church, etc. I'll let you make your own conclusion about that. But without dispute, it is an ample supply for their honorable work. And yes, it is hard work.
yeah I prefer to just read it on context he isn’t talking about money there is the thing this is a quote from the ot he’s using to suooort his point about giving elders and teachers Who act right more honor than others he’s simply not talking about paying them more money
Than others the context is how we understand what’s being said at least that’s my own opinion rather than have it to figure out what it might mean by other means the epistles are just letters written to the church for edification not prophecy or puzzles needing to be dysyphered
Paul’s quoting from the ot to support his point see ?
“Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.”
Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
He’s not talking about money in that particular area but I agree with the rest of what your saying loving money is when we are storing it up and it is what is on our minds. when It’s more important to keep it for ourself our wants and pleasures and assurance for later , rather than using it for the needs of the poor around us.
anyways though like I was saying I do agree with some of the points you made after that but it means we can’t have our eyes and heart towards gaining finances we should look at it as a way to bless others in need whenever we’re blessed with plenty the more we receive should grow more generosity in Christ towards others
just my own belief though your more than welcome to yours also. I appreciate the conversation but I’m not a health and wealth gospel person money is for the use of what we need and then What others also need when we are able
“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
Matthew 19:21 KJV
“Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.”
Luke 12:33 KJV
Ready the previous 9 verses, you'll see a context of finances.
He quotes 2 Scriptures to clarify the reason for verse 17. This quote about not muzzling the ox is to show how elders should be comfortable rather than burdened if they serve your congregation.
The other Scripture he quotes is "the laborer is worthy of his wages", which I have explained is a financial term, and speaks of something earned.
“The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”” (1 Tim 5:17–18)
To not pay a worthy elder is to muzzle him while he works, creating more burden for him. He labors in his pastoral work and is worthy of his wages.
Good day Sir
I believe a lot depends on the ministers' motivation. Do they really work for the Lord or for the loot.
I rarely turn down a blessing. It seems to me that they too receive a blessing in the process. Blessing is a curious word because a true blessing has very few strings attached and the fewer the more of a blessing it turns into. We don't have to pay temple tax these days. We should be glad to help support a good shepherd.
these verses ?
“well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. ( gossip)
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.( men’s role in marriage )
For some are already turned aside after Satan.
If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. ( church supporting widows )
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.”
1 Timothy 5:10-19
still not really seeing it talking about leaders in the church receiving more money than others .
I’m pretty sure elders would be looking here for rewards and not so much money
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
and in those days would have probably thought more like the lord had taught which created a desire for thongs in heaven rather than earth
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
Matthew 6:19-21 KJV
and probably this would have been thier disposition towards money and it’s value
“And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.”
Colossians 3:14 KJV
which attitude they learned most likely here from thier lord and savior
“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
Matthew 19:21 KJV
it’s not wrong for us to have money, like I was saying my pastor is well off but at the same time he’s one of the most generous people you could
Meet , and genuinely cares more about the poor than buying a new boat or some other worldly possession he might want .
Jesus isn’t saying “ go become a poor wretch that needs someone to take care of you , he’s teaching us to love people much more than what selfish desires we may waste our money on. Things we just want rather than what brothers and sisters need. There should be no comparison and we want to be rewarded in our eternal Home not this one so
Much.
lol I wasn’t meaning to offend you or anything like I was saying we should be able to disagree respectfully and not get offended. I’m just sharing with you why I believe what I believe and why I’m not so interested in giving my pastor money when there are a lot of Christians and others who don’t have what they need.
That’s the closest thing to tithing in the New Testament give with a willing heart to those in need when you have the means to do So but again I’m not saying that’s your belief , just sharing mine with you. Mostly because you said you were t interested in what I choose regarding tithing I’m just sort of showing you why I choose to honor God according to christs teachings rather than tithing which isn’t taught in the New Testament.
And yes you also have a wonderful day in the lord !