What did Jesus mean?

[Amanuensis]

We were talking about whether or not the thief on the cross had been baptized. Most assume he was not, but the text does not say this. What the text does say is that when JtB was baptizing, "People went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea." Of course we do not know where the thief was at that time, or if he partook in such rituals, or even his ethnicity or religious orientation.

I understand. My point was that he didn't have to be baptized in water to be repentant.

Most people can be baptized in water publicly to show that they are serious about repentance and their decision to stop sinning. That is why he said born of water and the Spirit. Because most people can do this, he was indeed making it a point that people should consider baptism in water as an act of faith and repentance as an entry into the born again experience and the kingdom of God. It is their repentance and faith that results in the invisible born again process but the outward act of baptism helps them in this journey and we should assume it for every new convert.

But since this thief repented publicly it can't be said that he didn't do the same thing people do when they get baptized. But since this is going to be the exception to the rule, saying "born of water, (meaning repentance and a public declaration by being baptized in water would be the assumed path most people will take)

Unfortunately the devil has polluted the meaning of baptism since the 1st century and the protestant churches don't handle it correctly at all today. Most of them are baptizing Christians long after they were born again. It is supposed to help new converts at the time of their initial decision like the same day.

And then the devil gets people to pollute it in the opposite direction saying that one must be baptized in water or they are not saved as if there is magic in the sacrament.

 

[Amanuensis]

Maybe many don't get saved because they don't get baptized the day they hear the call to repent. They go home and the devil snatches the word from their understanding.

When we start having a baptism method available for the same day we give an invitation to repent so that people can be baptized on that day or later that evening maybe we will have many more longlasting converts. It is worth trying don't you think?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Maybe many don't get saved because they don't get baptized the day they hear the call to repent. They go home and the devil snatches the word from their understanding.

When we start having a baptism method available for the same day we give an invitation to repent so that people can be baptized on that day or later that evening maybe we will have many more longlasting converts. It is worth trying don't you think?

And how does that work in a prison cell, brother?

 

[Amanuensis]

And how does that work in a prison cell, brother?

Just like it would for the thief on the cross. He repented and had faith in Jesus.
However, in many cases in the US an inmate can request that a chaplain baptize them and they will do so in the jail infirmary.
I was baptized this way in the Dallas County Jail in 1983.
If he can't do that, his repentance and faith is the same as being born of water and of the spirit.

 

[Obey-JESUS]

In John 3: 5 Jesus talks about being born of water and the Spirit, what does this mean? Also, why can't one enter into the kingdom of God because of this?
John 3: 5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Is entering The Kingdom of GOD a Relationship with CHRIST!?

You want a relationship with Him in Spirit and Truth. Spirit/Life is in The Blood ....is Truth ...The Water because it cleanses ...washes away the lies and corruption? Repentance.

John 3:5
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Is this the same water we need Reborn with?:

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Upholding His Image is Obeying Him in a Relationship that includes The Way, The Truth, and The Life. It is how His Righteousness is bestowed on you ...it is how you Overcome ...it is how you are Covered in His Blood.


The Way = His Righteousness
The Truth = Overcome the lies
The Life = Covered in His Blood

The Water is also linked to us Joining CHRIST in His death ...through Baptism.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Is entering The Kingdom of GOD a Relationship with CHRIST!?

You want a relationship with Him in Spirit and Truth. Spirit/Life is in The Blood ....is Truth ...The Water because it cleanses ...washes away the lies and corruption? Repentance.

John 3:5
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Is this the same water we need Reborn with?:

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Upholding His Image is Obeying Him in a Relationship that includes The Way, The Truth, and The Life. It is how His Righteousness is bestowed on you ...it is how you Overcome ...it is how you are Covered in His Blood.


The Way = His Righteousness
The Truth = Overcome the lies
The Life = Covered in His Blood

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Just like it would for the thief on the cross. He repented and had faith in Jesus.
However, in many cases in the US an inmate can request that a chaplain baptize them and they will do so in the jail infirmary.
I was baptized this way in the Dallas County Jail in 1983.
If he can't do that, his repentance and faith is the same as being born of water and of the spirit.

The thief on the cross may not be a good choice to emphasise your claim that Satan may steal the word from those who hear it and then due to a failure to be baptised fall away - because Christ had not yet died. I was asking for a material fact of your claim. Dallas County Jail is one thing - the rest of the world in harsh and severe conditions is another. What of those who get saved in a prison cell and are not baptised the same day or perhaps for many days after they believed the word they heard? How will Satan not come and steal the word from them? Perhaps the Lord has an especial heart for convicted criminals and preserves them from the Devil!

I think your answer to me begs a question that is set out in the thread OP. What water? I am not contending with your personal witness - simply with the claims that you made @#161 and @#162. Truth does not revolve around what happens in the USA. It must stand on what is proven in every place. Personal witness is of course personal and so can be as it is witnessed.

Truth or doctrine cannot ever be personal. And simply to assert a non confrontational position - I was saved in solitary confinement in 1984. So I don't have a beef with being saved in prison. Neither a particular view that it is something that gives rise to any more truth than being saved in a harlots den.

 

[Amanuensis]

The thief on the cross may not be a good choice to emphasise your claim that Satan may steal the word from those who hear it and then due to a failure to be baptised fall away - because Christ had not yet died. I was asking for a material fact of your claim. Dallas County Jail is one thing - the rest of the world in harsh and severe conditions is another. What of those who get saved in a prison cell and are not baptised the same day or perhaps for many days after they believed the word they heard? How will Satan not come and steal the word from them? Perhaps the Lord has an especial heart for convicted criminals and preserves them from the Devil!

I think your answer to me begs a question that is set out in the thread OP. What water? I am not contending with your personal witness - simply with the claims that you made @#161 and @#162. Truth does not revolve around what happens in the USA. It must stand on what is proven in every place. Personal witness is of course personal and so can be as it is witnessed.

Truth or doctrine cannot ever be personal. And simply to assert a non confrontational position - I was saved in solitary confinement in 1984. So I don't have a beef with being saved in prison. Neither a particular view that it is something that gives rise to any more truth than being saved in a harlots den.

Generally speaking people should be given the opportunity to get baptized when they hear the Gospel and respond in faith. It is what I read in Acts and the plan I want to follow generally speaking. There are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[JohnDB]

I doubt there is any reason to doubt it LOL. Textually speaking, that is

But also, in case anyone would respond by saying something along the lines of, well, he was a criminal, a thief, and who knows what all else he may have been guilty of...? There is still nothing in the text to suggest he had never been baptized. And just for good measure: criminals can be just as sincere in their religiosity as any other pew warmer, and just as sincere in the practice of any rituals offered up to absolve them of their sins. The Mafia comes to mind...

Whether he was or not isn't really stated in scripture.
And it's really scary to me to go beyond what is written in scripture.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Generally speaking people should be given the opportunity to get baptized when they hear the Gospel and respond in faith. It is what I read in Acts and the plan I want to follow generally speaking. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Given that baptism in water is a living meaning [crucified in Christ - buried in Him] and not a mere symbol - and given the expression to be washed in the Word as being made clean, as Jesus spoke to Peter - and assuming that no one actually doubts that being born again means of the Spirit - then the question becomes what was Jesus telling Nicodemus regarding being born of water.

I agree that everyone who is born of the Spirit should be given an opportunity to be baptised else baptism becomes a mere symbol - a thing to be chosen and not a commandment to be obeyed. Whereas baptism in water is implicated in salvation. But what happens if a person is baptised after making a claim to believe into Christ and is then baptised the same day or even a few days later? Doesn't the baptiser need to establish a true faith in the risen Lord before he baptises? How can you bury a man who is yet alive if he is only in possession of an emotional response? Doesn't that reduce baptism to a mere symbol and remove its living meaning? Of course I am asking a facile question - and yet it is no less an implication to how baptism is now seen in many churches than your statement regarding the protestant denominations.

 

[Amanuensis]

Given that baptism in water is a living meaning [crucified in Christ - buried in Him] and not a mere symbol - and given the expression to be washed in the Word as being made clean, as Jesus spoke to Peter - and assuming that no one actually doubts that being born again means of the Spirit - then the question becomes what was Jesus telling Nicodemus regarding being born of water.

I agree that everyone who is born of the Spirit should be given an opportunity to be baptised else baptism becomes a mere symbol - a thing to be chosen and not a commandment to be obeyed. Whereas baptism in water is implicated in salvation. But what happens if a person is baptised after making a claim to believe into Christ and is then baptised the same day or even a few days later? Doesn't the baptiser need to establish a true faith in the risen Lord before he baptises? How can you bury a man who is yet alive if he is only in possession of an emotional response? Doesn't that reduce baptism to a mere symbol and remove its living meaning? Of course I am asking a facile question - and yet it is no less an implication to how baptism is now seen in many churches than your statement regarding the protestant denominations.

Because we see those in the house of Cornelius filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before they are baptized and assuming that no one doubts that they were saved or born again as evidenced by the speaking in tongues (filled with the Holy Spirit) as Peter said he knew that they were because he heard them speak in tongues, and then he asks for water to baptize them we can conclude that it is symbolic of an inward invisible thing that had clearly already taken place before his very eyes and ears.

That would tell us that doing it after the fact even the next day would still be keeping with the spirit of the text we read but this putting it off for months or even years does discount it's meaning and purpose in my view.

 

[Magenta]

Whether he was or not isn't really stated in scripture.
And it's really scary to me to go beyond what is written in scripture.

I agree. That is why I said what I did, about how so many claim that the thief was not baptized.

We don't know because the text does not say.

 

[BroTan]

In John 3: 5 Jesus talks about being born of water and the Spirit, what does this mean? Also, why can't one enter into the kingdom of God because of this?
John 3: 5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Let’s jump right in a conversation that Jesus was having with a man name Nicodemus in John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God. Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information. He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When he mentions spirit He means exactly that. Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice: He made a difference between flesh and spirit. Ask yourself that question, was you born flesh or spirit?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice: He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

 

[Amanuensis]

Whether he was or not isn't really stated in scripture.
And it's really scary to me to go beyond what is written in scripture.

We can assume he wasn't. Remember John told them that they were not to think that getting baptized would do any good if they did not bring forth fruit meet for repentance. As a matter of fact John was telling them not to get baptized until they were serious about quitting the sins they were doing. Therefore it is more likely that this THIEF had only just then or maybe in the last few days become ashamed and repentant of his Thievery and had a different mind than the other thief mocking Jesus.

If he had been baptized in such a way that it meant what John taught he would have stopped thieving and not be on the cross as a thief.
Even though we cannot prove that he did not get baptized repent and get arrested for a previous crime he committed before his baptism, it is much more likely that his story is included to give us balance concerning the inward nature of repentance and faith being superior to the ritual of baptism in water by itself. Even the baptism in water would do them no good if they were not truly repentant in their hearts and demonstrated it by quitting the things they used to do. That is what John told them. So as we add all of these texts surrounding baptism we get a clear picture that it is not the act itself but the repentance it represented.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Because we see those in the house of Cornelius filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before they are baptized and assuming that no one doubts that they were saved or born again as evidenced by the speaking in tongues (filled with the Holy Spirit) as Peter said he knew that they were because he heard them speak in tongues, and then he asks for water to baptize them we can conclude that it is symbolic of an inward invisible thing that had clearly already taken place before his very eyes and ears.

That would tell us that doing it after the fact even the next day would still be keeping with the spirit of the text we read but this putting it off for months or even years does discount it's meaning and purpose in my view.

I disagree that baptism in water is [just] a symbol - albeit I can understand the need to say so due to the heresy of baptismal regeneration. Salvation is the real issue is it not? And so it is salvation that needs to be answered. Not in this thread, however. It is not within the scope of the thread OP. Being born again is the beginning of salvation and resurrection of the body is its conclusion and fulfilment. Its what stands in the midst of these two things that concerns myself. That is the narrow way of obedience. And what we have is not what John the baptiser gave to his disciples. To conflate the baptism of John with a believers baptism seems likely to produce some schisms. Still, water baptism is a reality borne out of obedience to believing into Christ when we were born again in spirit - not through baptism in water - but by faith.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

So everything except reptiles and birds has been born of water?

That makes no sense.

Does not compute whatsoever.

The passage is explaining that in order to enter the kingdom of God, you must go through two births ( natural and spiritual). It isn't that difficult to understand. The word " and" means that both have to accur.

 

[JohnDB]

We can assume he wasn't. Remember John told them that they were not to think that getting baptized would do any good if they did not bring forth fruit meet for repentance. As a matter of fact John was telling them not to get baptized until they were serious about quitting the sins they were doing. Therefore it is more likely that this THIEF had only just then or maybe in the last few days become ashamed and repentant of his Thievery and had a different mind than the other thief mocking Jesus.

If he had been baptized in such a way that it meant what John taught he would have stopped thieving and not be on the cross as a thief.
Even though we cannot prove that he did not get baptized repent and get arrested for a previous crime he committed before his baptism, it is much more likely that his story is included to give us balance concerning the inward nature of repentance and faith being superior to the ritual of baptism in water by itself. Even the baptism in water would do them no good if they were not truly repentant in their hearts and demonstrated it by quitting the things they used to do. That is what John told them. So as we add all of these texts surrounding baptism we get a clear picture that it is not the act itself but the repentance it represented.

Baptism of repentance.

Key phrase that we gloss over today.
Someone got leprosy over this once before. Because they put their own sacrifice on the altar for their sins instead of allowing the priest to do it for them. Because unless you were a Levite you could not ask God to forgive your own sins. You needed an intermediary under Old Testament Law.
A regular person also could not quote scriptures and explain what they meant to anyone else... especially the Five Books of Moses. (AKA the Law)

But these people Baptized by John were doing just that. They were entering the Priesthood of every believer that we have today that we tend to treat so common...but it's anything else but common.
These were big big doings to your average person in Israel.

Yes, they all knew scripture. But that by no means meant they were allowed to handle it. That was considered to Blaspheme the Name. Worthy of stoning. Going to God directly in an unworthy fashion had killed any number of priests and they had to be dragged out of the Holy of Holies by the rope attached to their ankle.

Scary stuff for your average person.

 

[Wansvic]

...And then the devil gets people to pollute it in the opposite direction saying that one must be baptized in water or they are not saved as if there is magic in the sacrament.

Actually Jesus was the one who said those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) He did not say get baptized after you have been saved. Salvation is not possible for those whose personal sins have not been remitted. And according to the God-given command that is only possible through obedience to water baptism. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

Because we see those in the house of Cornelius filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before they are baptized and assuming that no one doubts that they were saved or born again as evidenced by the speaking in tongues (filled with the Holy Spirit) as Peter said he knew that they were because he heard them speak in tongues, and then he asks for water to baptize them we can conclude that it is symbolic of an inward invisible thing that had clearly already taken place before his very eyes and ears.

That would tell us that doing it after the fact even the next day would still be keeping with the spirit of the text we read but this putting it off for months or even years does discount it's meaning and purpose in my view.

Submitting to God's command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and being filled with the Holy Ghost serve two different purposes. Receiving remission of one's personal sin and being indwelt with the Spirit of God are both necessary parts of the rebirth process designed by God. (Acts 2:2-38) This is why all detailed conversions recorded in the Word include both. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

The passage is explaining that in order to enter the kingdom of God, you must go through two births ( natural and spiritual). It isn't that difficult to understand. The word " and" means that both have to accur.

Why would Jesus need to explain that a person could not enter the kingdom unless they had been born? He wouldn't. That is a foregone conclusion.