Specifically, where does it state that in Genesis. It says that Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed. It doesn't even say that God had forbidden the knowledge of good and evil, but rather it was forbidden to eat of the tree. It was Satan that twisted the truth to deceive Eve enticing her to eat of such tree. Being naked had nothing to do with this.
DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT INSTRUCT US TO BE CLOTHED IN PUBLIC?
- Thread starter Sudakar
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I see we have different perspectives on what Jesus really said. My perspective is that there's only a stumbling block because a preacher like yourself probably told them that a stumbling block exists. I think it's better to not tell people what they should be offended about or you end up with the world we have today where everyone seems to be a victim.
Do you see how being aware of what is offensive is what causes the little ones to stumble? I am sure that this is what Jesus meant. It's better to be stronger or, as Jesus said, be a sheep among wolves.
Matthew 10:16
16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves
Neither I, nor anybody else has to tell someone what they should be offended about- they already know what offends them. But it's a good thing to warn people when they are doing something that is offensive to God.
No. The problem with "victims" in the world today is that "victims" hold onto their victimhood (unforgiveness), which is a separate issue. That doesn't mean you just ignore offenses against you, and pretend they don't exist- you have to acknowledge them within yourself to forgive them. If you just ignore the offences, then you won't warn the offender, and he will probably continue to offend you and other people and God.
I think what you're saying has the appearance of what is good and right, but ultimately it's a manmade doctrine. The fact still stands that Jesus said this:
Mark 9:42
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
The word "offend" used above literally means "entice to sin." People are enticed to sin through their knowledge. If there is no commandment there can't possibly be a sin. So giving people a list of dos and don'ts is actually tantamount to putting someone under a law that Christians are not bound to and therefore makes people stumble, be offended, and sin.
Paul taught the same thing as Jesus, but actually made it a lot clearer in a way gentiles can understand.
Romans 4:15
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
People are enticed to sin by their own desires. (james1).
This is true- there is no transgression without law- but there is still sin. (note the difference between "sin" and "transgression", where transgression is deliberate sin)
So, if all you are saying is that babies are without transgression, I definitely agree with that.
James 1 is correct, but it isn't the full picture.
Take this verse into account as well:
Romans 5:13
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So babies don't have a law, they aren't aware of sin, they don't understand anything, therefore they are sinless. The age of accountability is a real thing. I know that's normally a Catholic doctrine, but no I am not Catholic. They happen to be right about this one particular thing though.
Babies are born with a corrupt nature ----(Sin Nature )--
I agree that God has given children a graced period of time where He does not impute sin on children as they do not know right from wrong -----good from evil -----and until they understand fully the difference between good and evil they are deemed innocent by God -----and God does not impute sin upon them -----
There is scripture to back this up ------
God's people rebel here
Deuteronomy 1:37-40 ABCE
37 The Lord was angry with me also for your sakes, and said, You also shall not enter Canaan.
38 But Joshua son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover, your little ones whom you said would become a prey, and your children who at this time cannot discern between good and evil, they shall enter Canaan, and to them I will give it and they shall possess it.
40 But as for you, turn and journey into the wilderness by way of the Red Sea.
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this describes Jesus as a boy -----not being able to know right from wrong -----
Isaiah 7 NIV
The Sign of Immanuel
13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f]
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
I agree that God has given children a graced period of time where He does not impute sin on children as they do not know right from wrong -----good from evil -----and until they understand fully the difference between good and evil they are deemed innocent by God -----and God does not impute sin upon them -----
There is scripture to back this up ------
God's people rebel here
Deuteronomy 1:37-40 ABCE
37 The Lord was angry with me also for your sakes, and said, You also shall not enter Canaan.
38 But Joshua son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover, your little ones whom you said would become a prey, and your children who at this time cannot discern between good and evil, they shall enter Canaan, and to them I will give it and they shall possess it.
40 But as for you, turn and journey into the wilderness by way of the Red Sea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this describes Jesus as a boy -----not being able to know right from wrong -----
Isaiah 7 NIV
The Sign of Immanuel
13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f]
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
You're not clarifying as I asked. So you will probably not be satisfied with my answer.
I have it, but I don't need it.
You are mistaken, my friend, about our nature of sin. It is something we are born with. The Bible explicitly says we die because of Adam's sin. Yes, we are accountable for our actions, but we inherited a sinful nature from our forefathers, Adam. We are born in iniquity, fallen, destined to die. But in Christ, all can be made alive.
Non-sequitur.
I have it, but I don't need it.
They have it, but they aren't held accountable until they are old enough to understand what it means to choose evil.
You are mistaken, my friend, about our nature of sin. It is something we are born with. The Bible explicitly says we die because of Adam's sin. Yes, we are accountable for our actions, but we inherited a sinful nature from our forefathers, Adam. We are born in iniquity, fallen, destined to die. But in Christ, all can be made alive.
I do not understand you. Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'll say it again: Lord Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a sinful man. He was born without the sin nature. He was born spiritually alive, not dead in trespass and sin as we are. At the age of 12 he was amazing priests with His knowledge of God. He was no ordinary man. How is that so hard for you to comprehend?
We have an example of who a perfect person is we can make deductions from that. You're saying that what makes children evil is that they are "demanding, selfish, rebellious, proud and deceptive."
What I am mostly talking about are infants, not people who reach the point of self-awareness and learn rebellion, pride, and deception. Even then it can be hard to really quantify because children often don't understand what they are feeling. Outwardly from, your perspective, you may see your child didn't do exactly what you asked so it appears to be rebellion when they didn't do what you asked. Ever worked with people who don't fully understand your native language? Nuance and intention are lost in translation; it's the same speaking to inexperienced children. They really aren't as bad as you claim they are, they are innocent and make a lot of mistakes, but it isn't a problem if you accept them as they are.
Children do eventually reach a point of accountability which is a different subject.
Since Jesus was perfect as a baby when He wanted something to eat He cried like a normal baby so Mary would know when to feed Him. By that fact alone, we can determine that being demanding and selfish for nourishment is not a sin because Jesus was perfect.
By process of elimination, you have failed to conclusively demonstrate with sound reasoning or biblical substance that children are evil.
You mean babies are born with nature of sin? If so did Adam and Eve have the nature of sin because they stayed unclothed in God's most holy presence?
You are confusing between the forbidden knowledge of good & evil & acts of evil.
Jesus says babies believe in Him (Mathew18:6).
They started to have the forbidden knowledge of good & evil after eating the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3:22:"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil").
Now you are using Jude1:4 to proclaim that condemnation is based on works that is, you claim you are justified by your works!
Jude 1:4 is talking about those who deny the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Please don't confuse.
Now you are using Jude1:4 to proclaim that condemnation is based on works that is, you claim you are justified by your works!
Jude 1:4 is talking about those who deny the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Please don't confuse.
lol
you really don’t have much to say do you ?
You are begging the question. You haven't given a counter because you don't have a counter!
If not the forbidden knowledge of good & evil, what told Adam and Eve they committed evil by staying unclothed? Gen3:11:"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Without answering my questions you beg the question. Let me repeat the questions you evade:
So the law of Spirit of life is no different from the law of the land & the law of Moses!
So you sneak in the law of Moses in a different name? And you are justified by works & not by faith?
If all you want to do is create a straw man and argue, I will take Paul's advice and ignore you. I could see this coming, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Enough is enough.
So the law of Spirit of life is no different from the law of the land & the law of Moses!
So you sneak in the law of Moses in a different name? And you are justified by works & not by faith?
Where is the straw man in the above questions?