Definition of FAITH in the NT

[GRACE_ambassador]

And a faith with no actions following it? That is not a complete faith
by any means.

Precious friend, so you would say that "the believer IS NOT "Complete In CHRIST,"
until the "end of his life, having proved one's faith by PERFECT works"? Or:

At the "moment of repentance and faith" (Before any actions/works), This Truth:

Col 2:10 "And ye are Complete In Him, Which is The Head of all​

principality and power:​

Col 2:11 In Whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision​

made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the​

flesh by The Circumcision of Christ:​

Col 2:12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen​

with him through the faith of The OPERATION Of God, Who hath​

raised Him from the dead.​

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision​

of your flesh, Hath He Quickened together with Him, having​

Forgiven you ALL trespasses;"​

ETERNAL Life first, by The Merits Of The Precious BLOOD Of CHRIST,
And, Then:

"works For Rewards" Should follow, to prepare the Already
Eternally Saved For Judgment Correct?: Are All "going to be faithful"?:

1Co 3:8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and​

Every [faithful And UNfaithful] man shall receive his own reward ​

according to his own [faithful OR UNfaithful] labour.​

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's​

husbandry, ye are God's building..."​

​

(q: How, exactly, are "the lost" labourers With God?)​

1Co 3:10 "...According to The GRACE Of God Which Is Given unto​

me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and​

another buildeth Thereon. But let Every man Take Heed how ​

he buildeth Thereupon.​

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than That Is Laid,​

Which Is JESUS CHRIST.​

1Co 3:12 Now if Any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver,​

precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;..."​

​

[friend(s), How are you building on THE Foundation, JESUS CHRIST?]​

1Co 3:13 "...Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The​

{Judgment} Day Shall Declare it, because it shall be revealed​

by fire; and the fire shall try Every man's work of what sort it is..."​

(Correct, Or false?)​

​

1Co 3:14 "...If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon,​

he shall receive a reward.​

​

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:​

but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire."​

+​

2Ti_2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with HIM: {reward?}​

if we deny Him, He also will deny us {loss of reward?}:​

-------------------
Conclusion:

1) The saved are "Complete In Him" at the one-time Moment
of "GRACE Through faith, By HIS BLOOD, Apart from ALL works!"

2) The "works are for REWARDS (or lack thereof), At Judgment!" Amen?

3) This Truth prevents us "biting and devouring one another,
from judging others/looking for proof," and Also Exhorts us to

"simply share The GRACE Gospel," and Then:​

4)
Encourage new believers ("saved apart from works") to realize This Truth:

Eph 2:10 "For we are HIS Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus​

unto good works, which God hath before ordained that​

we should walk in them."​

After which, it is up to the "believer to walk in/be Guided By, The Spirit!"
Correct?
-------------------------
More info for Further prayerful/Careful Consideration?:

God's OPERATION On ALL His New-born babes In CHRIST!
+
God's ETERNAL Assurance!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Blik]

You wrote:
So the real issue is "What is saving faith"? And saving faith is absolute and wholehearted belief that everything about the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible is true, particularly that He is God the Son (also called the Son of God) who died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for our justification according to the Scriptures. Saving faith comes from hearing (or reading) and believing the Gospel

Yes, I agree with what you wrote above, but a key ingredient of saving faith is still missing. One must not only believe the facts of the Bible and the fact that Jesus died, etc., but one must also believe that I am justly a sinner going to hell and I am in desperate need of the atoning substitutionary death of Jesus to ransom me from eternal judgment.

If you believe all you say, but you don't believe in what Christ tells you enough to let Christ lead your life so you do as Christ tells you to do, then your belief is not a saving belief. Demons believe in Christ and know what you say is true they are not saved.

 

[Aaron56]

Faith is such a rich subject!

 

[Lafftur]

Hello Didy! aka @TDidymas

If you're the same "Didy" from the past, it's great to see you again! I haven't seen @Mel85 in a long time. It was always fun chatting with you both!

Hebrews 11:1

King James Version

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is different from Trust....both involve believing but Faith is believing because you KNOW the final outcome or end result; whereas, Trust is believing when you DON'T KNOW the outcome or end result but, you KNOW God well enough to KNOW the end will be VERY GOOD - everything will be alright.

Faith is divine knowledge that is given to each of us ONLY by God (Word and Holy Spirit) and it is absolutely undeniable - no wishful thinking or hoping it is true, we absolutely KNOW it is TRUE.

Doubt is rejecting the undeniable knowledge given to us by God even though we KNOW it is true, we reject it because we don't want it to be true and/or we let our human reasoning dismiss it as not true even though, we KNOW it is TRUE.

If we already have received the Promise of eternal life physically, then there is NOTHING to hope for or any evidence needed; therefore Faith involves future promises and things that have not yet manifested in the physical realm but, we KNOW they will come to pass by God's Word and Holy Spirit revealing them to us.

 

[oldhermit]

It seems to me that faith is trusting in something. We trust that the Bible is the word of God, that God was able and willing to communicate to us through writings of the prophets and apostles (and other prominent Christians of the day) - so faith is an assumption about what the Bible is, and what it teaches.

So, when Paul wrote "with the heart man believes unto righteousness," he is talking about assuming that Christ has delivered us from the nature of sin (that is, the principle thereof), which is the same as using our imagination to reach out to God for making us righteous. If we are in Christ, then we are reaching to God with heart-faith for righteousness. And since deliverance from the sin principle is ongoing in this life, we continue living this heart-faith.

"With the heart man believes..." - meaning that we actively imagine God helping us live at all times. So God is with us at all times, and not someone "out there, demanding we do things by our own strength and willpower". So the ethical commands aren't "do this or be condemned," but rather "Christ has done so much for us, that we are so grateful as to love Him with all our heart, to do whatever He says.

"...unto righteousness" - so that our right standing with God is not merely a position in Christ, but is an active and vital role that God is producing right living through us. And here is James also using the idea, since he says "faith without works is dead." He is emphasizing that the right kind of faith is that kind which obeys Christ's command to love others in a practical way. Yet, when he says "faith without works," he is stooping to the level of the gnostics (or whoever is claiming to have faith in the wrong way) in his usage of the term, in order to distinguish between the claim of faith and actual faith in Christ.

And we can see the same idea taught by the writer of Hebrews (a third witness) when he wrote about those people who died in the wilderness of Numbers, saying about their unbelief "they did not mix what they heard with faith." (Heb. 4:2 - I come to this paraphrase after comparing different translations). He uses the term faith in the same manner.

So what James is writing against is the idea that someone having faith in Christ can do just anything they want (namely practice class prejudice) and still be saved. He is saying that's not real faith in Christ, and that's why it's "dead." Someone having real faith is going to love their neighbor in the same way that Christ does and commanded us to do.

This is the only kind of faith that makes "sola fide" correct in the Biblical framework. It's the only kind of faith that measures up to what the whole NT is about.

FAITH / BELIEF
By Glen Rogers
Faith and belief are both from the word πίστις which means 'to be persuaded'. Biblical faith reflects two interlocking dynamics. The first is the mental acceptance of a set of facts which we regard as doctrine, the second is the action that responds to those convictions.

Belief is the fundamental structure for salvation, but belief is never presented in scripture as simply an intellectual exorcise. Biblical faith is more than just a simple acknowledgement of a set of revealed truths or doctrines. Faith is always presented as behavior that actively responds to the word of God. James makes the point that faith apart from obedience to the will of God is not faith. Faith is legitimized only when it is linked to action. We see this in a number of examples given by the Hebrew writer. In Hebrews 11, belief/faith is inseparably linked to active response that legitimizes what the mind has accepted as true. Without obedience to the will of God, there is no acknowledgement of faith. By faith, those offered as examples, did what God commanded; and because they did, God regarded them as faithful.

Belief is an exercise of the mind and obedience is the pragmatic response. Faith cannot exist one without the other. One simply cannot function without the other. Although “faith” and “belief” in the New Testament are translated from the same Greek word and are very often used interchangeably, there are times when one is clearly differentiated from the other. If there is a difference between faith and belief it would seem to be the difference between the cognitive response (which is the abstract intellectual exorcise of accepting something as truth), and the active response which is more concrete. This is the point James makes about faith. Faith itself is an abstract because faith is not something that can be seen. In order for faith to be legitimized, it must be demonstrated in observable behavior. You cannot see faith, but you can see the results of faith. It was incumbent upon Israel to do more than simply acknowledge the words of the Lord intellectually. They were to “observe all the words of this law to do them.”

 

[Mel85]

Hello Didy! aka @TDidymas

If you're the same "Didy" from the past, it's great to see you again! I haven't seen @Mel85 in a long time. It was always fun chatting with you both!

Hebrews 11:1

King James Version

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is different from Trust....both involve believing but Faith is believing because you KNOW the final outcome or end result; whereas, Trust is believing when you DON'T KNOW the outcome or end result but, you KNOW God well enough to KNOW the end will be VERY GOOD - everything will be alright.

Faith is divine knowledge that is given to each of us ONLY by God (Word and Holy Spirit) and it is absolutely undeniable - no wishful thinking or hoping it is true, we absolutely KNOW it is TRUE.

Doubt is rejecting the undeniable knowledge given to us by God even though we KNOW it is true, we reject it because we don't want it to be true and/or we let our human reasoning dismiss it as not true even though, we KNOW it is TRUE.

If we already have received the Promise of eternal life physically, then there is NOTHING to hope for or any evidence needed; therefore Faith involves future promises and things that have not yet manifested in the physical realm but, we KNOW they will come to pass by God's Word and Holy Spirit revealing them to us.

Hello my beautiful sister!! Been awhile indeed! I’ve only just come back few days ago to visit the forums lol hope all is well and love the encouragement!! ❤️

 

[TDidymas]

Biblical faith is clearly and plainly defined in Hebrews 11:1.

If Heb. 11:1 is so clear, why is there so much controversy over it? Can you explain it in layman's language so that anyone can understand it? Also, please explain why the KJV translated elegchos "evidence," but modern translations render it "conviction" or "confidence"? Although some render it "proof". There is a big difference between evidence and conviction. Someone's action is evidence, and can point to either conviction or pretention. My point is that saying "clearly and plainly defined" leaves much to be desired.

 

[TDidymas]

I agree more or less. We're saved by faith and we complete the race by faith. If we give up and forsake the faith how are we to finish the race?

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down and count up the cost, whether he has the resources to complete it? Lest perhaps after he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all those who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' "—Luke 14:28-30

If someone gives up and forsakes the faith, is it because they weren't fully convinced, so they became convinced of something else?

 

[TDidymas]

amen the whole chapter is more comprehensive it even tells us the framework of what we must believe

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6

many won’t hear that such as I suspect the op is in contrast with that verse. Many hold a contrary view for instance

“God isnt a rewarded of those who diligently seek him , he rewards any and all whether they are diligent in seeking him or not . because we’re saved by faith and not works if we think we need to seek him we don’t have faith “

we sort of pit one verse against the other and make each refute the other rather than taking it all in to form a more complete understanding

Can you pls explain how the OP is in contrast with Heb. 11? (I'm assuming you voted a disagree)

 

[TDidymas]

Thread Title ------Definition of FAITH in the NT

This is a very Important Topic and I hope all get involved in it as Faith is the Foundation to God's Word and promises -----

This subject is not taught in any Church I have attended -----they speak of Faith but it is never really explained so people actually get it ------I personally don't think many Ministers etc actually know themselves what faith is and isn't ---so they talk about it but really can't explain it -------

This word Faith is used very haphazardly ---Many use it to say what religion they are ---I am of the Christian Faith ----well what does that mean ?????? what kind of Faith is that ??????

I say
There are 3 different Faiths -----2 are non producing Faiths and One is a Producing Faith ------

God's faith Produces ---Human Faith and Demonic Faith do not produce ----Human Faith relies on your 5 senses and demons only have faith that Jesus is God and shudder ----

Strong's Concordance
Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!

I say -------God's Faith brings the unseen into this seen realm -------this Faith is a Substance -----Faith is your title deed for bringing God's Promises into this physical realm as well as your hopes

Greek word for Subsatace ---------

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis:
Definition: a support, substance, steadiness, assurance
Usage: (lit: an underlying), (a) confidence, assurance, (b) a giving substance (or reality) to, or a guaranteeing, (c) substance, reality.-------------standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

I say
Faith is powerful-----it can move a mountain according to scripture ----

Faith always requires a POSITIVE RESPONSE -from us --------which is acting on your faith -----Your putting your Faith into action -----when you speak your speaking Faith Words ----

Scripture says-------- Call those things that be not as though they were -----your words are faith filled -----as we are made in God's Image -----God said then God SAW what HE SAID ---

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Read all for yourselves -----just posting this ---much information here about what Faith is and isn't

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!

Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "

"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"

Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen"
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I say ---Knowing and understanding this below is so very important to get -----

Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient.

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I say ---so you see here that the healing Jesus did for people they had to RECEIVE It Unto themselves and only then was their healing in their possession ------They Believed and Received their healing -----

Example -----I give you a free gift of Faith and you say-- OH Thank You --just set it on my table --------so your gift is there on your table it was freely given but until you receive that gift --it is not really yours -----it is there but you haven't claimed it by receiving it unto yourself -----so the free gift of Faith is there and it needs a positive response to pick it up and claim it as yours only then can it manifest what it is suppose to ------

There is a lot to know about faith --and it doesn't get enough attention as far as I am concerned ----people can't apply what they have no knowledge of ------

Many people feel frustrated when they pray for God's promises and never get them -----they think they don't have enough Faith -----when it is not their faith that is the problem --it is the fact they don't receive what is promised ------

Believe and receive -----don't doubt ------doubt blocks your request ------


View attachment 237537

I like what the Bible Hub you cited says about it, except for one point:

1. In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!

I don't get the Bible teaching that faith and belief aren't the same. I presume this statement is based on James 2:19 "the demons believe, and tremble." But James is using the idea of believing in this context the same as those people he is rebuking, just as he does with the idea of faith in 2:24. The way I see it, faith and belief is the same idea, except faith and belief are nouns and believe is a verb. It's the same Grk base.

So the problem with people who claim to have faith (or belief) in Christ, but don't obey Christ's words, is their definition of the word, or their usage of it, that is the main issue. Jesus called Satan "the father of lies," because it's exactly what he did from the beginning - the serpent in saying "you shall surely not die," he was using a different definition of the term "die" than the original context required (physical vs. spiritual). In the same way, many people use the term "faith" or "belief" differently than how the Bible describes it.

 

[TDidymas]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that because of its clarity and brevity, Heb 11:1 needs to be foundational.

It's foundational, since it's scripture. But my description in the OP is trying to make it clear in today's language. So I take it you were one of the "disagree"s? I'm wondering what you see wrong with it.

 

[TDidymas]

If you read the entire chapter 11 of Hebrews, you find that true faith is shown by acting on that faith. We need to determine if the Lord sees our actions or our thoughts when the Lord looks at our faith. Is Christianity a way of living or a way of understanding?

It's first a way of living. Yet, understanding helps a lot, because what goes on in our mind can help or hinder obedience to Christ.

 

[TDidymas]

I think the OP has some good things to say about faith, so I am not voting against all that he says. I am only pointing out what I think are a few weaknesses/deficiencies in the definition:

(1) The OP wrote: "It seems to me that faith is trusting in something" - This statement really says nothing about faith at all: The Greek word "pistis" means faith or trust. The verb form pisteuo means = to have faith, to believe, to trust. At least from undertstanding the Greek wording in the NT defining the English word "faith" as "trust" is no help at all.

(2) Faith is real and has evidence and substance (Hebrews 11:1) - it is not a wild stab in the dark at nothing! The OP used the following phrases when talking about faith "so faith is an assumption"; "which is the same as using our imagination" -- I would not use wording like this when speaking of Biblical faith.

Yes, I see how you think that the OP is inadequate, and I agree, since no amount of verbiage is adequate to describe a relationship with the Creator. More books than anyone can possibly read have been written on the subject.

But to clarify: in response to your (1), my definition is more basic (or generic) than what people think. When the Bible talks about faith, it's talking about faith in God and faith in Christ. So statements like "justified by faith" presumes that one is talking about faith in Christ, not just a generic faith. James actually uses the term in a generic manner in James 2, because the people he is rebuking are using it that way. In the apologetics realm, we have to have some agreement with unbelievers (because they are not believers in Christ) as to the definitions of the terms we are using, in order to reach them in some way. So, the difference between them and us is really that our faith is not in the same thing, or the same one. Both are convinced of something and suspicious of something else. Do you see my point?

And (2), it's all about what we have faith in (or who), because everyone has faith in something, even if it's merely their own opinion.

 

[Dino246]

If Heb. 11:1 is so clear, why is there so much controversy over it? Can you explain it in layman's language so that anyone can understand it? Also, please explain why the KJV translated elegchos "evidence," but modern translations render it "conviction" or "confidence"? Although some render it "proof". There is a big difference between evidence and conviction. Someone's action is evidence, and can point to either conviction or pretention. My point is that saying "clearly and plainly defined" leaves much to be desired.

Here is the verse in a few different English translations:

ESV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

HCSB: Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

KJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

MOUNCE: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

NASB: Now faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen.

NET: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

NIV: Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

NKJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

NRSV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

I agree: "proof", "conviction", "assurance", and "evidence" are not the same concepts in general usage, and I would consider "assurance" (as it is generally used) the weakest of all. However, general usage of terms is often misleading, and when trying to understand terms used in Scripture, we should look consider a concurrent dictionary definition... that is, where the term is not already defined in Scripture. Consider though, that "evidence" may carry the implication of "sufficient" which puts it in the same semantic family as "conviction" and "proof".

My point in saying it is "clearly and plainly defined" is not that the terms used are clear and plain (even though they are to me) but rather that the verse is clearly and plainly a definition. Therefore, regardless of the clarity of the definition, it is still a definition and as such is the only definition provided in Scripture for "faith". Further, the usage of "faith" in Scripture is completely consistent with this definition.

 

[Dino246]

It's foundational, since it's scripture. But my description in the OP is trying to make it clear in today's language. So I take it you were one of the "disagree"s? I'm wondering what you see wrong with it.

I normally don't vote in polls, and I don't recall voting in this one, but I do disagree with you, for reasons already stated.

 

[studentoftheword]

I don't get the Bible teaching that faith and belief aren't the same.

I get what you are saying in your post ---but here is the thing with these 2 words ------as far as scripture goes ---

an Example here ------in God's Promises ----


Philippians 4:19 Amp B
19 And my God will liberally supply (fill until full) your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

So you read this and you believe that God will supply all your needs because the word says it will ------but just believing that He will Supply all your needs because you read the Scripture is not enough to actually manifest your belief in your life by the written word ------So it is by and through your Faith which is the substance which will manifest your belief in the Promise of God supplying your needs ---

So Faith and belief are connected but there is a difference ----just believing is not receiving ---Faith receives what you believe ------

There is the written word of God------ and there is the Rhema word of God which is the Spoken Word -----Faith requires action ---so to manifest your belief you have to speak out your Faith ------God SAID then God SAW what He Said ----Faith brings your hope into this seen realm -------

You will always Speak what you have confidence (Faith) in ------

So if you believe Philippians 4:19 ----you will say ---I believe God WILL Supply all my needs ----and your Speaking your Faith in your belief of what is written ---Faith always requires a Positive response ------

Strong’s Definitions
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4487/kjv/tr/0-1/

ῥῆμα rhēma, hray'-mah; from G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command ----that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

1. any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

Proverbs 18:21

New International Version

21 The tongue has the power of life and death,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.

I say --------------Faith works in the Positive and Negative -----words are faith filled and will produce what we speak -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 10:9-10

English Standard Version

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


I say -------when you confess with your mouth your putting your Faith into action by speaking out your Faith and bringing Salvation to you -----

Believing your saved is not enough ----you have to confess it with your mouth --

Don't know if this helps you understand better ---belief and Faith are both necessary to manifest our hope into this seen world but Faith is beyond Belief when it comes to Manifesting God"s word ----

 

[TDidymas]

Does the Lord consider faith complete with no actions following it?

The four gospels are full of instructions about actions that follow faith, very little about the doctrine of faith alone.

Faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8 - by virtue of personal revelation from God to the individual), so that "God knows those who are His." When Abraham believed God (Gen. 3:15), it was without any actions, according to Paul's argument in Rom. 4 and Gal. 3. James doesn't disagree, but says that his faith was "perfected," that is, made complete by his action in Gen. 22 (about 15 years later). So the proof of his faith came after he was justified (reckoned as righteous), the same as it is with us. Therefore, the way I read scripture is that the Lord considers faith complete with no actions. Yet, since "God is in us, willing and doing His good pleasure," the actions of obeying Christ inevitably follow.

 

[TDidymas]

I normally don't vote in polls, and I don't recall voting in this one, but I do disagree with you, for reasons already stated.

But did you read my response and questions? I think you may have jumped to a conclusion to disagree without understanding what I wrote. Instead of just saying you disagree, why not explain what you think is wrong? Can you please quote what statement I wrote that you disagree with, and then explain why you disagree with it? Because what you wrote doesn't seem to disagree with what I wrote. The difference is the usage of the term "faith," which I am trying to explain.

 

[Dino246]

But did you read my response and questions? I think you may have jumped to a conclusion to disagree without understanding what I wrote. Instead of just saying you disagree, why not explain what you think is wrong? Can you please quote what statement I wrote that you disagree with, and then explain why you disagree with it? Because what you wrote doesn't seem to disagree with what I wrote. The difference is the usage of the term "faith," which I am trying to explain.

My apologies; I should have re-read your OP before commenting directly on it.

Generally, it appears that we agree. I stand on Hebrews 11:1, and everything else is unpacking or nuancing. Much of your OP is dealing with specific applications rather than starting with a basic definition; it would have benefited from one.

 

[TDidymas]

I get what you are saying in your post ---but here is the thing with these 2 words ------as far as scripture goes ---

an Example here ------in God's Promises ----


Philippians 4:19 Amp B
19 And my God will liberally supply (fill until full) your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

So you read this and you believe that God will supply all your needs because the word says it will ------but just believing that He will Supply all your needs because you read the Scripture is not enough to actually manifest your belief in your life by the written word ------So it is by and through your Faith which is the substance which will manifest your belief in the Promise of God supplying your needs ---

So Faith and belief are connected but there is a difference ----just believing is not receiving ---Faith receives what you believe ------

There is the written word of God------ and there is the Rhema word of God which is the Spoken Word -----Faith requires action ---so to manifest your belief you have to speak out your Faith ------God SAID then God SAW what He Said ----Faith brings your hope into this seen realm -------

You will always Speak what you have confidence (Faith) in ------

So if you believe Philippians 4:19 ----you will say ---I believe God WILL Supply all my needs ----and your Speaking your Faith in your belief of what is written ---Faith always requires a Positive response ------

Strong’s Definitions
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4487/kjv/tr/0-1/

ῥῆμα rhēma, hray'-mah; from G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command ----that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

1. any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

Proverbs 18:21

New International Version

21 The tongue has the power of life and death,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.

I say --------------Faith works in the Positive and Negative -----words are faith filled and will produce what we speak -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 10:9-10

English Standard Version

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

I say -------when you confess with your mouth your putting your Faith into action by speaking out your Faith and bringing Salvation to you -----

Believing your saved is not enough ----you have to confess it with your mouth --

Don't know if this helps you understand better ---belief and Faith are both necessary to manifest our hope into this seen world but Faith is beyond Belief when it comes to Manifesting God"s word ----

I don't know why you are capitalizing faith ("Faith"). So, no, it doesn't help me understand your point. I still don't agree that faith is "beyond belief." It sounds to me like you're saying that faith is what the NT teaches as saving faith in Christ, and belief is merely a generic faith, or perhaps a mental reasoning. I just don't see it that way. The terms "faith" and "believe" (which is the verb form of the noun "belief") are the same root word in the Grk, and the usage is the same. For example, 1 John 5:1 says "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Anyone who carefully studies scripture would surely agree that John's usage of the term "believe" is that same justifying faith in Christ that Paul explains in Rom. 5.

Therefore, it is making me wonder if you are confusing the Biblical usage of of the term "belief" with the common cultural usage of it. For example, 2 Thes. 2:13 says, "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." This term is pistis in Grk, and is the same word and usage as "faith."

So, faith is beyond feelings, but not beyond belief, because faith and belief are the same thing.