Do SDA believe Michael is God?

[posthuman]

No I explicitly mentioned who it was directly referring to.

no, you're pretending that Michael is not respecting authority and dignitaries, daring not to speak evil of them -- which is exactly what the chiasm indicates is the case, which is exactly what the literally immediate context indicates.

 

[posthuman]

Michael means one who is as God.

no, it does not.


the name Michael is a question, 'who is like God?'
it is not a statement of declaration.

Strong's 4130, 'mi' is an interrogative.

if you wanted to declare someone is like God, you would use 'asher' - a different word that can be translated 'who' but isn't an interrogative.

 

[posthuman]

Lucifer meant one who bears God's light.

no, it doesn't.

lucifer is a Latin word that Jerome put for the Hebrew helel, which is not clearly understood but based on etymology probably means 'one who shines' - from the word halal which means to shine.
lucifer was put there because it carries in Latin the meaning of shining, and because it was very often used to describe the planet Venus, the 'morning star' or 'daystar' or 'son of the morning' -- which is also directly referred to in Isaiah 14:12, the only place 'helel' is found in the scripture.


helel is written like this -- הֵילֵל
remember that Hebrew is read from right to left, and doesn't have written vowels - the little dots are indicators of what vowel should be read there. so the ל is like our letter 'l' - there are two of those at the end of helel, with a dot under the first indicating we should read an 'e' between them.

the word for God, El, is written like this -- אֵל

you can see in the ((strictly)) interrogative, 'who is like God?' / michael, how that אֵל is in the word: וּמִיכָאֵ֧ל
it is not in helel.

there is no hint in the language that helel has anything to do with God's light -- the word for God is simply not present there.
i.e. your private 'one who bears God's light' definition is completely spurious and clearly incorrect.

 

[posthuman]

the absence thereof would parallel in chiastic nature

from reading your diatribe, i think you do not actually understand what a chiasm is.

you are totally misusing the word. it's not describing similarities between two completely different texts, but internal structure of symmetry and repetition of ideas within a single text.

here's part of the wiki page explaining it:

Chiastic structure, or chiastic pattern, is a literary technique in narrative motifs and other textual passages. An example of chiastic structure would be two ideas, A and B, together with variants A' and B', being presented as A,B,B',A'. Chiastic structures that involve more components are sometimes called "ring structures", "ring compositions", or, in cases of very ambitious chiasmus, "onion-ring compositions". These may be regarded as chiasmus scaled up from words and clauses to larger segments of text.​

​

These often symmetrical patterns are commonly found in ancient literature such as the epic poetry of the Iliad and the Odyssey. Classicist Bruno Gentili describes this technique as "the cyclical, circular, or 'ring' pattern (ring composition). Here the idea that introduced a compositional section is repeated at its conclusion, so that the whole passage is framed by material of identical content".[1] Meanwhile, in classical prose, scholars often find chiastic narrative techniques in the Histories of Herodotus:​

​

"Herodotus frequently uses ring composition or 'epic regression' as a way of supplying background information for something discussed in the narrative. First an event is mentioned briefly, then its precedents are reviewed in reverse chronological order as far back as necessary; at that point the narrative reverses itself and moves forward in chronological order until the event in the main narrative line is reached again."[2]​

 

[posthuman]

Again, dealing with location and timing.

Jesus Christ is never not God. He is always God - He is the Creator of time and space, and is bound by neither.
this is like, rule #1 for interpreting scripture.

 

[posthuman]

You're all talk then for now, a blow hard? Put up or sit out.

sir, you have no idea who this elder sister of ours is, that you are maligning.

it is as though you have no respect for dignitary, but bring railing accusations against them in ignorance.

 

[posthuman]

You are in error and confused.

Again numerous OT and NT texts show that the Son of the Father/Michael only speaks when and what the Father gives Him to speak. He is the great eternal Mediator, the highest messenger between the Father and all the created universe.

Jude states that Michael/Son of God left the judgement of rebuke to His Father, and in that sense did rebuke, but did not once use a tactic of the devil in giving a railing accusation in return, as the devil does to Him.

previously discussed.

​

"get thee behind me, Satan!"​

- Jesus, with all authority and boldness​

​

" . . . "​

- Michael, knowing his place & daring not​

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Michael defers to God; Michael is not God.

Logically broken.

Jesus defers to God His Father, ergo (your logic) Jesus is not God (your logic).

Read Exodus 20:12. Jesus/Michael always honours His Father.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

"get thee behind me, Satan!"- Jesus, with all authority and boldness

I told you why. You purposefully close your eyes and ears.

John 5:27: "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

sir, you have no idea who this elder sister of ours is, ...

Smoke is smoke. She came in (on your beck and call) blowing hard, disagreeing with nearly all my recent posts and demonstrated no interest in addressing what I have presented in detail, all completely contrary to what scripture tells her to do. I don't care about her status in the world or her worldly education (I as Paul count my own learning and education of such things as dung). I only care that she is in physical pain, and I have the cure for her with me. I offer such to her freely and in all charity.

Prov 18:13: "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

If she wants to discuss languages, dictionaries, degrees, she can start her own thread. I'll join her there as time allows and show her by God's grace what real bible study is.

 

[posthuman]

Smoke is smoke. She came in (on your beck and call) blowing hard, disagreeing with nearly all my recent posts and demonstrated no interest in addressing what I have presented in detail, all completely contrary to what scripture tells her to do. I don't care about her status in the world or her worldly education (I as Paul count my own learning and education of such things as dung). I only care that she is in physical pain, and I have the cure for her with me. I offer such to her freely and in all charity.

Prov 18:13: "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

If she wants to discuss languages, dictionaries, degrees, she can start her own thread. I'll join her there as time allows and show her by God's grace what real bible study is.

as i told you,
you have no idea who she is.
we do. she has great respect and is greatly loved among the saints of God, with whom you presently sojourn.

guess why we are laughing?

 

[posthuman]

I told you why. You purposefully close your eyes and ears.

John 5:27: "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

the eternal, timeless throne of God is the throne of the Lamb. Revelation 22:3

Christ does not fear to offend Satan or speak out of place.

you are mixing the hypostatic union up with the eternal deity of our Lord.
He set aside His glory and took on the form of humankind, redeeming us, in order to teach the angelic host.
it is as Ezekiel digging through the wall.

Jesus Christ is never not God. at all times, all things are by Him, through Him, for Him, held together by Him and have their substance by Him.
all things.
including the created beings Michael & Satan.

His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His longsuffering great!

you should not denigrate the Son for the sake of your pet doctrine.

 

[TheLearner]

Start a new thread. Off topic, and I won't be taking up the space in this thread.

Hebrew was my first language from childhood and I corrected your misunderstanding of Daniel 10 --- the correct reading is "one of" NOT "first of".

 

[TheLearner]

No I explicitly mentioned who it was directly referring to.

Here is a simple outline of the book...

Greetings (Jde 1:1-2)
1. Purpose for writing (Jde 1:3-4)
2. Godâs judgments in time past (Jde 1:5-7)
3. Character and doom of false teachers (Jde 1:8-19)
4. Exhortations to build their faith (Jde 1:20-23)
Concluding doxology (Jde 1:24-25)
REVIEW QUESTIONS
Who is author of The Epistle Of Jude? (Jde 1:1)
Jude, brother of James (likely the half-brothers of Jesus, Mt 13:55)
Who were the recipients of this epistle?
"Those who were called", possibly Jewish Christians
When was it written?
Most date it between 67-70 A.D.
What has been suggested as its purpose?
To encourage his readers to contend earnestly for the faith that had been delivered to the saints
What has been suggested as its theme?
Contend earnestly for the faith
What are the main divisions of this epistle as outlined above?
Greetings (Jde 1:1-2)
Purpose for writing (Jde 1:3-4)
Godâs judgments in time past (Jde 1:5-7)
Character and doom of false teachers (Jde 1:8-19)
Exhortations to build their faith (Jde 1:20-23)
Concluding doxology (Jde 1:24-25)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/eo/Jde/Jde000.cfm

https://www.floralheightschurchofchrist.org/Class - Bible Books/Jude.pdf

 

[Angela53510]

i hope you get well soon; you're in my prayers ♥

Thanks so much! I was on this med from 2010-2013. It worked well, but the evaluation process was terrible in Alberta, but BC uses normal procedures.

I've really been bad for 3 years, on a biologic that wasn't working well. My left hand has become very deformed and lots of brain fog!

Prayers are coveted. Although the Health & Wealth gospel is totally unbiblical & bogus, God still heals our body, souls and minds within his will. I'm so grateful for all God has transformed and changed me!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

the eternal, timeless throne of God is the throne of the Lamb. Revelation 22:3

Christ does not fear to offend Satan or speak out of place.

you are mixing the hypostatic union up with the eternal deity of our Lord.
He set aside His glory and took on the form of humankind, redeeming us, in order to teach the angelic host.
it is as Ezekiel digging through the wall.

Jesus Christ is never not God. at all times, all things are by Him, through Him, for Him, held together by Him and have their substance by Him.
all things.
including the created beings Michael & Satan.

His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His longsuffering great!

you should not denigrate the Son for the sake of your pet doctrine.

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:2-6‬ ‭

 

[posthuman]

Hebrew was my first language from childhood and I corrected your misunderstanding of Daniel 10 --- the correct reading is "one of" NOT "first of".

i did not know that about you, friend
i apologize if me mentioning some of the people i know are familiar with Hebrew, offended you, out of my ignorance
i also thought immediately of @Mem after writing that, and @JaumeJ, realizing that what had come to mind was people i know are well studied, to the neglect of those i know who are native speakers.
i'm a blundering idiot
i do love you

 

[TheLearner]

Saul in those contexts sits on the throne.
David dares not disrespect his positional authority.

likewise, Michael dares not disrespect Satan, even while Satan is fallen, he still occupies a higher station in the angelic order.
this is in stark contrast with God, who is typified in those events by the prophet Samuel who does the anointing, and has zero qualms about speaking judgement against Saul or David to their very face, rebuking them directly.

Michael does not act as Samuel, in the analogous types.
Samuel ((typifying God)) does not respect the persons of human authority.
Michael, like David, ((typifying righteous created beings)) does - daring not to revile the one God has set as authority over him, even when that one is fallen and a murderer. Michael defers to God; Michael is not God.

What is "Michael dares not disrespect Satan, even while Satan is fallen, he still occupies a higher station in the angelic order. " based on?

 

[TheLearner]

no, it does not.


the name Michael is a question, 'who is like God?'
it is not a statement of declaration.

Strong's 4130, 'mi' is an interrogative.

if you wanted to declare someone is like God, you would use 'asher' - a different word that can be translated 'who' but isn't an interrogative.

My name means "God is Judge". Does anyone really believe that I am equal with Jesus at the Judgement?

 

[TheLearner]

"Raphael is one of the seven archangels who bring prayers before God (Tobit xii. 15), although he was not one of the six who buried Moses (Targ. Yer. Deut. xxxiv. 6). In Enoch, xx. 1-7 he is the second among the six or seven angels, Michael, as the most prominent, being placed in the Middle (see Jew. Encyc. i. 590, s.v. Angelology); yet in a papyrus devoted to magic, in which the seven archangels appear, Raphael ranks second, immediately after Michael (Wessely, "Griechischer Zauberpapyrus," ii. 65, line 38). "
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12570-raphael

"Name of an archangel. Of the four chief angels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel, who preside over the four quarters of the globe (Jensen, "Kosmologie der Babylonier," p. 163), and who are frequently grouped together, Uriel is generally, but not invariably, mentioned last, although in this quartet his name is frequently replaced by that of another angel, thus showing the diversity of his nature (e.g., Fanuel, Enoch, xl. 9; Aniel, Stübe, "Jüdisch-Babylonische Zaubertexte," p. 26, Halle, 1895; Nuriel, "Seder Gan 'Eden we-Gehinnom," in Jellinek, "B. H." iii. 138). He is likewise one of the seven archangels, being the prince of the angels and of Tartarus (Enoch, xx. 2, where his name is given first in the list of the angels). According to Kautzsch ("Apokryphen," ii. 250), Lusken ("Michael," p. 36), and others, Uriel is the angel of thunder and earthquake, and is, moreover, the divine messenger who warns the son of Lamech of the end of the world, and bids him hide (Enoch, x. 1-2); he appears in a like capacity in II Esd. iv., where he propounds three difficult problems to Ezra and instructs him. "
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14606-uriel

"
Four Angels of the Throne.
On the other hand, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Fanuel (Penuel) are introduced as "the four angels of the face of the Lord." After the watchers ("those that sleep not") have been described (ibid. xxxix. 12, 13) as chanting the "Holy, holy, holy!" and mutually responding, "Blessed be the name of the Lord!" the following passage occurs (ibid. xl. 2):

...

Then again mention is made of seven classes of angels (Enoch, lxi. 10 et seq.): (1) the cherubim,(2) seraphim, (3) ofanim, (4) all the angels of power, (5) principalities, (6) the Elect One (Messiah), and (7) the (elementary) powers of the earth and the water."
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1747-arelim#anchor17