'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
#1
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us. I have heard 'sinner's prayers' that seem to be based on that assumption... but are probably just from people who do not think the connection between their doctrine and the words they speak through.
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.

I see there is a context to Paul's explanation of whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is some context in the passage. Earlier in the passage, he talks about believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead--- the heart believes unto righteousness. Paul wrote earlier that Christ rose for our justification. And he says to confess that Jesus is Lord. Confession is made unto salvation.

Then, a bit later, this quote that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....and how shall they hear without a preacher.... then talk of preaching good news, obeying the Gospel and a reference to Isaiah 53 which tells about Christ's sufferings.

Any other gospel is not the gospel given to Paul by Christ.
Receiving Jesus as your Lord and saviour is not the gospel.
Calling upon the name of Jesus is NOT the gospel.
All these man made gospel cannot save one single soul.
John 1 says that as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. So some people take that verse and say, "Pray this prayer to receive Christ.....if you believe it you are saved." There is no mention of the cross or the resurrection. I think some preachers who do this, if you asked them if someone needed to believe Jesus died and rose again, or died for our sins and rose again to be saved would say 'yes.' But they have seen the quick-and-easy prayer modeled so much it feels natural. We are creatures of ritual and tradition whether we like those words or not. People who hate the word 'religion' tend to be religious themselves.

Reductionist Approach to the Gospel and Evangelism or a 'Complete View'
A reductionist viewpoint might look at a verse and say 'There is a promise of salvation here, so let's just use this.' Or it may lead to stripping of parts of those verses. For example, if there is a verse that talks about becoming a son of God to them that 'receive Him', they may assume that 'receive Him' means to follow the ritual they have seen of repeating a prayer, rather than the idea of knowing Who He is and believing that He is Who He says He is, understanding His role, etc.

In Luke 24, Jesus said that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in Christ's name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. Peter said in a message in Acts that a man had been healed through faith in Jesus' name and that there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved. So should we just preach salvation and teach people to claim that promise, or do we assume there is a broader context and we should consider other teachings about salvation? Do we point out that Jesus' words came write after a verse that refers to what was written that Christ should suffer and rise again?

Do we focus specifically on Romans 10:9-10 and declare people saved if they believed a confession (or confession in the form of a prayer) that says that Jesus is Lord and that they believe He rose from the dead? Or do we think this is in the context of a whole epistle which also mentions Christ dying as a sacrifice.... a propitiation? Do we leave out the cross and just mention the resurrection. Romans 10 does quote a line references Isaiah 53. Romans 6 also talks about those who are baptized into Jesus Christ Jesus being baptized into His death and that they shall also be in the likeness of the resurrection.

Water Baptism
When we consider the actual __practice___ of the apostles and the early church in evangelism, water baptism plays an important role. Luke recorded how Christ said that it was written that Christ should suffer, rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached. Yet he records how Peter preached and that after explaining the events of Pentecost from scripture, preaching that they had killed Jesus and that He rose, ascended, and is Lord and Christ, he told his listeners to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins. The response Peter wanted was repentance and he offered forgiveness of sins through baptism.

And we see Paul tell of his own baptism in Acts 22. The man the Lord sent after he was blinded at his experience with Christ, Ananias told him Why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins.

And Paul's treatment of baptism is also relevant here. Not only does he connect it to the resurrection in Romans 6, but we also see in Colossians 2 that his readers were baptized into Christ's and raised with Christ through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Peter wrote baptism now saves you, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (I Peter. 3:21) Similar to Colossians 2 and Romans 6, Peter says baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by faith...and baptism saves you as an answer of a good conscience toward God. In Colossians 2, baptism is to be done in faith.

In Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, Peter associates baptism with forgiveness of sin, and Ananias in Acts 22 associates it with washing away sin and calling upon the name of the Lord.

What I have seen is those with a 'reductionist' approach to the Gospel sometimes take a few verses and ignore the rest, building a doctrine of it. Romans 10:9-10 because THE way to preach salvation--confessing Jesus a Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead, and if someone else uses the Acts 2:38's 'method', he isn't saved. Why is one 'method' from one verse better than another one? Shouldn't we love and accept all scripture.

The doctrinal question is whether these verses are intended to be interpreted out of context? For example, someone might believe that an individual can be saved by just hearing Romans 10:9-10, but without hearing or believing that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who died for our sins. But isn't the context importance? Paul has already talked about the death of Christ earlier in Romans. The chapter also alludes to a chapter of Isaiah which talked about Christ's suffering.

In Acts 2, Peter does not explain that Christ's death was for our sins. He tells his audience that they had killed the Prince of life. Maybe the audience got saved without being told that, or maybe we are to understand that Peter said a lot more that day and that we are getting a truncated version... and we are supposed to understand from the larger context of Christian teachings or writings the overall gospel message.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#2
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us. I have heard 'sinner's prayers' that seem to be based on that assumption... but are probably just from people who do not think the connection between their doctrine and the words they speak through.
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.

I see there is a context to Paul's explanation of whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is some context in the passage. Earlier in the passage, he talks about believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead--- the heart believes unto righteousness. Paul wrote earlier that Christ rose for our justification. And he says to confess that Jesus is Lord. Confession is made unto salvation.

Then, a bit later, this quote that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....and how shall they hear without a preacher.... then talk of preaching good news, obeying the Gospel and a reference to Isaiah 53 which tells about Christ's sufferings.



John 1 says that as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. So some people take that verse and say, "Pray this prayer to receive Christ.....if you believe it you are saved." There is no mention of the cross or the resurrection. I think some preachers who do this, if you asked them if someone needed to believe Jesus died and rose again, or died for our sins and rose again to be saved would say 'yes.' But they have seen the quick-and-easy prayer modeled so much it feels natural. We are creatures of ritual and tradition whether we like those words or not. People who hate the word 'religion' tend to be religious themselves.

Reductionist Approach to the Gospel and Evangelism or a 'Complete View'
A reductionist viewpoint might look at a verse and say 'There is a promise of salvation here, so let's just use this.' Or it may lead to stripping of parts of those verses. For example, if there is a verse that talks about becoming a son of God to them that 'receive Him', they may assume that 'receive Him' means to follow the ritual they have seen of repeating a prayer, rather than the idea of knowing Who He is and believing that He is Who He says He is, understanding His role, etc.

In Luke 24, Jesus said that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in Christ's name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. Peter said in a message in Acts that a man had been healed through faith in Jesus' name and that there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved. So should we just preach salvation and teach people to claim that promise, or do we assume there is a broader context and we should consider other teachings about salvation? Do we point out that Jesus' words came write after a verse that refers to what was written that Christ should suffer and rise again?

Do we focus specifically on Romans 10:9-10 and declare people saved if they believed a confession (or confession in the form of a prayer) that says that Jesus is Lord and that they believe He rose from the dead? Or do we think this is in the context of a whole epistle which also mentions Christ dying as a sacrifice.... a propitiation? Do we leave out the cross and just mention the resurrection. Romans 10 does quote a line references Isaiah 53. Romans 6 also talks about those who are baptized into Jesus Christ Jesus being baptized into His death and that they shall also be in the likeness of the resurrection.

Water Baptism
When we consider the actual __practice___ of the apostles and the early church in evangelism, water baptism plays an important role. Luke recorded how Christ said that it was written that Christ should suffer, rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached. Yet he records how Peter preached and that after explaining the events of Pentecost from scripture, preaching that they had killed Jesus and that He rose, ascended, and is Lord and Christ, he told his listeners to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins. The response Peter wanted was repentance and he offered forgiveness of sins through baptism.

And we see Paul tell of his own baptism in Acts 22. The man the Lord sent after he was blinded at his experience with Christ, Ananias told him Why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins.

And Paul's treatment of baptism is also relevant here. Not only does he connect it to the resurrection in Romans 6, but we also see in Colossians 2 that his readers were baptized into Christ's and raised with Christ through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Peter wrote baptism now saves you, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (I Peter. 3:21) Similar to Colossians 2 and Romans 6, Peter says baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by faith...and baptism saves you as an answer of a good conscience toward God. In Colossians 2, baptism is to be done in faith.

In Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, Peter associates baptism with forgiveness of sin, and Ananias in Acts 22 associates it with washing away sin and calling upon the name of the Lord.

What I have seen is those with a 'reductionist' approach to the Gospel sometimes take a few verses and ignore the rest, building a doctrine of it. Romans 10:9-10 because THE way to preach salvation--confessing Jesus a Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead, and if someone else uses the Acts 2:38's 'method', he isn't saved. Why is one 'method' from one verse better than another one? Shouldn't we love and accept all scripture.

The doctrinal question is whether these verses are intended to be interpreted out of context? For example, someone might believe that an individual can be saved by just hearing Romans 10:9-10, but without hearing or believing that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who died for our sins. But isn't the context importance? Paul has already talked about the death of Christ earlier in Romans. The chapter also alludes to a chapter of Isaiah which talked about Christ's suffering.

In Acts 2, Peter does not explain that Christ's death was for our sins. He tells his audience that they had killed the Prince of life. Maybe the audience got saved without being told that, or maybe we are to understand that Peter said a lot more that day and that we are getting a truncated version... and we are supposed to understand from the larger context of Christian teachings or writings the overall gospel message.
There is just so much brilliance in this writing. I really, really like how you have presented your case. The format is beyond stellar.

I wanted to ask of your opinion, though. Do you believe that if no physical water is present, such as in a desert or perhaps on the side of Mt Everest where not enough water could be offered for a baptism . . . these people could not receive Eternal Life?
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,117
113
U.S.A.
#3
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us. I have heard 'sinner's prayers' that seem to be based on that assumption... but are probably just from people who do not think the connection between their doctrine and the words they speak through.
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.

I see there is a context to Paul's explanation of whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is some context in the passage. Earlier in the passage, he talks about believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead--- the heart believes unto righteousness. Paul wrote earlier that Christ rose for our justification. And he says to confess that Jesus is Lord. Confession is made unto salvation.

Then, a bit later, this quote that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....and how shall they hear without a preacher.... then talk of preaching good news, obeying the Gospel and a reference to Isaiah 53 which tells about Christ's sufferings.



John 1 says that as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. So some people take that verse and say, "Pray this prayer to receive Christ.....if you believe it you are saved." There is no mention of the cross or the resurrection. I think some preachers who do this, if you asked them if someone needed to believe Jesus died and rose again, or died for our sins and rose again to be saved would say 'yes.' But they have seen the quick-and-easy prayer modeled so much it feels natural. We are creatures of ritual and tradition whether we like those words or not. People who hate the word 'religion' tend to be religious themselves.

Reductionist Approach to the Gospel and Evangelism or a 'Complete View'
A reductionist viewpoint might look at a verse and say 'There is a promise of salvation here, so let's just use this.' Or it may lead to stripping of parts of those verses. For example, if there is a verse that talks about becoming a son of God to them that 'receive Him', they may assume that 'receive Him' means to follow the ritual they have seen of repeating a prayer, rather than the idea of knowing Who He is and believing that He is Who He says He is, understanding His role, etc.

In Luke 24, Jesus said that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in Christ's name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. Peter said in a message in Acts that a man had been healed through faith in Jesus' name and that there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved. So should we just preach salvation and teach people to claim that promise, or do we assume there is a broader context and we should consider other teachings about salvation? Do we point out that Jesus' words came write after a verse that refers to what was written that Christ should suffer and rise again?

Do we focus specifically on Romans 10:9-10 and declare people saved if they believed a confession (or confession in the form of a prayer) that says that Jesus is Lord and that they believe He rose from the dead? Or do we think this is in the context of a whole epistle which also mentions Christ dying as a sacrifice.... a propitiation? Do we leave out the cross and just mention the resurrection. Romans 10 does quote a line references Isaiah 53. Romans 6 also talks about those who are baptized into Jesus Christ Jesus being baptized into His death and that they shall also be in the likeness of the resurrection.

Water Baptism
When we consider the actual __practice___ of the apostles and the early church in evangelism, water baptism plays an important role. Luke recorded how Christ said that it was written that Christ should suffer, rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached. Yet he records how Peter preached and that after explaining the events of Pentecost from scripture, preaching that they had killed Jesus and that He rose, ascended, and is Lord and Christ, he told his listeners to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins. The response Peter wanted was repentance and he offered forgiveness of sins through baptism.

And we see Paul tell of his own baptism in Acts 22. The man the Lord sent after he was blinded at his experience with Christ, Ananias told him Why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins.

And Paul's treatment of baptism is also relevant here. Not only does he connect it to the resurrection in Romans 6, but we also see in Colossians 2 that his readers were baptized into Christ's and raised with Christ through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Peter wrote baptism now saves you, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (I Peter. 3:21) Similar to Colossians 2 and Romans 6, Peter says baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by faith...and baptism saves you as an answer of a good conscience toward God. In Colossians 2, baptism is to be done in faith.

In Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, Peter associates baptism with forgiveness of sin, and Ananias in Acts 22 associates it with washing away sin and calling upon the name of the Lord.

What I have seen is those with a 'reductionist' approach to the Gospel sometimes take a few verses and ignore the rest, building a doctrine of it. Romans 10:9-10 because THE way to preach salvation--confessing Jesus a Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead, and if someone else uses the Acts 2:38's 'method', he isn't saved. Why is one 'method' from one verse better than another one? Shouldn't we love and accept all scripture.

The doctrinal question is whether these verses are intended to be interpreted out of context? For example, someone might believe that an individual can be saved by just hearing Romans 10:9-10, but without hearing or believing that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who died for our sins. But isn't the context importance? Paul has already talked about the death of Christ earlier in Romans. The chapter also alludes to a chapter of Isaiah which talked about Christ's suffering.

In Acts 2, Peter does not explain that Christ's death was for our sins. He tells his audience that they had killed the Prince of life. Maybe the audience got saved without being told that, or maybe we are to understand that Peter said a lot more that day and that we are getting a truncated version... and we are supposed to understand from the larger context of Christian teachings or writings the overall gospel message.




Wherever you got that post you've pasted,I would NOT have used.
It brings into question
the person who wrote those words status with God!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
#4
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us. I have heard 'sinner's prayers' that seem to be based on that assumption... but are probably just from people who do not think the connection between their doctrine and the words they speak through.
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.

I see there is a context to Paul's explanation of whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is some context in the passage. Earlier in the passage, he talks about believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead--- the heart believes unto righteousness. Paul wrote earlier that Christ rose for our justification. And he says to confess that Jesus is Lord. Confession is made unto salvation.

Then, a bit later, this quote that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....and how shall they hear without a preacher.... then talk of preaching good news, obeying the Gospel and a reference to Isaiah 53 which tells about Christ's sufferings.



John 1 says that as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. So some people take that verse and say, "Pray this prayer to receive Christ.....if you believe it you are saved." There is no mention of the cross or the resurrection. I think some preachers who do this, if you asked them if someone needed to believe Jesus died and rose again, or died for our sins and rose again to be saved would say 'yes.' But they have seen the quick-and-easy prayer modeled so much it feels natural. We are creatures of ritual and tradition whether we like those words or not. People who hate the word 'religion' tend to be religious themselves.

Reductionist Approach to the Gospel and Evangelism or a 'Complete View'
A reductionist viewpoint might look at a verse and say 'There is a promise of salvation here, so let's just use this.' Or it may lead to stripping of parts of those verses. For example, if there is a verse that talks about becoming a son of God to them that 'receive Him', they may assume that 'receive Him' means to follow the ritual they have seen of repeating a prayer, rather than the idea of knowing Who He is and believing that He is Who He says He is, understanding His role, etc.

In Luke 24, Jesus said that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in Christ's name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. Peter said in a message in Acts that a man had been healed through faith in Jesus' name and that there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved. So should we just preach salvation and teach people to claim that promise, or do we assume there is a broader context and we should consider other teachings about salvation? Do we point out that Jesus' words came write after a verse that refers to what was written that Christ should suffer and rise again?

Do we focus specifically on Romans 10:9-10 and declare people saved if they believed a confession (or confession in the form of a prayer) that says that Jesus is Lord and that they believe He rose from the dead? Or do we think this is in the context of a whole epistle which also mentions Christ dying as a sacrifice.... a propitiation? Do we leave out the cross and just mention the resurrection. Romans 10 does quote a line references Isaiah 53. Romans 6 also talks about those who are baptized into Jesus Christ Jesus being baptized into His death and that they shall also be in the likeness of the resurrection.

Water Baptism
When we consider the actual __practice___ of the apostles and the early church in evangelism, water baptism plays an important role. Luke recorded how Christ said that it was written that Christ should suffer, rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached. Yet he records how Peter preached and that after explaining the events of Pentecost from scripture, preaching that they had killed Jesus and that He rose, ascended, and is Lord and Christ, he told his listeners to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins. The response Peter wanted was repentance and he offered forgiveness of sins through baptism.

And we see Paul tell of his own baptism in Acts 22. The man the Lord sent after he was blinded at his experience with Christ, Ananias told him Why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins.

And Paul's treatment of baptism is also relevant here. Not only does he connect it to the resurrection in Romans 6, but we also see in Colossians 2 that his readers were baptized into Christ's and raised with Christ through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Peter wrote baptism now saves you, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (I Peter. 3:21) Similar to Colossians 2 and Romans 6, Peter says baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by faith...and baptism saves you as an answer of a good conscience toward God. In Colossians 2, baptism is to be done in faith.

In Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, Peter associates baptism with forgiveness of sin, and Ananias in Acts 22 associates it with washing away sin and calling upon the name of the Lord.

What I have seen is those with a 'reductionist' approach to the Gospel sometimes take a few verses and ignore the rest, building a doctrine of it. Romans 10:9-10 because THE way to preach salvation--confessing Jesus a Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead, and if someone else uses the Acts 2:38's 'method', he isn't saved. Why is one 'method' from one verse better than another one? Shouldn't we love and accept all scripture.

The doctrinal question is whether these verses are intended to be interpreted out of context? For example, someone might believe that an individual can be saved by just hearing Romans 10:9-10, but without hearing or believing that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who died for our sins. But isn't the context importance? Paul has already talked about the death of Christ earlier in Romans. The chapter also alludes to a chapter of Isaiah which talked about Christ's suffering.

In Acts 2, Peter does not explain that Christ's death was for our sins. He tells his audience that they had killed the Prince of life. Maybe the audience got saved without being told that, or maybe we are to understand that Peter said a lot more that day and that we are getting a truncated version... and we are supposed to understand from the larger context of Christian teachings or writings the overall gospel message.
amen we should never rely on a verse or two and use the verse or two to erase the rest of what is taught Paul is saying “ the first thing I taught you is about the death for our sins and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures

he’s referring to the ot writings of the prophets which told us Christ would come and speak Gods word of salvation and the. Would suffer and die bearing our sins and the. Would be raised up from the dead and then would be raised up to the throne In heaven

and if we received his word we would be saved by his blood

Paul of course taught all of those points based on what Jesus already had preached we should foret believe the gospel and thy en Paul’s writings are invaluable because we can’t stray into
One verse theology
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
1,150
113
New Zealand
#5
The belief that Jesus died and rose again and that by believing in Him a person received everlasting life is in Roman's 10:9-10 by the meaning of the words within the passage.

Confessing and believing... it's in the passage. There is quite a lot to these words. So I believe the verses can be used to present a full gospel.

Altho it is still better to put it with verses in John like 3:16 and John 5:24.

Baptism tho would be a seperate thing. That's not how some one receives eternal life.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#6
That's not how some one receives eternal life.
And this is what it comes down to . . . [how] does a person receive Eternal Life?

To accept Christ as our Lord and Savior means that we accept [how] Jesus procures Eternal Life in His Holy Elect. If we don't agree with all that is required of Salvation, then we cannot accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. And there are implications to the process of Salvation, for the genuine process of True Salvation includes a Transformation. And this is why pastors of today do not teach the True Gospel, for if they did, then Transformation would be prime evidence of True Salvation. Now, if there is to be an expected Transformation, then obedience is expected to be ascertained within the life of a new convert. And if this Transformation does not take place, then a "member" may very well be removed from a church.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2, 5-7 NLT - "I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you--something that even pagans don't do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship. ... 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns. 6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don't you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old "yeast" by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us."

But what pastors remove wickedness from their churches? And what if they did? Would the collection plate be as full so as to pay the man's rent, food bills, college fees for his children? Retirement? Is this why pastors of today to not teach the True Gospel? That if they did, there would only be a handful of people to refer to as a flock?

Salvation is the same for both Jew and Gentile . . . it is a Change of Heart produced by the Holy Spirit. And if there is a Change of Heart, this clearly implies a Transformation. Where a person changes the way they think, their behavior is certain to follow:

Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#7
Why get bogged down with verbage when we already know much is lost in translation? In fact, that's the reason why we use the Bible to interpret the Bible, in context and as a whole.

God Himself paid the ultimate price for the redemption of His own creation, because only God could redeem us. Now, in context and as a whole, is there any verse in the Bible that contradicts God's work?

Isn't faith and evidence of the Spirit, which are gifts of God, what is most important?
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#8
Why get bogged down with verbage when we already know much is lost in translation? In fact, that's the reason why we use the Bible to interpret the Bible, in context and as a whole.

God Himself paid the ultimate price for the redemption of His own creation, because only God could redeem us. Now, in context and as a whole, is there any verse in the Bible that contradicts God's work?

Isn't faith and evidence of the Spirit, which are gifts of God, what is most important?
I like it. Well said.

[Eze 7:13 ESV] "For the seller shall not return to what he has sold, while they live. For the vision concerns all their multitude; it shall not turn back; and because of his iniquity, none can maintain his life."

As you said, we cannot redeem ourselves. Only the Lord can generate rebirth.
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#9
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.
Yes, I believe so. I know some Christians who recognize Jesus as God, pray to Jesus, and believe He still lives (thereby confirming He rose) but do not understand atonement.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#10
Yes, I believe so. I know some Christians who recognize Jesus as God, pray to Jesus, and believe He still lives (thereby confirming He rose) but do not understand atonement.
Do they understand that the Sinful Nature is cut away by Christ which produces a change of behavior? This is what no one taught me, thus I lived in horrific sin for decades, only becoming worse and worse, yet I fully believed that "nothing could separate me from the Love of Christ." But if I had a full understanding of what the Gospel actually is, then I would have understood that if Christ had come while I was "naked," He and I would have had the below conversation:

Matthew 7:22-23 KJV - "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

To be "known" by Christ is to be Circumcised by Christ. Therefore, we must seek the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ if we want to Live Eternally with Him.

The Purpose of Christ is to procure the Work of Christ and this Work of Christ procures a most Holy Effect in the Life of His Holy Elect.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#11
Why get bogged down with verbage when we already know much is lost in translation? In fact, that's the reason why we use the Bible to interpret the Bible, in context and as a whole.

God Himself paid the ultimate price for the redemption of His own creation, because only God could redeem us. Now, in context and as a whole, is there any verse in the Bible that contradicts God's work?

Isn't faith and evidence of the Spirit, which are gifts of God, what is most important?
One may say why be bogged down in words.

It is a very basic truth we are taught by the Holy Spirit.

On my pillow, thinking a bit last night, it came strongly to my, heart soul and mind, that when there is aything in the Word we cannot understand, we must let our faith fill that void of understanding andd all will be well and at peace.
 
May 22, 2020
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#12
The belief that Jesus died and rose again and that by believing in Him a person received everlasting life is in Roman's 10:9-10 by the meaning of the words within the passage.

Confessing and believing... it's in the passage. There is quite a lot to these words. So I believe the verses can be used to present a full gospel.

Altho it is still better to put it with verses in John like 3:16 and John 5:24.

Baptism tho would be a seperate thing. That's not how some one receives eternal life.
I fail to find scripture that gives any validation in...... salvation without baptism. It just isn't there.
There are 5-6 new age religion teachings that. ...if followed....will cost you your eternal salvation....it is part of how one receives eternal salvation. The Bible says so...directly.
 
Feb 24, 2022
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#13
There is just so much brilliance in this writing. I really, really like how you have presented your case. The format is beyond stellar.

I wanted to ask of your opinion, though. Do you believe that if no physical water is present, such as in a desert or perhaps on the side of Mt Everest where not enough water could be offered for a baptism . . . these people could not receive Eternal Life?
Water baptism is a ritual drawn from the Torah, that the priest must bathe and be cleansed before they enter into the Temple of God. If one is willing and prepared to be baptized, then God will lead him and the pastor to a place where physical water is present and sufficient for immersion. God did it for the Ethiopian Eunuch in a desert so he can be baptized by Phillip. That's a sign. What matters is the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, that day of epiphany in you life. That's what really puts your life on a new trajectory led by the Holy Spirit.

Also, interestingly, everyone born alive has experienced both baptism by water and baptism by spirit - water being amniotic fluid in the womb, and spirit being the first cry. That's what Nicodimus had in mind.
 
May 22, 2020
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#14
Water baptism is a ritual drawn from the Torah, that the priest must bathe and be cleansed before they enter into the Temple of God. If one is willing and prepared to be baptized, then God will lead him and the pastor to a place where physical water is present and sufficient for immersion. God did it for the Ethiopian Eunuch in a desert so he can be baptized by Phillip. That's a sign. What matters is the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, that day of epiphany in you life. That's what really puts your life on a new trajectory led by the Holy Spirit.

Also, interestingly, everyone born alive has experienced both baptism by water and baptism by spirit - water being amniotic fluid in the womb, and spirit being the first cry. That's what Nicodimus had in mind.
The Bible explains the difference of baptism under the OT vs NT.
Under the OT it was used for body/skin cleansing ..........and under the NT is for sin cleansing along with repentance to purify the soul.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#15
I fail to find scripture that gives any validation in...... salvation without baptism. It just isn't there.
There are 5-6 new age religion teachings that. ...if followed....will cost you your eternal salvation....
it is part of how one receives eternal salvation. The Bible says so...directly.
Yes... baptism of the Holy Spirit... the washing of the Word, Who is Himself, Jesus Christ: the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit; we are born again through the living and abiding Word of God; this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. He saves us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.



 
Feb 24, 2022
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#16
The Bible explains the difference of baptism under the OT vs NT.
Under the OT it was used for body/skin cleansing ..........and under the NT is for sin cleansing along with repentance to purify the soul.
Yeah, cleansing of the body and the soul, two sides of the same coin.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#19
Once again Peldom disagrees with Scripture...
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#20
I fail to find scripture that gives any validation in...... salvation without baptism. It just isn't there.
There are 5-6 new age religion teachings that. ...if followed....will cost you your eternal salvation....it is part of how one receives eternal salvation. The Bible says so...directly.
yes the only thing that promises remission of sins is baptism for repentance and remission of sins.

receiving the Holy Spirit doesn’t promise to remit our sins baptism in water because we believe the promise does even if we receive the spirit we’re still
Meant to get baptized for remission of sins .

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

…..Peter said ……Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism in Jesus name is for remission of our sins and inclusion into the atonement his death for our sins and resurrection to newness of life having our sins left behind.

When we go under the water we’re being buried with him and when we rise up from the water we’re being raised up with our sins being remitted

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It lets us start to believe we died with him because we did what he said to do to be saved

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬