The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[riverhooks]

You need a new Bible...may I ship you one?

Geesscchh!

The question is not if there will be a rapture but when will the rapture be?
“Rapture”as you well know refers the catching up to meet the Lord in the air of living believers. Context as follows. 1Thessalonians 4: 15-18 for this we say onto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which sleep for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord wherefore for comfort one another with these words. Timing ? The first resurrection , namely The Second Coming of Christ. Open , loud , and noisy. On the same day. One event.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

First I went to the Greek to see what order and words they used there, then I checked out the interlinear and checked out what they had to say there and then the lexicon and not one of those used this word you are saying MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE. Could you please explain how we are seeing two completely different things here?

As in NO BUT just ands and so none of them have this separation you are pointing out. Where are you getting your information from, if I might ask?

And she brought forth a son, male who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron and was caught up the child of her to God and to the throne of Him.

and they all have 'caught up'


5207. huios ►
Strong's Concordance
huios: a son
Original Word: υἱός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: huios
Phonetic Spelling: (hwee-os')
Definition: a son
Usage: a son, descendent.
HELPS Word-studies
5207 hyiós – properly, a son (by birth or adoption); (figuratively) anyone sharing the same nature as their Father. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ (the work of the eternal Son). In the NT, 5207 /hyiós ("son") equally refers to female believers (Gal 3:28).

5207 /hyiós ("son") emphasizes likeness of the believer to the heavenly Father, i.e. resembling His character more and more by living in faith ("God's inwrought persuasons," see 4102 /pístis).

5207 /hyiós ("son") highlights the (legal) right to the Father's inheritance, i.e. as the believer lives in conformity with the Father's nature (purpose).


730. arrén ►
Strong's Concordance
arrén: male, man.
Original Word: ἄρσην, ενος, εν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: arrén
Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-hrane)
Definition: male, man
Usage: male.


726. harpazó ►
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).


5043. teknon ►
Strong's Concordance
teknon: a child (of either sex)
Original Word: τέκνον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: teknon
Phonetic Spelling: (tek'-non)
Definition: a child (of either sex)
Usage: a child, descendent, inhabitant.
HELPS Word-studies
5043 téknon – properly, a child; (figuratively) anyone living in full dependence on the heavenly Father, i.e. fully (willingly) relying upon the Lord in glad submission. This prompts God to transform them into His likeness.

5043 /téknon ("a child living in willing dependence") illustrates how we must all live in utter dependence upon the Lord (moment-by-moment), drawing guidance (care, nurture) from our heavenly Father. 5043 (téknon) emphasizes the childlike (not childish) attitude of heart that willingly (gladly) submits to the Father's plan. We profoundly learn this as we are receptive to Christ speaking His rhēma-word within to impart faith (cf. Ro 8:16,17 with Ro 10:17, Gk text).

I really like that

The commentator was using the
ESV. The ESV, RSV, NRSV, CJB and WNT are the only translations to use ‘but’ instead of ‘and.’

5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, (ESV Rev. 12:5).

“Of the 99 times that 'tekna' is used in 91 verses in New Testament, only once is it used for Jesus, and that as a child (Lk. 2:28). [Even this usage was quoting Mary's words]. Eighteen times it refers directly or indirectly to Israel's children; 31 times to sons, daughters, and children in general; 30 times to the sons of God, children of God, light or believers or the Church in general; and 11 times by Paul to refer to his spiritual sons in Christ." (John A. Abent, "Signs in the Heavens" p 270).(John A. Abent, "Signs in the Heavens" p 270).

“John clearly is referring to Jesus Christ as the man-child in verse 5, but if he never called or even referred to Jesus as 'teknon,' then who is 'her child' referring to in the same verse?”

(Rev 12:5 KJV) "... and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

“The english word "caught" has been translated from the Greek word 'harpazo' (Strong's 726), which means "to seize." We'll see it translated as "catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)."

A word study of the ‘Man-Child’ and ‘Child’ of Rev 12:5 can be found here:

https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/09/man-child-vs-child-word-study-of-rev-125.html?m=1

 

[riverhooks]

There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.


At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.


There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why did the Bible omit any description of glorified believers being taken to heaven?

Great!! Finally someone who knows of Scripture that shows Jesus taking glorifiede believers to heaven. Thank you!!


Hm. Where, exactly, do you find anything about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven here? I am not seeing any words that can mean that.

I have been reading through the NT monthly for nearly 2 decades. So I'm very familiar with 1 Cor 15. And I've never yet found any reference to Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Or even just glorified believers going to heaven.

v.48 simply shows that there are unbelievers (earthy) and believers (heavenly).

I don’t either . Just the scenario of 1 Thessalonians 4 The catching up of living believers being changed in an instant meeting with the Lord in air, at the first resurrection with the dead in Christ rising first as you no . I is so obvious I might be tempted to say there is no rapture but for their sakes I know they are referring to the catching up of the living believers to meet the Lord in the air. No glorified bodies going to heaven though.

 

[Absolutely]

He went up (to Heaven) FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES

["likewise"/"IN LIKE MANNER" (as they SAW Him traveling INTO HEAVEN, Acts 1)... He will descend TO the mount of Olives, as in Zech14:4 at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH]


In the RAPTURE, it is HE who will DESCEND TO (the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR* location);
whereas WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *ONLY*) who will be SNATCHED UP TO that location (not "TO the mount of Olives")...

...see the difference??










[besides this ^ ... BETWEEN His "I ASCEND [active]" (John 20:17) ON "FIRSTFRUIT" His Resurrection Day (Lev23:10-12)... and His LATER *VISIBLE* ascension in Acts 1... there was a PERIOD of "FORTY DAYS"... see what I mean??]

At some point, when "like manner" enters your dialogue, the entire dynamic changes.

That is what was said; "like manner"

Your model is NOT "like manner" at all.

You did not hear a word i said, nor did you address " like manner" seriously.

You think eliminating all that is obvious, and framing, " like manner" , as ....."up vs down."

Like manner!!!!
1) Ahem, feet not on the planet
2)Solo
3)No army
4)No horses
5)No war
6)Not tied to 10 acres of land.
7)No killing
8)No ac
9) No destroyed planet.
10) Only his believers saw it, so the dynamic of ;" every eye shall see him" is missing.

All you need to do is look at the obvious.
"Like manner" is NOWHERE in your model.
Interesting that you take a verse and somehow you need it to defy the obvious.

I am thinking there is a reason you are doing that.

There is something you are willing to protect that is saying it is impossible " like manner" is the rapture, when the rapture IS GOING TO MIRROR WHAT THE DISCIPLES SAW in acts 1

A VIRTUAL MIRROR OF ACTS 1.
" LIKE MANNER"


HUH???
What is going on with this?

IOW, What in your doctrine is changed if it is the rapture?
^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^

Like i said ,the rapture MIRRORS "like manner" of acts 1

 

[Absolutely]

The question is not if there will be a rapture but when will the rapture be?
“Rapture”as you well know refers the catching up to meet the Lord in the air of living believers. Context as follows. 1Thessalonians 4: 15-18 for this we say onto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which sleep for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord wherefore for comfort one another with these words. Timing ? The first resurrection , namely The Second Coming of Christ. Open , loud , and noisy. On the same day. One event.

Your verse fits pretrib rapture perfectly.
I never heard of a secret rapture till your camp invented it.

 

[Absolutely]

Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.

In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.

In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^

 

[FreeGrace2]

riverhooks said:
Because the pretribulationist version is the biggest kidnapping in History will take place and everyone will wonder where the believers went airplanes will fall from the sky their pilots raptured , cars will run over pedestrians their drivers raptured . These are the scenarios of pretribulationist rapture books. I for one. The Blessed Hope is not the pretribulationist rapture. It is a false teaching look to scripture The Blessed hope is the Lords return . I still haven’t found someone that is a pretribulationist speak any scripture to support such an event . Bible is clear . Clear the catching up of the living believers to meet the Lord in the air is at the first resurrection. At the Second Coming of Christ not the Third. Read your Bible Amigo.

Wrong...just wrong.

Please make an attempt to prove your claim. At least.

 

[Absolutely]

He went up (to Heaven) FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES

["likewise"/"IN LIKE MANNER" (as they SAW Him traveling INTO HEAVEN, Acts 1)... He will descend TO the mount of Olives, as in Zech14:4 at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH]


In the RAPTURE, it is HE who will DESCEND TO (the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR* location);
whereas WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *ONLY*) who will be SNATCHED UP TO that location (not "TO the mount of Olives")...

...see the difference??










[besides this ^ ... BETWEEN His "I ASCEND [active]" (John 20:17) ON "FIRSTFRUIT" His Resurrection Day (Lev23:10-12)... and His LATER *VISIBLE* ascension in Acts 1... there was a PERIOD of "FORTY DAYS"... see what I mean??]

"""In the RAPTURE, it is HE who will DESCEND TO (the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR* location);
whereas WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *ONLY*) who will be SNATCHED UP TO that location (not "TO the mount of Olives")..."""

Go back and read it.
Jesus was in the air when " like manner" was declared.
You invented the mt of olives thingy

 

[Absolutely]

Every Eye will see him , Not, Every eye will seem except those millions that are sleeping. Don’t make me come over there.

you are postrib rapture adherent .

Since you passionately believe it, can you post a verse pointing to it?

Surely you do have a verse?

 

[Absolutely]

Every Eye will see him , Not, Every eye will seem except those millions that are sleeping. Don’t make me come over there.

double post

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.

At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.

There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

You need a new Bible...may I ship you one?

Didn't you read the last sentence in my post above?

My reading Bible is very worn, for sure. That's because I've been reading through the NT monthly for about 2 decades.

But, no thank you. The notes I've written in it are too valuable to to leave, and too much work trying to incorporate them into a new Bible. But thanks anyway.

On a side note, I continue to just be amazed at the extreme stubborness of pretribbers. IN SPITE of having NO evidence for a trip to heaven led by Jesus in glorified bodies, y'all just keep pushing that narrative.

Why?

Or better, why would God give us His Word but leave out such an important event, if such an event will be part of the future?

It just makes no sense.

Please go with what has been written. You cann't go wrong with that.

But, since you are so convinced of this presumed trip to heaven after getting a glorified body, could you please list briefly the verses that have convinced you of it?

Thank you. As you don't, I don't want to be wrong either.

 

[Absolutely]

And that is the Second Advent. Jesus comes to earth only twice. First time as the "suffering Servant" and second time as the "King of kings and Lord of lords". Prove me wrong, if I am.


Wrong. There is nothing about your trip to heaven in a glorified body. 1 Thess 4 is the Second Advent where ALL believers get a glorified body.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Please show me from Scripture how the red words cannot be the Second Advent and the blue words cannot be the SINGLE resurrection of all believers.


Then, please at least CITE the verses where we see "2 comings".

Thank you.

You know where i stand.
And have posted it before


Stop that silliness

 

[FreeGrace2]

The question is not if there will be a rapture but when will the rapture be?
“Rapture”as you well know refers the catching up to meet the Lord in the air of living believers.

However, the full doctrine includes a trip to heaven after getting a glorified body. That's what ALL pretribbers are waiting for; the trip to heaven.

So, in THAT sense, there is NO rapture. Yes, there certainly will be a "gathering up" (2 Thess 2:1) of living believers to meet the Lord in the air, with all the previously dead believers, and all will receive glorified bodies; the dead before the living. 1 Thess 4

Context as follows. 1Thessalonians 4: 15-18 for this we say onto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which sleep for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord wherefore for comfort one another with these words. Timing ? The first resurrection , namely The Second Coming of Christ. Open , loud , and noisy. On the same day. One event.

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace2]

riverhooks said:
The question is not if there will be a rapture but when will the rapture be?
“Rapture”as you well know refers the catching up to meet the Lord in the air of living believers. Context as follows. 1Thessalonians 4: 15-18 for this we say onto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which sleep for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord wherefore for comfort one another

Your verse fits pretrib rapture perfectly.

You really should at least read another's post before making your comments.

No SENSE of rapture includes a trip to heaven led by Jesus (or anyone else) with glorified bodies. 1 Thess 4:15-18 IS clearly about the Second Advent. Just as 2 Thess 2:1 is. And Rev 20:4,5 is as well.

I never heard of a secret rapture till your camp invented it.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

It is your camp that 'invented' the fantasy trip to heaven in glorified bodies.

You STILL haven't shown any such trip described in the Bible.

So stop throwing stones.

 

[Absolutely]

I will have to assume you haven't read any of my posts.


As a student of the Bible fromthe Berean method of study, this is what I have found and shared for pages and pages on this thread.

1. There is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

2. All believers will receive their glorified bodies at the single resurrection of the saved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (all believers belong to Him, because He has saved them)

3. The single resurrection of the saved will occur "when He comes" which is a reference to the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Red words refer to believing martyrs from the Tribulation.
Blue words refer to the single resurrection, which obviously will occur when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Since there is only one, John wasn't motivated to mention all the other previously dead saints, nor the living ones. But ALL will "reign with him".


Could you provide the verses that have convinced you of this? And what is the time frame for 'rapture' and 2nd Coming?



Exactly.

No
You omit verses, as does every single postribber here.

You have never made a legit argument for postrib rapture

Just apply your same "prove a negative" baloney to your buddies here.
Tell em
" show me a verse that says Jesus does NOT take any believers to heaven"

Use you silly methods on your own camp.

See how easy that is???
See how nonsensical your mess is???

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know where i stand.

I sure do. Quicksand.

And have posted it before

No matter how many times you do won't make it true.

Stop that silliness

What is truly silly is the invention that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven. Regardless of when the Trib will be.

Stop that silliness yourself.

 

[Absolutely]

Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.

In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.

In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Could you provide the verses that have convinced you of this? And what is the time frame for 'rapture' and 2nd Coming?"

No

Well, you are corrrect, for once! You can't because there just AREN'T ANY.

You omit verses, as does every single postribber here.

Hilarious, really. You have NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, and you accuse others of "omitting" verses. That's just rich! You are FORCED to "omit" verses that would support your claims, because there ARE NO such verses.

You have never made a legit argument for postrib rapture

Given all the verses I've shared, this is a very dense comment. And you have NEVER even tried to reframe any of them to fit YOUR presumptions.

Just apply your same "prove a negative" baloney to your buddies here.
Tell em
" show me a verse that says Jesus does NOT take any believers to heaven"

Well, thanks for another example of denseness.

I never have asked for such a stupid request. I HAVE asked for showing me a verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Maybe you just don't understand the difference here. I am not surprised. I've never asked anyone to "prove a negative". That's just a deflecting smokescreen challenge.

I AM asking you to prove a positive. If Jesus is going to take glorified believers to heaven, then PROVE IT with Scripture.

That's what you can't do, because the Bible doesn't make that claim.

So you can't prove your "positive".

And in spite of the denseness, I have proven that the resurrection and gathering of all believers will be at the Second Advent.

I can't help you believe the truth. I can only provide it for you to consider. Now, it's between you and God.

Use you silly methods on your own camp.

Could you please be more specific here?

But I'm pretty sure you lack ability to be specific.

 

[oyster67]

The False Teaching of what happens at the Rapture.

I believe people have been taught through preaching, books, videos etc a wrong view of what happens at the Rapture.

This false teaching says that when people are caught away to meet the Lord others will see them rise in the air, and great devastation will happen. Planes will fall out of the sky as Christian pilots are taken away, plus cars and buses, trains etc will all crash because their drivers were believers and were caught away.

People are told that unbelievers will be shocked and horrified as they realise they have been `left behind.`

None of this is a true picture, I believe, of what will really happen at the rapture.

The Truth of what will happen at the Rapture.

God`s word says that we will see that Day, (of the Lord) approaching and thus get together more.

`...exhorting, (encouraging and warning) one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

I believe the Holy Spirit will be stirring our spirits expectantly so that we know the time is very close.

`To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear...` (Heb. 9: 28)

In the world people will think WW 3 is happening. The Russian Federation plus Iran, Ethiopia and Libya, (Ez. 38: 1 - 5) will be brought down by God to the mountains of Israel for judgment. The amassing of those troops will be very plain to see. Even now there is movement in those nations. People of the world will be looking at their phones, TV, etc in great fear of a nuclear World War.

The Lockdowns due to a supposed pandemic will keep people separate from others. Most will only be concerned with getting supplies, (which may be limited) and returning home.

Then when those who are eagerly waiting and looking for the Lord are taken, their bodies will be changed and there will be nothing left to indicate where they are. If some people do notice that so and so is not around there are many reasons for that - gone into a covid quarantine camp, visiting relatives, gone on holiday, etc etc.

Have you ever thought about this?

Might happen that way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

At some point, when "like manner" enters your dialogue, the entire dynamic changes.
That is what was said; "like manner"
Your model is NOT "like manner" at all.
You did not hear a word i said, nor did you address " like manner" seriously.
You think eliminating all that is obvious, and framing, " like manner" , as ....."up vs down."
Like manner!!!!

1) Ahem, feet not on the planet
2)Solo
3)No army
4)No horses
5)No war
6)Not tied to 10 acres of land.
7)No killing
8)No ac
9) No destroyed planet.
10) Only his believers saw it, so no ," every eye shall see him"
All you need to do is look at the obvious.

"Like manner" is NOWHERE in your model.
Interesting that you take a verse and somehow you need it to defy the obvious.

I am thinking there is a reason you are doing that.

There is something you are willing to protect that is saying it is impossible " like manner" is the rapture, when the rapture IS GOING TO MIRROR WHAT THE DISCIPLES SAW in acts 1
A VIRTUAL MIRROR OF ACTS 1.
" LIKE MANNER"

HUH???
What is going on with this?
IOW, What in your doctrine is changed if it is the rapture?
^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^
Like i said ,the rapture MIRRORS "like manner" of acts 1

2) [re: His SECOND ascension, Acts 1]
"THUS..."
"IN LIKE MANNER"
"AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM TRAVELING INTO HEAVEN" (from the mount of Olives)

[reflective of "every eye shall SEE Him..." "...and they [/"the TRIBES of the earth" (note: a word used only of Israel, throughout Scripture)] will SEE the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" Matt24:29-31 / Rev19 / Isaiah 27:[9],12-13... His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (Zech 14:4)]




[but back up some "40 days" earlier...]

1) [re: His FIRST ascension, ON FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12 (His Resurrection Day, 1Cor15:20)]
note: the above ^ (#2) was His later ascension... He did one "FORTY DAYS" PRIOR to this ON FIRSTFRUIT/His RESURRECTION day (John 20:17), which was VISIBLE TO NO ONE!!! Only "TOLD" to MM, who was instructed by Him to "GO TO MY BRETHREN and SAY UNTO THEM"... she did that and "THEY BELIEVED NOT"!! See Mark 10-11 (So then, Jesus "UPBRAIDED" the eleven "with their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART, because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen" [Mary Magdalene INCLUDED!], Mark 16:14)

[reflective of what we see Scripture describing as the circumstances (and mindsets) FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (for those persons who will then be existing IN the Trib years, on the earth) as I had spelled out in a previous post...]







The pattern is consistent! [<--open the eyeballs ]







[you are requiring "horses" to be in EVERY context talking about His Second Coming to the earth (even in these patterns)... but I don't believe even you yourself, if you LISTED EVERY passage you think speaks of His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19), see "horses" in EACH OF THOSE texts. Think about it.]