Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I've heard that 'unique' or 'one-of-a-kind' come closer to the meaning of monogenes than does 'only-begotten'. They are also familiar to modern readers, whereas 'begotten' is really only familiar to folks who read the KJV... and many of them don't have a handle on what it means.

I disagree, as do all the qualified KJB translators.

Since the phrase deals with the nature, and Jesus is of the same nature as His Father, it would mean "unique" or "one of a kind" is inaccurate, since the Father and Son are two persons.

 

[TheLearner]

John 11
38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

 

[TheLearner]

Is Jesus praying or just teaching here?

Matthew 5:1-6:30
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus Teaches the People
5 When Jesus saw the crowds of people there, he went up on a hill and sat down. His followers came and sat next to him. 2 Then Jesus began teaching the people. He said,

3 “Great blessings belong to those who know they are spiritually in need.[a]
God’s kingdom belongs to them.
4 Great blessings belong to those who are sad now.
God will comfort them.
5 Great blessings belong to those who are humble.
They will be given the land God promised.
6 Great blessings belong to those who want to do right more than anything else.[c]
God will fully satisfy them.
7 Great blessings belong to those who show mercy to others.
Mercy will be given to them.
8 Great blessings belong to those whose thoughts are pure.
They will be with God.
9 Great blessings belong to those who work to bring peace.
God will call them his sons and daughters.
10 Great blessings belong to those who suffer persecution for doing what is right.
God’s kingdom belongs to them.

11 “People will insult you and hurt you. They will lie and say all kinds of evil things about you because you follow me. But when they do that, know that great blessings belong to you. 12 Be happy about it. Be very glad because you have a great reward waiting for you in heaven. People did these same bad things to the prophets who lived before you.

You Are Like Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its taste, it cannot be made salty again. Salt is useless if it loses its salty taste. It will be thrown out where people will just walk on it.

14 “You are the light that shines for the world to see. You are like a city built on a hill that cannot be hidden. 15 People don’t hide a lamp under a bowl. They put it on a lampstand. Then the light shines for everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, you should be a light for other people. Live so that they will see the good things you do and praise your Father in heaven.

Jesus and the Old Testament Writings
17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom. 20 I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God’s kingdom.

Jesus Teaches About Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to our people long ago, ‘You must not murder anyone.[d] Any person who commits murder will be judged.’ 22 But I tell you, don’t be angry with anyone. If you are angry with others, you will be judged. And if you insult someone, you will be judged by the high court. And if you call someone a fool, you will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “So, what if you are offering your gift at the altar and remember that someone has something against you? 24 Leave your gift there and go make peace with that person. Then come and offer your gift.

25 “If anyone wants to take you to court, make friends with them quickly. Try to do that before you get to the court. If you don’t, they might hand you over to the judge. And the judge will hand you over to a guard, who will throw you into jail. 26 I assure you that you will not leave there until you have paid everything you owe.

Jesus Teaches About Sexual Sin
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that if a man looks at a woman and wants to sin sexually with her, he has already committed that sin with her in his mind. 29 If your right eye makes you sin, take it out and throw it away. It is better to lose one part of your body than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Jesus Teaches About Divorce
31 “It was also said, ‘Any man who divorces his wife must give her a written notice of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that any man who divorces his wife, except for the problem of sexual sin, is causing his wife to be guilty of adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman is guilty of adultery.

Jesus Teaches About Making Promises
33 “You have heard that it was said to our people long ago, ‘When you make a vow, you must not break your promise. Keep the vows that you make to the Lord.’[g] 34 But I tell you, when you make a promise, don’t try to make it stronger with a vow. Don’t make a vow using the name of heaven, because heaven is God’s throne. 35 Don’t make a vow using the name of the earth, because the earth belongs to him.[h] Don’t make a vow using the name of Jerusalem, because it also belongs to him, the great King. 36 And don’t even say that your own head is proof that you will keep your promise. You cannot make one hair on your head white or black. 37 Say only ‘yes’ if you mean ‘yes,’ and say only ‘no’ if you mean ‘no.’ If you say more than that, it is from the Evil One.

Jesus Teaches About Fighting Back
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, don’t fight back against someone who wants to do harm to you. If they hit you on the right cheek, let them hit the other cheek too. 40 If anyone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let them have your coat too. 41 If a soldier forces you to walk with him one mile,[j] go with him two. 42 Give to anyone who asks you for something. Don’t refuse to give to anyone who wants to borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[k] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies. Pray for those who treat you badly. 45 If you do this, you will be children who are truly like your Father in heaven. He lets the sun rise for all people, whether they are good or bad. He sends rain to those who do right and to those who do wrong. 46 If you love only those who love you, why should you get a reward for that? Even the tax collectors do that. 47 And if you are nice only to your friends, you are no better than anyone else. Even the people who don’t know God are nice to their friends. 48 What I am saying is that you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

 

[TheLearner]

Jesus Teaches About Giving
6 “Be careful! When you do something good, don’t do it in front of others so that they will see you. If you do that, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “When you give to those who are poor, don’t announce that you are giving. Don’t be like the hypocrites. When they are in the synagogues and on the streets, they blow trumpets before they give so that people will see them. They want everyone to praise them. The truth is, that’s all the reward they will get. 3 So when you give to the poor, don’t let anyone know what you are doing.[l] 4 Your giving should be done in private. Your Father can see what is done in private, and he will reward you.

Jesus Teaches About Prayer
5 “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites. They love to stand in the synagogues and on the street corners and pray loudly. They want people to see them. The truth is, that’s all the reward they will get. 6 But when you pray, you should go into your room and close the door. Then pray to your Father. He is there in that private place. He can see what is done in private, and he will reward you.

7 “And when you pray, don’t be like the people who don’t know God. They say the same things again and again. They think that if they say it enough, their god will hear them. 8 Don’t be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 So this is how you should pray:

‘Our Father in heaven,
we pray that your name will always be kept holy.
10 We pray that your kingdom will come—
that what you want will be done here on earth, the same as in heaven.
11 Give us the food we need for today.
12 Forgive our sins,
just as we have forgiven those who did wrong to us.
13 Don’t let us be tempted,
but save us from the Evil One.’[m]

14 Yes, if you forgive others for the wrongs they do to you, then your Father in heaven will also forgive your wrongs. 15 But if you don’t forgive others, then your Father in heaven will not forgive the wrongs you do.

Jesus Teaches About Fasting
16 “When you fast, don’t make yourselves look sad like the hypocrites. They put a look of suffering on their faces so that people will see they are fasting. The truth is, that’s all the reward they will get. 17 So when you fast, wash your face and make yourself look nice. 18 Then no one will know you are fasting, except your Father, who is with you even in private. He can see what is done in private, and he will reward you.

You Cannot Serve Two Masters
19 “Don’t save treasures for yourselves here on earth. Moths and rust will destroy them. And thieves can break into your house and steal them. 20 Instead, save your treasures in heaven, where they cannot be destroyed by moths or rust and where thieves cannot break in and steal them. 21 Your heart will be where your treasure is.

22 “The only source of light for the body is the eye. If you look at people and want to help them, you will be full of light. 23 But if you look at people in a selfish way, you will be full of darkness. And if the only light you have is really darkness, you have the worst kind of darkness.[n]

24 “You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one and love the other, or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God and Money[o] at the same time.

Put God’s Kingdom First
25 “So I tell you, don’t worry about the things you need to live—what you will eat, drink, or wear. Life is more important than food, and the body is more important than what you put on it. 26 Look at the birds. They don’t plant, harvest, or save food in barns, but your heavenly Father feeds them. Don’t you know you are worth much more than they are? 27 You cannot add any time to your life by worrying about it.

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? Look at the wildflowers in the field. See how they grow. They don’t work or make clothes for themselves. 29 But I tell you that even Solomon, the great and rich king, was not dressed as beautifully as one of these flowers. 30 If God makes what grows in the field so beautiful, what do you think he will do for you? It’s just grass—one day it’s alive, and the next day someone throws it into a fire. But God cares enough to make it beautiful. Surely he will do much more for you. Your faith is so small!

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Hi Brother, I see monogene as being only unique. I am filmilar with independent ministries who claims the Son of God came into existence before creation. Please, clarifly your positions to remove all doubts. Thanks, Daniel

The Son exists eternally, uncreated as "I AM", having life in Himself, unborrowed, underived, alongside the person of the Father. They have always existed in eternity before any creation took place. The Son never came into existence at any point by creation or anything else. There was never a moment in eternity past when the Son, as a person/being was not along side the Father. Family is eternal.

The phrase "only begotten" simply means that Jesus nature as Deity is of the Father, who is identified as the only true God. Jesus is God by nature, and the Son by nature of the Father. Time has nothing to do with either term.

 

[TheLearner]

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, you should go into your room and close the door. Then pray to your Father. He is there in that private place. He can see what is done in private, and he will reward you.

Matthew 26:39
Then Jesus went on a little farther away from them. He fell to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, don’t make me drink from this cup. But do what you want, not what I want.”

Matthew 26:42
Then Jesus went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if I must do this and it is not possible for me to escape it, then I pray that what you want will be done.”

Luke 10:21
Jesus Prays to the Father
Then the Holy Spirit made Jesus feel very happy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. I am thankful that you have hidden these things from those who are so wise and so smart. But you have shown them to people who are like little children. Yes, Father, you did this because it’s what you really wanted to do.

Luke 11:2
Jesus said to the followers, “This is how you should pray: ‘Father, we pray that your name will always be kept holy. We pray that your kingdom will come.

John 17:1
Jesus Prays for Himself and His Followers
After Jesus said these things, he looked toward heaven and prayed, “Father, the time has come. Give glory to your Son so that the Son can give glory to you.

John 17:21
Father, I pray that all who believe in me can be one. You are in me and I am in you. I pray that they can also be one in us. Then the world will believe that you sent me.

These are the only texts I could find. Which one has him directry teaching Childen how to pray to the Father. Which texts say Children were present? Which one's have him praying alone?

I am not sure you answered the direct question of If Jesus is the Father incarnated, why is he praying to himself?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Daniel

Btw, Hi (Malo) Daniel.

 

[Dino246]

I disagree, as do all the qualified KJB translators.

Since the phrase deals with the nature, and Jesus is of the same nature as His Father, it would mean "unique" or "one of a kind" is inaccurate, since the Father and Son are two persons.

All the "qualified KJB translators" died at least 350 years ago.

As for the rest, we disagree. Here are the passages where the term appears in relation to Jesus and His relationship to the Father:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

It appears to me that you are making the a priori assumption that the phrase is dealing with nature. In contrast, I see "unique" implied in the sense of every verse above, and "nature" implied in none of them.

 

[TheLearner]

I disagree, as do all the qualified KJB translators.

Since the phrase deals with the nature, and Jesus is of the same nature as His Father, it would mean "unique" or "one of a kind" is inaccurate, since the Father and Son are two persons.

God is unique

 

[TheLearner]

Start at #1,225

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

God is unique

That's altering the goalpost.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't recall ever teaching children how to pray or praying to the Father in front of them. What texts do you have in mind? A little exploring now.

John 17
English Standard Version
The High Priestly Prayer
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

The children learn how to pray from the son

“And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the children learn to be children from the son

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Jesus came to be born it was this time

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to really understand that part

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The God of heaven has reached into the earth and made himself known on our level because we could t hear and see him otherwise

It’s God in both cases the one God manifest in two places in heaven father in heaven and son manifest on earth to the children because we werent able to understand him or know him in heaven

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:10‬ ‭


“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


it’s always been God the Lord Jesus who himself became the Christ. We just couldn’t know him in full until the son came forth and made himself known

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ( the sons name makes children )

And the Word ( God ) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he came to make himself known but many don’t recognize who he is the creator , the all mighty and most high God . It is the very thing that makes our God so amazing other gods created by the imaginations of man they sit high and look low the person must achieve tonthier hieghts and crawl before them

Our God saw that we were lost and had no hope of salvation no hope of a savior and so he himself became what would save and redeem us because he Loves us

“We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:11, 15-17‬ ‭

whe he saw us lost he stepped off the throne in Christ Jesus and came and jumped into our mess we created for ourselves in order to reveal himself whom is our salvation

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore my people shall know my name: ( Jesus ) therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭52:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He appears as son and shows subjection during the gospel for our benefit to teach us to be subject to God as he loves his life on earth. But it’s the same God who created heaven and earth come to save us from our sins

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

It appears to me that you are making the a priori assumption that the phrase is dealing with nature. In contrast, I see "unique" implied in the sense of every verse above, and "nature" implied in none of them.

I have no a priori except the koine Greek itself

Mono
Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only". If that were the only word present I might be on your side, but another word is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another. It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.)
1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father. Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.

 

[Dino246]

I have no a priori except the koine Greek itself

Mono
Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only". If that were the only word present I might be on your side, but another word is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another. It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.)
1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father. Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.

You're using circular reasoning.

 

[justbyfaith]

If Jesus was the Father, why did he pray to himself?

He was distinct as human and came to provide for us an example of how to relate to the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who appeared to Isaiah, as recorded in Isaiah 6?

Before you answer, "God", that's not an adequate response.

Why isn't it? it is the answer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Questions for 'justbyfaith'.

1. When Jesus was resurrected and showed himself to the apostles, he had a glorified (Philippians 3:21) human body of "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39) with his scars of crucifixion still there (John 20:25,27), which he still had at his ascension, forty days later (Acts 1:3), and according to the same author (Luke a physician (Colossians 4:14) who knows about the human body), Jesus then ascended (Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, even with a group of resurrected flesh and bone humans, Matthew 27:53) heaven (3rd, 2 Corinthians 12:2,4) in that "same" body (Acts 1:11), as Revelation reveals (Revelation 5:6, "stood a Lamb as it had been slain") to sit at the right hand of the Majesty on high (the Father, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1), to which it is stated by the angels standing by, he is to return with, even as prophecy declares:

Hab 3:4: "And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power."

So, do you believe Jesus entered heaven in a glorified human body with the scars of the resurrection and still has those mark, with which he will return, or not, and if not, what do you believe took place and/or will take place between burial and 2nd Advent?

I believe that Jesus is still come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv)) but that He has ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10)in the Person of the Holy Ghost (Luke 23:46)

2. If Jesus did not ascend to heaven with a resurrected and glorified human body, how will the rest of saved humanity enter heaven?

n/a.

3. Do you believe that God was always "triune" (citing yourself) in eternity past, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?

Both. From eternity's perspective, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost exist outside of time.

However, I believe that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35) and then ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) to again exist outside of time. The Person of the Son may have gone back in time from the moment of ascension to the point that is spoken of in Genesis 1:3.

4. Do you believe that the Father is from eternity a Father, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?

Time is related to eternity in that what we find in time, eternity has always been privy to it and eternity always sees what is taking place in time.

5. Do you believe that God was from eternity relational, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity relational, with whom was God relational with?

See above answer.

6. Do you believe that God is love from eternity, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity love, with whom was God love?

God is love from eternity based on my answer to question 4; while He cannot be love without an object of love and therefore God has always been privy to what happens in time as He dwells in eternity.

7. Jesus is the example of how humanity will enter heaven, and if Jesus ceases to be a flesh and bone person, what will humanity become when they enter heaven? Do they become part of God and cease to be individual flesh and bone human beings?

I believe that we do not cease to be flesh and bone human beings when we enter into eternity.

 

[justbyfaith]

The words "only begotten" do not refer to the 'incarnation'. The Son was the "only begotten" from eternity before humanity ever existed. Read John 1:18, 3:16 carefully. The Father gave the Son (only begotten) before the Son appeared on earth in the likeness of sinful flesh. 1 John 4:9 confirms this:

1Jn 4:9: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."

"Only begotten", monogene (etc) does not have anything to do with time, or 'incarnation'. It refers to the nature of the Son in relation to the Father. The Son is the only of one of the same nature of Deity as the Father. Angels are created, as are humanity, both with differing nature's than Deity and differing from one another. The created angels and created humanity are sons to God, but not in the same way that the Son is, because of His nature as Deity.

I(f the Son was eternally begotten, then you are speaking of what might be an eternal mirror on which the other side of the mirror from the Father is Jesus Christ.

However, that is two Gods in eternity, so I categorically reject that (see James 2:19).

Hebrews 10:5 speaks to me of what happened when God sent His only begotten Son to die for us.

Your statements do not deter me in the slightest from believing that the Son was begotten in the incarnation; for that doctrine is clearly set forth in Luke 1:35.

 

[Stumbling]

I have given the above post with the understanding that essence and Spirit are synonymous as we understand them in the creeds.

 

[Dino246]

Why isn't it? it is the answer.

Just answer the question.