Some of the reasons I pulled away from Dispensationalism.

[Beckie]

Background:
Dad was in Bible School when i was born. Glad Tidings was a Assemblies of God school. The blessings of being born into a Christian family I will ever be thankful for. The family lived and breathed Dispensational thinking. Some of my earliest memories are making sure i was right with Jesus because the nation of Israel had formed and it was now about 7 years beyond 1948. So scared i had sinned and would be left, mind you i was 9 -10 . The secret rapture ... if Mom was not home for some reason when school got out the fear of being left behind would hit again time after time... Didn't expect Dad to be home he was a tree faller along with pastoring a small Pentecostal church. The point here is i grew up with a heavy dose of Dispensationalism. Thinking a Scofield Bible was THEE Word of God.

I am not a good writer, struggle with making myself clear. Because of this reply from a fellow poster i will attempt this thread.
Rhomphaeam

I would like to be able to continue the conversation. On reading the Schofield notes you posted I would want to understand your own reasons for likening his words to an equivalence of the deception that took place in the garden. Thats a very strong position - but you must have your own way of explaining yourself. So a new thread would be valuable I think. To me at least. Thanks.

I could list a mess of urls, that is not my plan although i will use others notes.

Please lets not go to the yes no yes no postings

 

[Artios1]

Unfortunately, we do not have THEE word of God.

We have versions of …some are good, some are not so good…….There are many KJO (King James only) peeps who defend it with their lives and swear by it’s accuracy….. I use it because it is what I started with, but there are plenty of errors in the KJ…as well as many others.
I have several different Bibles, but not the Scofield, so I don’t know much about it…. other than it has commentary and does promote certain things….. one of which is dispensationalism…which I am not necessarily against. It is a term that God uses…. so there is nothing wrong with the term…but like anything, some can take it way beyond the biblical boundaries.

While a dispensation (better translated administration) is not an epoch…. every administration covers a period of time…. and is terminated by death or decree.

So the question(s) become….. is there a justification to the various administrations that some have decreed ....using the pattern of the grace administration? I can see it….I don’t necessarily use it, but I can see it. Another question could be….. If you have one administration, which we know from the Word is the administration of Grace. Could you say …. there has to be at least one previous… as a demarcation to whatever was now…

I don’t know …Just speculation.

I am going to post a thread on the Return of Christ for the Church of God, which will include some of this. It is extensive, but it is biblically conclusive… regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ prior to the GT (great tribulation).

 

[Beckie]

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is a heavy place to start discussing Scofield . Reading Scripture with out consulting Scofield is a huge part of why i left dispensationalism. I am aware here are fractions of Dispensational teachings there is not one 'box' for all dispensational believers .

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mar 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

There are many more but folks dont like long posts. Most of us have online Bibles we can quickly search. These sure read a lot alike to me.

 

[Beckie]

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

To me this is were Scofield makes the bid, builds his theories for an earthly Kingdom despite the fact Jesus says this Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Scofields (S) notes say this ...

The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Scofield on Mat_3:2), in five respects:
(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luk_13:28; Luk_13:29; Heb_12:22; Heb_12:23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth (See Scofield on Mat_3:2) 1Co_15:24; 1Co_15:25.
(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth Joh_3:3; Joh_3:5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false. (See Scofield on Mat_13:3) Mat_25:1; Mat_25:11; Mat_25:12
(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Mat_13:24-30; Mat_13:36-43; Mat_13:47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Mat_13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Scofield on Mat_13:33).
(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luk_17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom_14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zec_12:8, note; (N.T.),; Luk_1:31-33; 1Co_15:24, note; Mat_17:2, note.) (See Scofield on Zec_12:8), Luk_1:31-33 (See Scofield on 1Co_15:24; Mat_17:2).
(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1Co_15:24-28 (See Scofield on Mat_3:2).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Unfortunately, we do not have THEE word of God.

Even Muslims would not make such a statement about their Koran, yet a Christian can say this. Sad.

For all those who could be misled by this remark let me say this: WE DO HAVE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD and God calls it the Sword of the Spirit. God not only inspired His Word, but He also watched over it since it is in fact written in Heaven.

So how do we know that we have the Word of God? One would need to go into the history of the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts which became the basis of the Reformation bibles. Then by the 19th century textual scholars began collating the huge numbers of Greek manuscripts as well as the smaller numbers of Hebrew manuscripts. They found that the majority of extant manuscripts supported the texts underlying the Reformation bibles. And for the English language the King James Bible was found to be the most reliable English translation. It was used for over 300 years as "the Word of God". And it is still in use as God's Word (now that it is over 400 years old).

 

[Artios1]

Even Muslims would not make such a statement about their Koran, yet a Christian can say this. Sad.

For all those who could be misled by this remark let me say this: WE DO HAVE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD and God calls it the Sword of the Spirit. God not only inspired His Word, but He also watched over it since it is in fact written in Heaven.

So how do we know that we have the Word of God? One would need to go into the history of the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts which became the basis of the Reformation bibles. Then by the 19th century textual scholars began collating the huge numbers of Greek manuscripts as well as the smaller numbers of Hebrew manuscripts. They found that the majority of extant manuscripts supported the texts underlying the Reformation bibles. And for the English language the King James Bible was found to be the most reliable English translation. It was used for over 300 years as "the Word of God". And it is still in use as God's Word (now that it is over 400 years old).

My mistake ...Thee.... as in the originals

 

[Nehemiah6]

My mistake ...Thee.... as in the originals

God knew that the original manuscripts would perish through usage, just as our bibles can only take so much handling before they need to be replaced. So God ensured a system of copying which would be extremely strict in making faithful copies.

The proof that copies were made faithfully over a period of about 3,500 is found in the Isaiah scroll which was a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Those scrolls go back to about 200 BC but the Isaiah scroll was an almost exact replica of the book of Isaiah found in the Leningrad Codex (c 1,000 AD). The same can be said for the Greek manuscripts where 95% or more resemble each other dating from the about 2nd to the 13th centuries.

So the traditional texts which were finally printed in the 14th and 15th centuries represent the autographs (original manuscripts). The printed Greek text was further refined over about 100 years (as more manuscripts were found and collated), but the changes were extremely few. So for all practical purposes we have the Word of God in our hands. The KJV is a very powerful translation which has withstood the test of time.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Getting back to Dispensationalism. This sound system of Bible interpretation rests on the premise that the Bible should be taken in its plain literal sense unless there are figures of speech involved. Which means that nothing should be allegorized or treated as symbolic unless there is a perfectly good reason to do so. The reason Dispensationalism gets a bad rap is because it exposes the weakness of Covenant Theology (generally held by Protestant Denominations).

One of the biggest errors which Dispensationalism addresses is Replacement Theology -- the substitution of the Church for Israel, and the assumption that God has no future plans for redeemed and restored Israel. Another major error is Amillennialism. A third major error is Preterism. People who hold to these erroneous ideas hate to give them up, and rather become defensive. Therefore they attack Dispensationalism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

To me this is were Scofield makes the bid, builds his theories for an earthly Kingdom

There are no "theories" of an earthly Kingdom of God. This truth is embedded in Scripture and is clearly seen in Daniel 7:13,14. Indeed throughout the book of Daniel, and many other prophetic books (including the Torah).

DANIEL 7: CHRIST'S ETERNAL KINGDOM ON EARTH
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him [Christ] dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Now this ties in with the dreams and visions in other parts of Daniel.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR'S DREAM
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the Stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever...

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

So to claim that Christ will NOT set up an earthly Kingdom in the future is not only foolish but unbiblical.

 

[Journeyman]

Beckie,
People have always been saved by faith in our Lord and are one body in him.

 

[John146]

Unfortunately, we do not have THEE word of God.

We have versions of …some are good, some are not so good…….There are many KJO (King James only) peeps who defend it with their lives and swear by it’s accuracy….. I use it because it is what I started with, but there are plenty of errors in the KJ…as well as many others.
I have several different Bibles, but not the Scofield, so I don’t know much about it…. other than it has commentary and does promote certain things….. one of which is dispensationalism…which I am not necessarily against. It is a term that God uses…. so there is nothing wrong with the term…but like anything, some can take it way beyond the biblical boundaries.

While a dispensation (better translated administration) is not an epoch…. every administration covers a period of time…. and is terminated by death or decree.

So the question(s) become….. is there a justification to the various administrations that some have decreed ....using the pattern of the grace administration? I can see it….I don’t necessarily use it, but I can see it. Another question could be….. If you have one administration, which we know from the Word is the administration of Grace. Could you say …. there has to be at least one previous… as a demarcation to whatever was now…

I don’t know …Just speculation.

I am going to post a thread on the Return of Christ for the Church of God, which will include some of this. It is extensive, but it is biblically conclusive… regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ prior to the GT (great tribulation).

I've got THEE word of God. I read it everyday.

 

[John146]

Those that don't believe in dispensations...I would ask you, where's your ark? Didn't God command to build an ark? Do you offer animal sacrifices? Why not? There are divisions to be made according to audience and time period. God's word has been dispensed throughout human history. What God gave Noah was not the same as He gave Adam. What God gave Abraham was different than what He gave Noah, etc..

 

[Artios1]

I've got THEE word of God. I read it everyday.

If you did have originals ….it would be worth ……well, it would be priceless.

And yet …even the translated versions, which we have…. are priceless for those who seek. Take everything I have …but don’t dare touch my Bible.

 

[Journeyman]

Those that don't believe in dispensations...I would ask you, where's your ark? Didn't God command to build an ark? Do you offer animal sacrifices? Why not? There are divisions to be made according to audience and time period. God's word has been dispensed throughout human history. What God gave Noah was not the same as He gave Adam. What God gave Abraham was different than what He gave Noah, etc..

They all lived by faith in God. That's the gospel Jesus taught.

 

[John146]

If you did have originals ….it would be worth ……well, it would be priceless.

And yet …even the translated versions, which we have…. are priceless for those who seek. Take everything I have …but don’t dare touch my Bible.

I don't need the originals. I have the preserved word of God in English. Never emphasize the "originals" more than God. If God thought the "originals" were needed, He would have preserved them.

 

[John146]

They all lived by faith in God. That's the gospel Jesus taught.

The OT Jews under the law were required by God to obey the law to be part of God's physical people Israel.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Dispensations are not in The Word of Truth? Yes, IF that is your opinion of what you wish to choose. Why not choose What God Actually Says About This Doctrine?

These Are "why I believe" In "God's Dispensations":

1Co_9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against
my will, A Dispensation of The Gospel is committed unto me."

Eph_1:10 "That in The Dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:"

Eph_3:2 "If ye have heard of The Dispensation Of
The GRACE Of God Which is given me to you-ward:"

Col_1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to
The Dispensation of God Which is given to me for you,
to Fulfil [Complete] The Word of God;"

No opinion needed. Amen?

 

[Beckie]

Getting back to Dispensationalism. This sound system of Bible interpretation rests on the premise that the Bible should be taken in its plain literal sense unless there are figures of speech involved. Which means that nothing should be allegorized or treated as symbolic unless there is a perfectly good reason to do so. The reason Dispensationalism gets a bad rap is because it exposes the weakness of Covenant Theology (generally held by Protestant Denominations).

One of the biggest errors which Dispensationalism addresses is Replacement Theology -- the substitution of the Church for Israel, and the assumption that God has no future plans for redeemed and restored Israel. Another major error is Amillennialism. A third major error is Preterism. People who hold to these erroneous ideas hate to give them up, and rather become defensive. Therefore they attack Dispensationalism.

What did Jesus literally say about His kingdom ? Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Dino246]

Getting back to Dispensationalism. This sound system of Bible interpretation rests on the premise that the Bible should be taken in its plain literal sense unless there are figures of speech involved. Which means that nothing should be allegorized or treated as symbolic unless there is a perfectly good reason to do so.

I agree with you on this (bolded) statement, which is why I reject dispensationalism with its allegorical treatment of the seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3. They were literal letters to literal congregations, not fantastical prophetic allusions to the future states of the Christian church.

 

[Aaron56]

In full disclosure I think Paul would marvel at some of the things God is showing us today.

A true dispensation is merely a "measured giving" of something. It's when we apply an -ism on the end that we get into trouble.

We should certainly believe in dispensations; the Bible is clear that they are real. However, dispensationalism falls apart when men say "That won't happen again because it already happened".