Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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Google "what does the dead know nothing in Eccl mean?" You will find easy to understand links to read about it.
You keep using something the author said about what he thought about things as though it was what God says about things. You are using it in a way that the author did not intend.
It's not Jesus preaching through Solomon about the state of the dead, it is Solomon (maybe) telling us his thoughts just like he does in Eccl 4:2
2 And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. (whether you use the word fortunate, or better off, instead of happy does not matter, the point is still the same)
He is telling us what his thoughts were when he was dealing with the frustrations of finding meaning under the sun through various attempts from building, to womanizing, to drinking, art, education and what he thought about things during that journey.
It is not true that the wicked dead are better off than the living, but it is true that he thought that at one time.
Also I don't think he intended for you to understand him as saying that the dead have no consciousness but that they no longer know anything about what is going on under the sun.
https://www.gotquestions.org/dead-know-nothing.html
We'll examine the "where" and "when" of Paradise.
Where is Paradise?
The Tree of Life is in Paradise (Revelation 2:7 KJV) and is planted on both sides of the River of Life (Revelation 22:2 KJV) which flows from the Throne of God (Revelation 22:1 KJV), and if that isn't enough, Paul spoke of one caught up to Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV). Therefore, Paradise is up there, not down here, agreed?When is Paradise (for Jesus and the thief)?
Luke 23:43 KJV - "Verily I say unto thee today thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." Since punctuation was added by the translators, the text can be read two ways:
"Verily I say unto thee , today thou shalt be with Me..." - Jesus and thief went to Paradise that Friday.
"Verily I say unto thee today , thou shalt be with Me..." - promise given Friday that both would one day be in Paradise
So, which way should it be read?
On Sunday He said, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" which means He didn't go to Paradise on Friday.
The thief was still alive when they took him down just before sunset when Friday was changed into Sabbath, therefore he did not go to Paradise on Friday.
The thief did not expect to go to Paradise that day, but in the end of time "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
The word "today" precedes the verb it modifies 50 times, but follows the verb it modifies 170 times, which means the majority use of the word "today" suggests it's modifying "I say", not "shalt be"
If we put the comma after "today", Scriptural harmony is maintained. If we put the comma before "today" it causes total confusion. Jesus' Spirit ascended to the Father, His body (was preserved from turning) to dust, and the "living Soul" Jesus ceased to be "in hades" aka "in death" as a consequence of the disunion of the Spirit and His body until Sunday (Genesis 2:7 KJV) while, of course, the Divine, Immortal, Creator Jesus remained unaffected by death.
Google is the 'god' of many to answer their request for knowledge, but there are still a few which turn to the true God of scripture in their request for knowledge. Google is a large number, but God is infinite in wisdom. Google can present error as truth on occasion, but God never errs.
What is the koine Greek words used there that are translated into English, "forever and ever"?
How does the English bible referred to define "forever and ever"?
In Revelation 20:8-9 who are the ones in those verses?
Where are they all standing in relation to the context of New Jerusalem?
Where do they end up?
Scripture harmony? According to your theology? Leave the KJV as it stands. Even the punctuation is inspired even the first word “Today” is capitalized. Paradise was in Abraham’s bosom in the heart of the earth across the great gulf from hell. The Lord would meet the thief there after depositing sins in hell and getting the keys of hell and death.
Wait, are you saying if there's no eternal torment, why not party hearty and go out with a bang?
Was born and raised Roman Catholic, 30 years (Seventh-day Adventist now last 14), full communion, in a family of practicing (full year round) Catholic, that served the local Bishop in Sacramento, CA for many years, and was part of the right to life chain movement run by my other (now late) aunt (J.S.), as well as the Bishop Gallegos Maternity home for women, run by my aunt (L.("D.")M.) for many years until recently (retired). I aided in each on countless occasions, but I also served briefly in a specific Catholic ministry which as EWTN stated were expert in their field by "M." Angelica, whom the leadership were personal friendsk of. That particular ministry specialized in Catholic History, Miracles, Saints, Holy Sites and pilgrimages to those sites. They still exist but have changed states.
I personally have read many of the so called "ECF", read and studied nearly everything at Papal Encyclicals.net, traversed much at NewAdvent.org by Kevin Knight as well as Vatican.va unto the current Jesuit 'pope' (Jorge Bergoglio) and state current (Laudato Si, Fratelli tutti, etc). I have studied in Catholic encyclopedia (though over 100 years old now), the officially sanctioned (Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, etc) Catholic Catechism, as well as deeply studied Catholic Canon Law and lawyers various commentary. I even had the little blue Pieta book memorized, and a specially 'blessed' scapula worn daily and 'blessed' Rosary.
I have studied not merely Roman Catholic history, but protestant and secular history as well. I have read Ignatius Loyala Spiritual exercises, as well as Opus Dei, etc material. I have read Gibbon, D'Aubgine, Ligouri, Lord Acton, Luther, Melanchthon, Tyndale and Moore, Heiks and AT Jones (Two Republics, etc), Augustine and Aquinas (Summa), Origen and Melito of Sardis, studied in Creation and philosophy and logic. I have studied the Justinian code and a plethora of other materials including Islamic history and Frederick II of Padua, etc.
I have read the Catholic Bible (New American St. Joseph's Ed.,), including the apocrypha ('deutero-canon') and King James Bible and considered Latin of Jerome and Jesuit Douay Rheims, German of Luther, French of Olivetan, Italian of Diodati, Spanish of Valera and currently looking at Samoan language. Studied in textual criticism, and various translations, mss, papyrii, lectionaries, codices, fragments, miniscules, majescules and some archaeological materials (things pertaining to scripture mostly but not all, like Egyptian history, pyramidology, mythology and Greek and Roman and some Babylonian and even north and south American mythology).
"Studied various baptist confessions and history, as well as vaudois, passagini, paulician, insabatti, sabbatini, albigensi, puritan, pilgrim and united States history.
Deeply studied in prophecy and repeating history (this is the final cycle and final generation).
Also studied in logical programming languages way back when.
Still read, still study on my own time and dollar now.
Any ways hopefully that helped you in some way.
I study the scriptures and teach them nowadays.
No, bro, the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek was inspired and a single line of that contained punctuation. That was added by the translators according to as they, not the Holy Spirit, saw fit, and since most of them had been taught RCC brand theology, it's a miracle that more punctuation errors hadn't occurred.
If carefully considered, the comma isn't mistakenly added. It's perfect where it is. There is a printer's error, or editorial error of a missing comma that was missed in editorial reprinting. Compare all the other verses that use similar languge as you noted previously. If you want I can probably post that for you:
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. - John 1:51
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. - John 3:11
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. - John 5:19
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. - John 5:25
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. - John 6:26
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. - John 6:32
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. - John 6:53
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. - John 8:34
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. - John 8:51
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. - John 10:1
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - John 10:7
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. - John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. - John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. - John 13:20
When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. - John 13:21
Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. - John 13:38
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. - John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. - John 16:20
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. - John 16:23
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. - John 21:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. - Matthew 5:26
Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:2
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:5
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:16
When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. - Matthew 8:10
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. - Matthew 10:15
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. - Matthew 10:2
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. - Matthew 10:42
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. - Matthew 13:17
I love me the KJV, but thank God for the Textus Receptus and the Peshitta.
Here is a much better hermeneutic. The speaker (Jesus) has used similar language just recently and meant that an event would happen that day.
Luke 22:34 34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
And so we have evidence that the speaker (Jesus) is known to communicate about what will happen that day and not that he is known to explain to the listener what day he is actually speaking. It was not normal for this speaker in the past to tell people "I am telling you this today. I am not telling you this last week. I am not telling you this tomorrow, I am telling you this today?
Think about it, your being crucified, you can hardly get a breath to breath and you want to tell someone that they are going to be in paradise and you are going to waste words telling them what day you are doing the talking? Not hardly. He is not wasting unnecessary words when he tells him that he will be with him in paradise THAT day.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
The word paradise is a word that is used interchangeably in different contexts. In this context it is referring to a well known concept of the Jews that there was a place for the righteous dead as soon as they died and before the resurrection. That is what Jesus was promising him. And that is where he went. Whether you can figure out the time or the location is irrelevant. It is just more natural reasoning about spiritual things.
Second death is kinda final.
How many hells do you have? Read more - Rev 20:14
Only if you have a hell mindset. If hell is in hades, and they are thrown into hell then the place of hell is burnt in hell is Ouroboros, a pagan concept. It is not logical.
With regard to "today", the word "samayron" in the Greek OT and NT precedes the verb it modifies 50 times, but follows the verb it modifies 170 times - almost 4 -1. That means the majority use of the word has "today" modifying "I say" and not "shalt be".
Of course, the KJV translators having been ingrained by the Beast power with the "mouth of a lion" which taught as "Babylon" did that the dead were "not surely" dead, placed the comma where they thought it should be, which is before "today" to indicate that they believed the dead are immediately in heaven or hell at death.
There is no room for hell. It has always been seeking everlasting Joy with the Father, and not torture avoidance. The atheist problem of evil will be solved.
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
I guess Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning with "everlasting fire"? Think "result", not "process".
BTW, "forever" ("aionios") means "duration: undefined but NOT endless" - when the word is applied to the affairs of men, it means "all the days of life" like the slave who chose to remain his master's slave "forever". He's not gonna be a slave in the kingdom, right or wrong?
I don't know why it is people insist on believing in Eternal Torment when it can be shown to be unBiblical, except perhaps it has to do with "exclusivity religion" where members can feel special with special treatment as other are denied and excluded. Luciferians do it, Calvinists do it, too.