Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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Grandpa said:
Bearing fruit has NOTHING to do with Salvation?

Wow.

You guys have said some really dumb stuff throughout this conversation but this might be the winner of your contest.
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Umm, I see some dishonesty, you don't need to put words in others mouth. What is said is about possessing salvation. John 15 is the fruit of salvation, not the root of salvation. If you are trying the verse as a means of having salvation, then you are saying you are doing your own salvation. You're working on it. Please clarify your positiion. Thanks
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
We are not saved by the works of the law.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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I know that. Did you think I was saying that we are saved by works of law? My point was that it is God who is the gift of Eph 2:8.
With, and by the gift of God, is faith (Christ's faith) and salvation. Since God is the gift, then everything He brings are also a gifts
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
No, everyone who becomes saved, are so, because they are of the remnant of the election of grace. See "election" below?

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
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The entire passage is concerning Israel, not the Gentile body of Christ.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
I know that. Did you think I was saying that we are saved by works of law? My point was that it is God who is the gift of Eph 2:8.
With, and by the gift of God, is faith (Christ's faith) and salvation. Since God is the gift, then everything He brings are also a gifts
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Believing is not a work of the law. That was my point.
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
The entire passage is concerning Israel, not the Gentile body of Christ.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
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Are you saying the Jews have a different salvation than does everyone else?
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
Are you saying the Jews have a different salvation than does everyone else?
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No, they sought righteousness by the works of the law, but it's by faith. At the time of Paul, there was a remnant of the Jews who sought righteousness by faith and not by the works of the law.
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
Believing is not a work of the law. That was my point.
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Anything needed to receive salvation is a work. I could even say that everything not a gift is a work.
If we have to manufacture belief, then it is our work to achieve.
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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John146 said:
No, they sought righteousness by the works of the law, but it's by faith. At the time of Paul, there was a remnant of the Jews who sought righteousness by faith and not by the works of the law.
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No, it came by the election of grace. Grace is self-contained, It cannot be earned, only given. A faith that we might manufacture
would negate grace. There cannot be grace without election, otherwise it is work

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
Yea, I missed your point but not the scripture point of view. You have shifted and drifted. If there is a gift of God, then there is a giver of this gift. Your case scenario only shows your getting out of gas.
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Huh? Christ is the giver of the gift of God and is God. He is the Saviour, isn't He?
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
Umm, you try to dodged the word "through" being the instrumentality What is the gift of God? I discuss this and provided other scripture to prove my point, what you have, none. Grace is unmerited favour of God. "By" indicates the means or instrumentality in which God used, hence the source is God.
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If it is the "faith" part of the verse you are referring to, it is Christ's faith through which there is salvation, not though our faith. So, with that in mind, "through faith" (Christ's faith) fits and harmonizes perfectly with the rest of the verse.
 
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rogerg

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FreeGrace2 said:
You have a very unique way of comprehending things. The verse says that salvation is the gift, not God.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
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Again, it is clear: salvation is the gift of God.

Says so plainly. I can't help you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, but actually, I'm trying to help you. These verses shows that God dwells in those whom He saves and from His dwelling, is salvation. This conforms perfectly with God as the gift of Eph 2:8. In other words, to be saved is to have God within you.
Read these verses closely:

[Rom 8:11 KJV] 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

** quicken: to cause to live

and

[Jhn 14:17 KJV] 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
Umm, you try to dodged the word "through" being the instrumentality What is the gift of God? I discuss this and provided other scripture to prove my point, what you have, none. Grace is unmerited favour of God. "By" indicates the means or instrumentality in which God used, hence the source is God.
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I forgot about this verse. Christ's faith, not ours:

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
Of course, you did not address that "through", then, saying, this gift is singular but you are trying to tweak "salvation and faith" (plural) as singular. You need to choose, the "gift (singular) of God" is either salvation or faith. God's pattern of this gift of God as said never refer to faith. It is salvation or eternal life, Holy Spirit etc. but not used as faith.
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Not sure if I already replied to this post, so I'll do so now.

The "through" I think you're referring to is "through faith". However, as I said in a prior post, it is Christ's faith, not our faith. Christ's faithfulness is what brings salvation to the elect. The singular was to show that God (alone) is the gift, but from the gift of God, comes faith and salvation.
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
Anything needed to receive salvation is a work. I could even say that everything not a gift is a work.
If we have to manufacture belief, then it is our work to achieve.
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Paul is specific when stating works of the law....
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
No, it came by the election of grace.
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God elected grace to save them, not works...grace through faith in Christ. Faith come by hearing the word of God. It's not "manufactured."
 
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peldom10

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FreeGrace2 said:
justpassinthrough said:
If it’s not in scripture then where does it come from?

This illustrates how one who does NOT HAVE supportive Scripture answers. If the poster had supporting Scripture, this would have been the perfect opportunity to prove his claims.
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Why don't you prove it is not in scripture? Are u up to that search? I bet not.
 
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peldom10

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John146 said:
Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer...no works necessary on our part.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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That refers to...works without faith. Keep it in context.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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rogerg said:
If it is the "faith" part of the verse you are referring to, it is Christ's faith through which there is salvation, not though our faith. So, with that in mind, "through faith" (Christ's faith) fits and harmonizes perfectly with the rest of the verse.
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Good assumption, nevertheless, that is not what as the scripture sayeth, Christ says "believe on me hath everlasting life" John 6:47 that perfectly harmonize scripture.
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
od elected grace to save them, not works...grace through faith in Christ. Faith come by hearing the word of God. It's not "manufactured."
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If we have to produce faith of ourselves then it would be a faith manufactured by ourselves. Were it possible for our faith to bring salvation, then in-effect, we would have tried to leverage that faith to the purchasing of salvation - because the faith for doing so would be of ourselves. Nothing a man can produce can sway God unto salvation.
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
Good assumption, nevertheless, that is not what as the scripture sayeth, Christ says "believe on me hath everlasting life" John 6:47 that perfectly harmonize scripture.
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Yes, but by the faith of Christ, even we have believed in Christ. In other words, through Christ's faithfulness, we are given faith as a gift.
However, our faith is not what saves us, Christ's faith is. Regarding, Christ's statement above, it is true that those who believe on Him have everlasting life, but the question is how do they come to believe in Him? It is through Christ's faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
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