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Dear KrisWampler,
There is no difference in "free will" and "free sovereign will". Most people just say "free will".
Why do you believe that no one can repent if we don't have a free will? That is not true and very easy to prove from scripture.
Consider these verses:
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Christ's work is spiritual work and that work occurs in our hearts and minds. When He is ready for a person to repent, He will change their heart and mind so that they willingly repent. Is that so hard to believe? God is not like mankind so don't expect Him to work and behave like mankind. We should look to scripture to understand how God works and this verse below is one of the key ones:
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.
God has put obscurity (this world, our carnal nature) in man's heart so that we CANNOT perceive the work that He does there. If we could see it, we would know from our own experience that God is fully in control of our hearts and minds. But since mankind is carnal and spiritually blind, we cannot observe His spiritual work within us, "that which God does from the beginning to the end".
As for your comment on mankind being "blameless" for our sins if we do not have a "free will": Paul was asked about this very issue about why God still holds us accountable for our sins in light of the truth that God is the cause of our sin happening in the first place. You should read all of Romans chapter 9 where God's "will" and sin are addressed. Here are a couple of the key verses from that chapter:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Here in this verse, Paul is supporting the teaching that mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from God's "will". And that even when we sin, it is because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Because this is true, this question is asked "why doth He yet find fault?"
Here is Paul's answer to the question in verse 19:
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Here are my thoughts on the matter: God holds mankind accountable for our sins which He causes because it suits His purposes to do so. God is teaching mankind the difference between good and evil. If God doesn't create evil, then there wouldn't be any evil. If He doesn't hold us accountable for willingly doing the evil, how can mankind learn right from wrong?
Ultimately, God has taken the responsibility for making us evil by sending Christ to bring mankind out from the evil He created. By Christ's death on the cross and His ongoing work within mankind, all mankind will be born again and made righteous. In "due time", this truth will be testified to be true:
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I recommend you find my first post on this thread where I presented the "big picture" for this creation and read it if you have not already done so. It will fill in many details of what I have touched on above.
Joe
There is no difference in "free will" and "free sovereign will". Most people just say "free will".
Why do you believe that no one can repent if we don't have a free will? That is not true and very easy to prove from scripture.
Consider these verses:
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Christ's work is spiritual work and that work occurs in our hearts and minds. When He is ready for a person to repent, He will change their heart and mind so that they willingly repent. Is that so hard to believe? God is not like mankind so don't expect Him to work and behave like mankind. We should look to scripture to understand how God works and this verse below is one of the key ones:
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.
God has put obscurity (this world, our carnal nature) in man's heart so that we CANNOT perceive the work that He does there. If we could see it, we would know from our own experience that God is fully in control of our hearts and minds. But since mankind is carnal and spiritually blind, we cannot observe His spiritual work within us, "that which God does from the beginning to the end".
As for your comment on mankind being "blameless" for our sins if we do not have a "free will": Paul was asked about this very issue about why God still holds us accountable for our sins in light of the truth that God is the cause of our sin happening in the first place. You should read all of Romans chapter 9 where God's "will" and sin are addressed. Here are a couple of the key verses from that chapter:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Here in this verse, Paul is supporting the teaching that mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from God's "will". And that even when we sin, it is because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Because this is true, this question is asked "why doth He yet find fault?"
Here is Paul's answer to the question in verse 19:
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Here are my thoughts on the matter: God holds mankind accountable for our sins which He causes because it suits His purposes to do so. God is teaching mankind the difference between good and evil. If God doesn't create evil, then there wouldn't be any evil. If He doesn't hold us accountable for willingly doing the evil, how can mankind learn right from wrong?
Ultimately, God has taken the responsibility for making us evil by sending Christ to bring mankind out from the evil He created. By Christ's death on the cross and His ongoing work within mankind, all mankind will be born again and made righteous. In "due time", this truth will be testified to be true:
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I recommend you find my first post on this thread where I presented the "big picture" for this creation and read it if you have not already done so. It will fill in many details of what I have touched on above.
Joe
Dear KrisWampler,
Why do you believe that having an ability to choose means we have "free will"? Of course, mankind has the ability to make choices but that does not mean we have a "free will".
This is the definition of "free will": the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.
Scripture clearly teaches that mankind has "divine restraints":
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
These verses above ALL teach that there are "divine restraints" on mankind's "will" and ability to "choose". There are NO VERSES that state differently. ONLY GOD HAS A FREE WILL, MANKIND DOES NOT.
Look at this simple analogy: a computer makes "choices" all day long but no one would say that the computer has a "free will". The choices that the computer (mankind) makes are caused by the programmer (God). The programmer as a "free will" but the computer does not.
The Doctrine of Free Will is a works based belief system and is rejected by God. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works "lest any man should boast". If mankind had a "free will", we could boast about the great decision we made to accept Christ as Lord. But mankind does not have that ability and therefore, we have nothing to boast about concerning our salvation. 100% of the work that must be done for our salvation comes from God through Christ. Christ is the Savior. Mankind contributes nothing.
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Christ's work is spiritual work and it happens in our hearts and minds. I can't stress that truth enough. When Christ is ready for someone to repent, He will change their heart and mind and cause it to happen. The supposed free will of man does not cause us to make that choice. Christ causes that choice to happen and that is what scripture clearly says. No one can resist God's "will" as Paul said in Romans 9:19.
Scripture even says this:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Christ is spirit and His work is now spiritual. He is no longer in the flesh. Christ is in the business of accomplishing His Father's "will" by changing mankind's hearts and minds so that the Father's "will" is done on earth as it is in heaven. Christ does not force us to make the decisions we make. He simply works within us to change our hearts and minds so that we willingly make the choices He has determined we should make.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
When the Kingdom of Heaven comes to a person, it comes without observation and it comes "within" them. This is the spiritual work of Christ and it is how He will convert all mankind from being an evil child of the Devil to being a good child of God. This is how evil will cease to exist. This is the true "solution" to evil.
Joe
Why do you believe that having an ability to choose means we have "free will"? Of course, mankind has the ability to make choices but that does not mean we have a "free will".
This is the definition of "free will": the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.
Scripture clearly teaches that mankind has "divine restraints":
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
These verses above ALL teach that there are "divine restraints" on mankind's "will" and ability to "choose". There are NO VERSES that state differently. ONLY GOD HAS A FREE WILL, MANKIND DOES NOT.
Look at this simple analogy: a computer makes "choices" all day long but no one would say that the computer has a "free will". The choices that the computer (mankind) makes are caused by the programmer (God). The programmer as a "free will" but the computer does not.
The Doctrine of Free Will is a works based belief system and is rejected by God. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works "lest any man should boast". If mankind had a "free will", we could boast about the great decision we made to accept Christ as Lord. But mankind does not have that ability and therefore, we have nothing to boast about concerning our salvation. 100% of the work that must be done for our salvation comes from God through Christ. Christ is the Savior. Mankind contributes nothing.
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Christ's work is spiritual work and it happens in our hearts and minds. I can't stress that truth enough. When Christ is ready for someone to repent, He will change their heart and mind and cause it to happen. The supposed free will of man does not cause us to make that choice. Christ causes that choice to happen and that is what scripture clearly says. No one can resist God's "will" as Paul said in Romans 9:19.
Scripture even says this:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Christ is spirit and His work is now spiritual. He is no longer in the flesh. Christ is in the business of accomplishing His Father's "will" by changing mankind's hearts and minds so that the Father's "will" is done on earth as it is in heaven. Christ does not force us to make the decisions we make. He simply works within us to change our hearts and minds so that we willingly make the choices He has determined we should make.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
When the Kingdom of Heaven comes to a person, it comes without observation and it comes "within" them. This is the spiritual work of Christ and it is how He will convert all mankind from being an evil child of the Devil to being a good child of God. This is how evil will cease to exist. This is the true "solution" to evil.
Joe
K
Dude I’m not reading all that. If you don’t believe in free will then stop preaching the Gospel or worrying about your sin immediately. It doesn’t matter because you aren’t free to choose anything and no one else is either. All are either saved or not but it doesn’t matter since they’re not free anyway.
This isn’t a difficult concept no matter how badly you want it to be. The Bible repeatedly exhorts us to repent. Repenting is a choice. Choices cannot and do not exist without the possibility of choosing something else. That is the essence of free will, free sovereign will, free autonomous will, whatever you wish to call it.
This isn’t a difficult concept no matter how badly you want it to be. The Bible repeatedly exhorts us to repent. Repenting is a choice. Choices cannot and do not exist without the possibility of choosing something else. That is the essence of free will, free sovereign will, free autonomous will, whatever you wish to call it.
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I agree. In fact, one of the passages cited above in Jer.18 is often used to show that mankind has no free will, but the text says otherwise,
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up,and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to buildand to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer.18:6-10
It's apparent God means he's going to mold people according to their choices.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom.9:21
Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2Tim.2:21
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up,and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to buildand to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer.18:6-10
It's apparent God means he's going to mold people according to their choices.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom.9:21
Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2Tim.2:21
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Dear KrisWampler,
Again, you are mistaking the ability to make "choices" with the ability to make uncaused choices. Why won't you accept the definition of "free will" that I posted? No where in scripture does it say that mankind can make uncaused choices that are different from God's "will". In fact, the many verses which I posted say just the opposite.
The ways of Christ and how He operates in this world is different than what human reasoning dictates. For that reason, we must use scripture to gain understanding. If you won't let scripture (guided by the Holy Spirit) teach you Christ's truth, then you are going to be misled by the ways of this world. The verses I posted are not hard to understand. If you can't believe them, then I recommend that you pray for more faith. Remember that the children of God walk by faith and not by sight (what our human reasoning tells us). No one argues that mankind cannot make choices but scripture clearly says that the choices we make come from God.
Let me ask you this: Do you believe that Christ is forcing you to make the choices you make? I'm sure you don't but you wrongly attribute that belief to a supposed "free will". The truth is that Christ never forces us to do anything against our "will" because He changes our "will" to match to His "will". That is how He "causes" the choices we make. He prepares our hearts and gives us the answer of our tongue (Prov 16:1). He works within our hearts and minds without our knowledge until our "will" matches to His "will". Our "will" is no match for His "will". He is that powerful. He is God.
Joe
Again, you are mistaking the ability to make "choices" with the ability to make uncaused choices. Why won't you accept the definition of "free will" that I posted? No where in scripture does it say that mankind can make uncaused choices that are different from God's "will". In fact, the many verses which I posted say just the opposite.
The ways of Christ and how He operates in this world is different than what human reasoning dictates. For that reason, we must use scripture to gain understanding. If you won't let scripture (guided by the Holy Spirit) teach you Christ's truth, then you are going to be misled by the ways of this world. The verses I posted are not hard to understand. If you can't believe them, then I recommend that you pray for more faith. Remember that the children of God walk by faith and not by sight (what our human reasoning tells us). No one argues that mankind cannot make choices but scripture clearly says that the choices we make come from God.
Let me ask you this: Do you believe that Christ is forcing you to make the choices you make? I'm sure you don't but you wrongly attribute that belief to a supposed "free will". The truth is that Christ never forces us to do anything against our "will" because He changes our "will" to match to His "will". That is how He "causes" the choices we make. He prepares our hearts and gives us the answer of our tongue (Prov 16:1). He works within our hearts and minds without our knowledge until our "will" matches to His "will". Our "will" is no match for His "will". He is that powerful. He is God.
Joe
Dear Journeyman,
No one has ever acted contrary to God's "will".
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
God has purposely made mankind to be in a state of rebellion against Him. At this time, He is giving mankind an experience of evil. He is causing us to act contrary to His good and righteous ways for the purpose of teaching us the knowledge of evil. Through scripture, He tells us how to properly behave and act. Then once His purpose for evil is satisfied, He will cause us all to be obedient. For that purpose, the Father sent Christ into the world.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Until Christ does His spiritual work within us, we can't possibly be anything but sinful, evil creatures. No amount of supposed "free will" can change that truth.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Where is your "free will" in the verse above? Did you use your supposed "free will" to choose Christ? This verse says you did not. Did you use your supposed "free will" to call Jesus "Lord". The verse below says you did not.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Only after Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit (prepares their heart), can they call Jesus "Lord". And after that event (Early Rain of the Spirit), they can no longer call Jesus accursed. Where is your supposed "free will" there?
Joe
No one has ever acted contrary to God's "will".
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
God has purposely made mankind to be in a state of rebellion against Him. At this time, He is giving mankind an experience of evil. He is causing us to act contrary to His good and righteous ways for the purpose of teaching us the knowledge of evil. Through scripture, He tells us how to properly behave and act. Then once His purpose for evil is satisfied, He will cause us all to be obedient. For that purpose, the Father sent Christ into the world.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Until Christ does His spiritual work within us, we can't possibly be anything but sinful, evil creatures. No amount of supposed "free will" can change that truth.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Where is your "free will" in the verse above? Did you use your supposed "free will" to choose Christ? This verse says you did not. Did you use your supposed "free will" to call Jesus "Lord". The verse below says you did not.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Only after Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit (prepares their heart), can they call Jesus "Lord". And after that event (Early Rain of the Spirit), they can no longer call Jesus accursed. Where is your supposed "free will" there?
Joe
Easily disproven,
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mt.7:21
Many won't be saved, because they they didn't do Godss' will.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? Mt.21:31
One son did Gods' will and one didn't.
Pauls' point is that God has chosen people who are humble, not the proud. Read the whole chapter. You'll see Paul is saying God made Pharaoh angry by sending lowly Moses to him with a demand. He pi%%ed him off.
Purposely by reason of who he is. Not purposely that he wants people to sin against him. This is key to understanding how Gods' will is always done.
God brings "evil" (calamity, trouble) to people because people in distress turn to God. Simple. He also allows good people (people who follow him) to experience evil because,
tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Rom.5:3-4
Of course without God in us we're doomed, but if you think God didn't begin by making man in his image youre wrong.
He means only people who are drawn to God, who love God, can come to him,
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh to me. Jn.6:45
In Jn.6, Jesus said something to them which was difficult to understand, so they began questioning his integrity. That's why our Lord said what he did. He didn't mean God puts a spiritual magnate on people.
Paul is teaching that although Christians have different gifts, we all have the same Spirit. The body of Christ being one. He isn't saying no unbeliever, liar,
(whatever), can say Jesus is Lord.
I know a brother who once let someone who said "Jesus is Lord" live in his house. I told him not to do it, but he said to me, he must have the holy Spirit because.....then he quoted 1Cor.12:3 to me. He came home from work one day and and all his furniture was gone. True story.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mt.7:21
Many won't be saved, because they they didn't do Godss' will.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? Mt.21:31
One son did Gods' will and one didn't.
Pauls' point is that God has chosen people who are humble, not the proud. Read the whole chapter. You'll see Paul is saying God made Pharaoh angry by sending lowly Moses to him with a demand. He pi%%ed him off.
Purposely by reason of who he is. Not purposely that he wants people to sin against him. This is key to understanding how Gods' will is always done.
God brings "evil" (calamity, trouble) to people because people in distress turn to God. Simple. He also allows good people (people who follow him) to experience evil because,
tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Rom.5:3-4
Of course without God in us we're doomed, but if you think God didn't begin by making man in his image youre wrong.
He means only people who are drawn to God, who love God, can come to him,
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh to me. Jn.6:45
In Jn.6, Jesus said something to them which was difficult to understand, so they began questioning his integrity. That's why our Lord said what he did. He didn't mean God puts a spiritual magnate on people.
Paul is teaching that although Christians have different gifts, we all have the same Spirit. The body of Christ being one. He isn't saying no unbeliever, liar,
(whatever), can say Jesus is Lord.
I know a brother who once let someone who said "Jesus is Lord" live in his house. I told him not to do it, but he said to me, he must have the holy Spirit because.....then he quoted 1Cor.12:3 to me. He came home from work one day and and all his furniture was gone. True story.
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Dear journeyman,
Absolutely no one does the good and perfect "will" of the Father except Christ. We are all carnally minded sinners. No one is humble or deserving of salvation. It is only when we are "in Christ" that we become acceptable to the Father and can do the good and perfect "will" of the Father. For this to happen, Christ must come to us and give us the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit (both Early and Latter Rain). If He doesn't do this work first, we would all remain in our carnally minded, spiritual marred condition we have from birth. In that condition, we cannot seek out or understand God. We are totally at the mercy of Christ to save us.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The verses you quoted do not mean what you say they mean. Salvation will come to all mankind but there is an order. In this present age, Christ is only saving those who have been called AND chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Heirs/First Fruits. All others will die in their sins and be resurrected to judgment. But from that judgment, they too, will be saved. The first to be saved are the First Fruits in this age, then in the final age will come the full harvest of mankind. You must rightly divide the Word by this order. Christ will not leave any of His crop of mankind to rot in the field. He is the good farmer.
The "many" who Christ will say He never knew are the "many called" but not chosen. They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit but were not chosen to receive the Latter Rain and be converted. The "many called" will receive their portion with the unbelievers.
Salvation is 100% the work and responsibility of Christ. We cannot contribute to our own salvation in our carnally minded condition. That is why scripture says we are saved by grace through faith. No man is worthy of salvation. Without God's Grace, Christ would not come to us and give us His gifts. God is not a respecter of persons. Christ does the choosing and His "choosing" was done before the foundation of the world. Mankind's supposed "free will" cannot change when our salvation will occur.
Paul was the chief of sinners and was tormenting the church. But God's grace fell on Him on the Damascus Road. Paul did not ask for it nor did He have to agree to receive it. But once Christ came to Paul and gave him the gift of the Holy Spirit, Paul immediately called Him "Lord". This event was the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is when an unbeliever is called out from the world to be in the church. They are not saved at this point. Then three days later in Damascus, Paul received the Latter Rain and was converted (saved). Scripture says that Paul's calling and conversion is the pattern for salvation. All mankind will follow this pathway, either now or in the final age. Most of mankind is not called in this age but many are and from that group of many called, a few have been chosen for salvation. We have no "free will" ability to alter this order. If a person has not been chosen from the foundation of the world, they will not be saved in this age because Christ will not give them His "gifts". And without those gifts, they will not be converted.
Christ is the Savior of the world, not just a part of the world as is commonly taught.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If even one person remains lost, Christ would be a failure accomplishing the mission the Father gave Him. Christ would then miss the mark which would be a sin.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
The Doctrine of Free Will and Hell make Christ out to be a failure.
Do you not know:
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails;
Christ most certainly will not fail. Mankind's "will" is NOTHING for Him to overcome:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Joe
Absolutely no one does the good and perfect "will" of the Father except Christ. We are all carnally minded sinners. No one is humble or deserving of salvation. It is only when we are "in Christ" that we become acceptable to the Father and can do the good and perfect "will" of the Father. For this to happen, Christ must come to us and give us the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit (both Early and Latter Rain). If He doesn't do this work first, we would all remain in our carnally minded, spiritual marred condition we have from birth. In that condition, we cannot seek out or understand God. We are totally at the mercy of Christ to save us.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The verses you quoted do not mean what you say they mean. Salvation will come to all mankind but there is an order. In this present age, Christ is only saving those who have been called AND chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Heirs/First Fruits. All others will die in their sins and be resurrected to judgment. But from that judgment, they too, will be saved. The first to be saved are the First Fruits in this age, then in the final age will come the full harvest of mankind. You must rightly divide the Word by this order. Christ will not leave any of His crop of mankind to rot in the field. He is the good farmer.
The "many" who Christ will say He never knew are the "many called" but not chosen. They have received the Early Rain of the Spirit but were not chosen to receive the Latter Rain and be converted. The "many called" will receive their portion with the unbelievers.
Salvation is 100% the work and responsibility of Christ. We cannot contribute to our own salvation in our carnally minded condition. That is why scripture says we are saved by grace through faith. No man is worthy of salvation. Without God's Grace, Christ would not come to us and give us His gifts. God is not a respecter of persons. Christ does the choosing and His "choosing" was done before the foundation of the world. Mankind's supposed "free will" cannot change when our salvation will occur.
Paul was the chief of sinners and was tormenting the church. But God's grace fell on Him on the Damascus Road. Paul did not ask for it nor did He have to agree to receive it. But once Christ came to Paul and gave him the gift of the Holy Spirit, Paul immediately called Him "Lord". This event was the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is when an unbeliever is called out from the world to be in the church. They are not saved at this point. Then three days later in Damascus, Paul received the Latter Rain and was converted (saved). Scripture says that Paul's calling and conversion is the pattern for salvation. All mankind will follow this pathway, either now or in the final age. Most of mankind is not called in this age but many are and from that group of many called, a few have been chosen for salvation. We have no "free will" ability to alter this order. If a person has not been chosen from the foundation of the world, they will not be saved in this age because Christ will not give them His "gifts". And without those gifts, they will not be converted.
Christ is the Savior of the world, not just a part of the world as is commonly taught.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If even one person remains lost, Christ would be a failure accomplishing the mission the Father gave Him. Christ would then miss the mark which would be a sin.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
The Doctrine of Free Will and Hell make Christ out to be a failure.
Do you not know:
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails;
Christ most certainly will not fail. Mankind's "will" is NOTHING for Him to overcome:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Joe
I don't think this is quite right, for several reasons. I am a bit confused too because I think there are places in your post where you should have used the word "bad" (undesirable, "I don't like it") versus "evil" (objectively morally wrong).
You said: "If God were to draw an arbitrary line and allow some evil but eliminate others, isn’t that itself evil? Why prevent evil by divine fiat for some but not all? This solution is also evil." But in fact this is incorrect, God HAS at point actually eradicated those whose evil was exceedingly evil. Sodom comes to mind.
Then there's the problem that Biblically there are no "good" (morally right or correct) human beings. "There is none righteous, no not one." It would actually therefore be good (objectively morally right or correct) for God to wipe out all humanity.
If that's the case, is God evil for tolerating evil us? The answer is a resounding NO and the reason is time. God WILL judge all evil at the end of time. He is choosing merciful forbearance while time lasts because redeeming us results in overwhelming positive good! Not because we are good, but because God is good and because through Christ we can wear God's very goodness ourselves! We will one day be LIKE CHRIST in righteousness.
You said: "If God were to draw an arbitrary line and allow some evil but eliminate others, isn’t that itself evil? Why prevent evil by divine fiat for some but not all? This solution is also evil." But in fact this is incorrect, God HAS at point actually eradicated those whose evil was exceedingly evil. Sodom comes to mind.
Then there's the problem that Biblically there are no "good" (morally right or correct) human beings. "There is none righteous, no not one." It would actually therefore be good (objectively morally right or correct) for God to wipe out all humanity.
If that's the case, is God evil for tolerating evil us? The answer is a resounding NO and the reason is time. God WILL judge all evil at the end of time. He is choosing merciful forbearance while time lasts because redeeming us results in overwhelming positive good! Not because we are good, but because God is good and because through Christ we can wear God's very goodness ourselves! We will one day be LIKE CHRIST in righteousness.
K
We are talking about two different things. I am referring to the permanent eradication of all evil via eliminating free will. You are referring to temporal destruction of evil via smiting. Obviously God smote evil at various points in history. But you would agree (later in your post, you state) that He still allows evil to exist in our world, which means it has not been entirely eradicated. We are simply not discussing the same thing.
What about Noah? And other godly people? They weren't good?
By the way, here is how the existence of Noah is reconciled with what you quoted from Romans: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/have-all-people-sinned-or-not/
I agree and I believe this process is called sanctification.
What about Noah? And other godly people? They weren't good?
By the way, here is how the existence of Noah is reconciled with what you quoted from Romans: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/have-all-people-sinned-or-not/
I agree and I believe this process is called sanctification.
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Before answering this let me just say that I appreciate the "real person" way that you present yourself. I got a kick out of the way you answered FaithWillDo "Dude I'm not reading all that".. LOL
I'm sure I tend towards answering too matter-of-factly, but I'm finding value in expressing my humanity once in a while. Don't let go of yours in the BDF. It's an asset.
OK.. in answering the quoted portion of your post, I'm just answering from an experience with God, so you can do with it as you see fit. And (at time of typing this) I have no intention to try to back it with many scriptures other than the ones that came to mind as this happened. And I'll only give the details that are pertinent to your musing.
I was lying on my bed when I felt the power of God coming upon me in a way that I knew was so he could teach me something. Basically it was as if his presence was coming into the room.... awesome/pleasant/powerful/inspiring adoration.
I'm a sincerely analytical person (and a bit worried about being worthy to stand before God,) so I was noting what I was experiencing AND checking how I was feeling about it, etc. Was I afraid? No. Did I expect it to last forever? No. Did I feel like I was supposed to do anything? No. Did still I still feel like myself? Yes. (And the important one...) Did I still have "my" sins with me? (not those removed through salvation, but the ones we picked back up because we LIKED them)
...And here's were it connects with your supposition about losing the sinful nature/inclinations...
My answer to the question of "Did I still desire to sin" would be... "Sort of".
As the presence of God grew stronger and stronger I noticed the desires to do specific sins were disappearing. So I focused on that one sin... that "pet" sin... the one the bible refers to as "the sin which doth so easily beset us" (Heb. 12:1) I assume it's different for each of us, but I knew mine. So I checked to see if it was still present... if I still had the desire towards it...
And at first, Yes. It held on longer than any others... but eventually the desire for it, too disappeared. I can only liken it to a fly clinging desparately to a windshield as a car accelerates. It may hang on for a little while, but if we're heading towards interstate speeds, it's only a matter of time until FLIT.. and it's gone. I even wondered where that desire went because it was GONE.
All had been replaced with the sincere desire to do ONLY what was right and pleasing to God. And I remembered the scripture that says "In his presence is fullness of joy". Then it was over. The presence and power lifted, and I was left clawing at the sky trying to keep it.. LOL
So I have little doubt that every desire to sin will be utter replaced with sincere desire to do only that which is good and pleasant in his sight (at least in those who are ultimately invited into his presence).
I hope that was at least interesting, and hopefully even beneficial.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'm sure I tend towards answering too matter-of-factly, but I'm finding value in expressing my humanity once in a while. Don't let go of yours in the BDF. It's an asset.
OK.. in answering the quoted portion of your post, I'm just answering from an experience with God, so you can do with it as you see fit. And (at time of typing this) I have no intention to try to back it with many scriptures other than the ones that came to mind as this happened. And I'll only give the details that are pertinent to your musing.
I was lying on my bed when I felt the power of God coming upon me in a way that I knew was so he could teach me something. Basically it was as if his presence was coming into the room.... awesome/pleasant/powerful/inspiring adoration.
I'm a sincerely analytical person (and a bit worried about being worthy to stand before God,) so I was noting what I was experiencing AND checking how I was feeling about it, etc. Was I afraid? No. Did I expect it to last forever? No. Did I feel like I was supposed to do anything? No. Did still I still feel like myself? Yes. (And the important one...) Did I still have "my" sins with me? (not those removed through salvation, but the ones we picked back up because we LIKED them)
...And here's were it connects with your supposition about losing the sinful nature/inclinations...
My answer to the question of "Did I still desire to sin" would be... "Sort of".
As the presence of God grew stronger and stronger I noticed the desires to do specific sins were disappearing. So I focused on that one sin... that "pet" sin... the one the bible refers to as "the sin which doth so easily beset us" (Heb. 12:1) I assume it's different for each of us, but I knew mine. So I checked to see if it was still present... if I still had the desire towards it...
And at first, Yes. It held on longer than any others... but eventually the desire for it, too disappeared. I can only liken it to a fly clinging desparately to a windshield as a car accelerates. It may hang on for a little while, but if we're heading towards interstate speeds, it's only a matter of time until FLIT.. and it's gone. I even wondered where that desire went because it was GONE.
All had been replaced with the sincere desire to do ONLY what was right and pleasing to God. And I remembered the scripture that says "In his presence is fullness of joy". Then it was over. The presence and power lifted, and I was left clawing at the sky trying to keep it.. LOL
So I have little doubt that every desire to sin will be utter replaced with sincere desire to do only that which is good and pleasant in his sight (at least in those who are ultimately invited into his presence).
I hope that was at least interesting, and hopefully even beneficial.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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