Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Didn't have to cut Romans 10 out.
In your desire to re-write the bible what have you done with Rom 9:18? And the story of Noah? And Jacob and Esau? And David and Saul? And Moses and Pharoah?
Didn't have to cut Romans 10 out.
In your desire to re-write the bible what have you done with Rom 9:18? And the story of Noah? And Jacob and Esau? And David and Saul? And Moses and Pharoah?
So, because the word "elect" is not there then the verse cannot be defining what election is?
I know you will have to use your brain because it is not spelled out for you.
If Salvation is not from you and Grace is not from you and Faith is not from you, it is all from God, then HOW can a person be saved if they are not CHOSEN (elect) by God?
They can't.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I know you will have to use your brain because it is not spelled out for you.
If Salvation is not from you and Grace is not from you and Faith is not from you, it is all from God, then HOW can a person be saved if they are not CHOSEN (elect) by God?
They can't.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Then you've had to cut Rom 10:10 out of your Bible, because this verse says that "man believes from his heart".
Of course you need to. It refutes your views. And Ezek doesn't help out your view either. The verse simply notes what being regenerated or born again is about. It says nothing about God giving people faith.
Well, let's see what the verse says before you express your fantasies.
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
So you think this verse leads you to believe that I have a desire to "re-write the Bible"??
Here's a verse that goes along with Rom 9:18. In fact, it specifically shows to whom God will "have mercy" on.
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
I'm guessing that you were unaware of this verse. Red words refer to those who need God's mercy and what they must do.
Blue words refers to God's response to the wicked/unrighteous based on their doing what the red words say.
Seems this is another verse you need to cut out of your Bible, since it doesn't agree with your views.
Please, tell me about them. And how they support your calvinism. I'm not aware that they do.
Then you've had to cut Rom 10:10 out of your Bible, because this verse says that "man believes from his heart".
Of course you need to. It refutes your views. And Ezek doesn't help out your view either. The verse simply notes what being regenerated or born again is about. It says nothing about God giving people faith.
Well, let's see what the verse says before you express your fantasies.
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
So you think this verse leads you to believe that I have a desire to "re-write the Bible"??
Here's a verse that goes along with Rom 9:18. In fact, it specifically shows to whom God will "have mercy" on.
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
I'm guessing that you were unaware of this verse. Red words refer to those who need God's mercy and what they must do.
Blue words refers to God's response to the wicked/unrighteous based on their doing what the red words say.
Seems this is another verse you need to cut out of your Bible, since it doesn't agree with your views.
Please, tell me about them. And how they support your calvinism. I'm not aware that they do.
This reveals a very poor understanding of the meaning of words then.
The point is that God has chosen all believers to serve Him. Too many believers, under the sway of calvinism, think that only those called to the ministry are chosen to serve Him. All they do is warm pews.
If they only knew that God has called ALL believers for service, maybe they would get off their butts and get involved.
It is you who is not getting this. I've given multiple examples of people chosen for specific service. All you've done is claim that election is to salvation, but without ANY examples from Scripture.
Let's look at Paul's election in some detail.
Paul was elected to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.
Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.
Rom 15:25 - Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.
1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.
Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man
Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15. Also v.23
1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
So, in Paul, we see that election is analogous to being "appointed", being a "servant", being "commissioned", and being "assigned".
I may have missed a few verses, but this list certainly makes clear what election is for.
And not any verse saying that Paul was chosen to salvation.
The point is that God has chosen all believers to serve Him. Too many believers, under the sway of calvinism, think that only those called to the ministry are chosen to serve Him. All they do is warm pews.
If they only knew that God has called ALL believers for service, maybe they would get off their butts and get involved.
It is you who is not getting this. I've given multiple examples of people chosen for specific service. All you've done is claim that election is to salvation, but without ANY examples from Scripture.
Let's look at Paul's election in some detail.
Paul was elected to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.
Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.
Rom 15:25 - Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.
1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.
Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man
Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15. Also v.23
1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
So, in Paul, we see that election is analogous to being "appointed", being a "servant", being "commissioned", and being "assigned".
I may have missed a few verses, but this list certainly makes clear what election is for.
And not any verse saying that Paul was chosen to salvation.
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What you apparently aren't seeing is that God's plan is to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21. So, in that sense, God does choose who He will save. He chooses to save believers. And that means that God's choice for salvation is conditioned upon FAITH.
Thank you for a splendid verse that spells out the purpose of Jesus' election of the 11 disciples: to bear fruit.
In black and white! Service! You just can't get around it. Election is to service and this verse clearly spells that out. Just as John 6:70 spells out the specifics of why Judas was also chosen.
Thank you for a splendid verse that spells out the purpose of Jesus' election of the 11 disciples: to bear fruit.
In black and white! Service! You just can't get around it. Election is to service and this verse clearly spells that out. Just as John 6:70 spells out the specifics of why Judas was also chosen.
Your questions are really stupid. So, what does that phrase refer to? Of course, being a calvinist, you will presume it refers back to one's faith. And, of course, you'd be wrong.
If refers back to being saved. iow, people DON'T save themselves.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
What is not "from youselves" is our salvation. And Rom 10:10 says that "man believes from his heart", so we know that our faith comes from within ourselves. Even though calvinists are ignorant of this fact.
If refers back to being saved. iow, people DON'T save themselves.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
What is not "from youselves" is our salvation. And Rom 10:10 says that "man believes from his heart", so we know that our faith comes from within ourselves. Even though calvinists are ignorant of this fact.
Are you just severely dumb? Seriously?
You JUST stated that man believes from his heart.
Then I SHOW with Scripture that God gives us a New Heart of Flesh and you say it says NOTHING about God giving people faith.
Do you just not realize that belief and faith are the same thing? This is getting ridiculous.
If God has mercy on who He will have mercy and Hardens who He will Harden then who are they who forsake their ways???
Those who God has CHOSEN to have mercy on.
And not of yourselves really trips you people up. How do people CAUSE God to save them if it is not of themselves???? How do they forsake their ways and turn to the Lord if there is nothing within them that can grant this???
Its ok. I already know you don't know the answer. If you could understand scripture you already would have by now.
You JUST stated that man believes from his heart.
Then I SHOW with Scripture that God gives us a New Heart of Flesh and you say it says NOTHING about God giving people faith.
Do you just not realize that belief and faith are the same thing? This is getting ridiculous.
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
So you think this verse leads you to believe that I have a desire to "re-write the Bible"??
Here's a verse that goes along with Rom 9:18. In fact, it specifically shows to whom God will "have mercy" on.
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
I'm guessing that you were unaware of this verse. Red words refer to those who need God's mercy and what they must do.
Blue words refers to God's response to the wicked/unrighteous based on their doing what the red words say.
Seems this is another verse you need to cut out of your Bible, since it doesn't agree with your views.
So you think this verse leads you to believe that I have a desire to "re-write the Bible"??
Here's a verse that goes along with Rom 9:18. In fact, it specifically shows to whom God will "have mercy" on.
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
I'm guessing that you were unaware of this verse. Red words refer to those who need God's mercy and what they must do.
Blue words refers to God's response to the wicked/unrighteous based on their doing what the red words say.
Seems this is another verse you need to cut out of your Bible, since it doesn't agree with your views.
If God has mercy on who He will have mercy and Hardens who He will Harden then who are they who forsake their ways???
Those who God has CHOSEN to have mercy on.
And not of yourselves really trips you people up. How do people CAUSE God to save them if it is not of themselves???? How do they forsake their ways and turn to the Lord if there is nothing within them that can grant this???
Its ok. I already know you don't know the answer. If you could understand scripture you already would have by now.
Context, context, context...Ezekiel is prophesying about the nation of Israel when the Messiah shows up as King. At the second coming, the nation of Israel will turn to the Lord and He will give them a new heart. Don't equate the body of Christ with the national promises of Israel.
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