Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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No, you haven't taught me anything. You may think you have. That is quite different.
I'll keep saying it UNTIL you finally do actually teach me something from Scripture.
This is just a cheap shot smokescreen to avoid having to actually produce evidence for your claims.
Since you DON'T provide any evidence, all you can do is:
1. claim you have
2. claim that I don't want to see the evidence.
Oh, I've acknowledged the facts all right. Election is to service, which I proved by giving many examples of those chosen and WHAT they were chosen for.
What examples have you provided that clearly states the purpose of election to be for salvation?
Hm?
I'll keep saying it UNTIL you finally do actually teach me something from Scripture.
This is just a cheap shot smokescreen to avoid having to actually produce evidence for your claims.
Since you DON'T provide any evidence, all you can do is:
1. claim you have
2. claim that I don't want to see the evidence.
Oh, I've acknowledged the facts all right. Election is to service, which I proved by giving many examples of those chosen and WHAT they were chosen for.
What examples have you provided that clearly states the purpose of election to be for salvation?
Hm?
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Okay, thinking is going to be a necessity to understand my reply. The exact same word doesn't have to be used to mean the same thing - there is more than one way to say something - that is what the highlighted words represent: "called to be saints", "grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ", they speak of election.
[1Co 1:2 KJV] 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
and
[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
Yeah, so? If they were true believers, and Paul tells us they were, then they were of the Elect. Sure, they didn't yet know all doctrine about Christianity and needed correction, but neither was that the primary point. Paul was instructing regarding correct doctrine. The faith and understanding of those saved grows over time. The difference between them and the unsaved is the unsaved don't understand, give any value to it, or don't take it to heart.
[1Co 3:16 KJV]
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
I did and, no, it doesn't. It means saved. In God's eyes, through Christ, they are perfect: they are sinless.
Perfect
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature
It means spiritually completed.
The "wisdom of this world" is not of Christ as Saviour.
Exactly. Paul preached their faith is in God's power, not their power. Spiritual wisdom is increased through the teaching of biblical
doctrine, but only those of the elect, will/can hear it with spiritual ears.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
No. It is referring to the unsaved - natural man is representative of the unsaved, not the saved. Everyone born into this world is a natural man. This verse teaches that unless we become saved/born again by God, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to know things spiritual - the things that are of the Holy Spirit. However, should God save us, from that, we receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit -- that being the only way to receive it. So, being within that state, it will be impossible for us to truly understand/comprehend Christ and His salvation.
[1Co 1:2 KJV] 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
and
[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
Yeah, so? If they were true believers, and Paul tells us they were, then they were of the Elect. Sure, they didn't yet know all doctrine about Christianity and needed correction, but neither was that the primary point. Paul was instructing regarding correct doctrine. The faith and understanding of those saved grows over time. The difference between them and the unsaved is the unsaved don't understand, give any value to it, or don't take it to heart.
[1Co 3:16 KJV]
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
I did and, no, it doesn't. It means saved. In God's eyes, through Christ, they are perfect: they are sinless.
Perfect
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature
It means spiritually completed.
The "wisdom of this world" is not of Christ as Saviour.
Exactly. Paul preached their faith is in God's power, not their power. Spiritual wisdom is increased through the teaching of biblical
doctrine, but only those of the elect, will/can hear it with spiritual ears.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
No. It is referring to the unsaved - natural man is representative of the unsaved, not the saved. Everyone born into this world is a natural man. This verse teaches that unless we become saved/born again by God, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to know things spiritual - the things that are of the Holy Spirit. However, should God save us, from that, we receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit -- that being the only way to receive it. So, being within that state, it will be impossible for us to truly understand/comprehend Christ and His salvation.
a condescending comment unbecoming of one who considers himself a believer (elect ???) ... you should memorize Philippians 2:3.iow ... you cannot provide the verse requested.
And you don't want me to go by what God placed in Scripture, I'm just supposed to take your word for it
No they don't. Why do you manipulate God's Word? Let God's Word say what the Author of Scripture wrote:
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
a person is not "sanctified" until he/she is born again. It is at that point that God sets the born again one apart ... separate from the world. Before a person is born again, he/she is part of the mass of humanity ... a descendant of Adam.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I know in your belief system, you have to believe that you were sanctified before you were born again ... with the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ, I believe a person is not sanctified (set apart) until he/she is born again.
the words "to be" are not in the text ... so the verse reads ... to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints.
A person is not referred to as "saint" until he/she is born again. And when you look at the words in Greek, the words "sanctified" and "saint" are closely related.
sanctified = hagiazō
saint = hagios
What makes a believer a saint (hagios) and sanctified (hagiazō) is the gift of Holy Spirit (hagios pneuma) within the born again one. The Holy Spirit is not received until such time as the believer is born again. Once a person receives Holy Spirit, he/she is separated unto God, separate from the world.
The point is that in 1 Cor 2:14, Paul is not speaking of the basics of the gospel ... the Christ and Him crucified of 1 Cor 2:2 Paul could only speak of to those who were not following the Lord Jesus Christ ... those carnal believers who left the Lord Jesus Christ to follow Paul, Apollos, Cephas (1 Cor 1:12).
When we leave the Lord Jesus Christ to follow men and men's reasonings, we do not mature spiritually. We may learn a lot about certain doctrines of men, but that does not help us to grow in the things of God. Doesn't mean we're not born again ... just means we remain in spiritual infancy.
In 1 Cor 2:14, Paul is speaking of the discussions he had with the more mature believers in the church ...
the wisdom among them that are perfect (mature) - 1 Cor 2:6
the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom - 1 Cor 2:7
the things none of the princes of this world knew for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory - 1 Cor 2:8
the things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him - 1 Cor 2:9
the things wherein the more mature believers and Paul compared spiritual things with spiritual - 1 Cor 2:13
"saved" is translated from the Greek word sōzō.
The word "perfect" is translated from the Greek word teleios
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
1 Corinthians 2:6 R. V. marginal reading full-grown
From HELPS Word-studies:
mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey)
From Vine's Expository Dictionary:
"complete, perfect," from telos, "an end," is translated "of full age"
this is a non-issue as all who have posted in this thread are in agreement concerning this point.
1 Corinthians 2:14 does not state that the gospel cannot be understood by those who are not "perfect" (mature). 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that those who are "perfect" (mature) can comprehend/discuss:
the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom - 1 Cor 2:7
the things none of the princes of this world knew for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory - 1 Cor 2:8
the things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him - 1 Cor 2:9
the things wherein the more mature believers and Paul compared spiritual things with spiritual - 1 Cor 2:13
Well, the born again believers who were carnal (1 Cor 2:2) had received Holy Spirit and Paul could only speak to them concerning Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).
The carnal believers of 1 Cor 2:2 could not partake of the discussions Paul had with those who were more mature (the "perfect" of 1 Cor 2:6).
iow ... you cannot provide the verse requested.
And you don't want me to go by what God placed in Scripture, I'm just supposed to take your word for it
And you don't want me to go by what God placed in Scripture, I'm just supposed to take your word for it
[Rom 1:1, 6-7 KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, ...
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Rom 8:28, 30 KJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. ...
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[Rom 9:7, 24 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. ...
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[2Th 2:14 KJV]
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[1Pe 2:9 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[1Pe 5:10 KJV]
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
[2Pe 1:3 KJV]
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
And to be born-again they first had to have been saved.
Look, I'm sure we will never agree on things spiritual because we each start from a different basis, and I have no desire
to go through each post of yours to refute them (although I could), as you are unable to understand what I'm saying anyway. So, at this point, I'm going to choose to terminate this discussion.
Yes, I agree with Freegrace, the sorta of drawing are those who heard and taught or learned the gospel truth. It started with a great truth in v32 of our Lord Jesus as the bread from heaven while believing would have everlasting life as in v. 40, then it ends with the same truth as this comes from the lips of Christ v.47 that " He that believeth on me hath everasting life."
Here, we have a case of those disputer of this world, having wordly wisdom is sheer foolishness and never knew spiritual things or the preaching of the cross. It says in v.18 that Paul and the church at Corinth have it as the power of God by virtue of believing. V21. The foolish persons were those described as wise of this world, prudent of this world, the disputer of this world, who will not stoop down hence, contrasted, those who are humble enough to believe the gospel for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Rom. 1:16. The resting of the power of God depends on the responses if one believes.
Which part of "giveth me" don't you understand? Only those the Father gives to Christ can come to Him and are those who will believe. Christ is saying that belief in Him was from the Father giving them to Christ
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[Jhn 6:44 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:45, 47 KJV]
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[Jhn 6:47 KJV]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[Jhn 6:44 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:45, 47 KJV]
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[Jhn 6:47 KJV]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
The verse says, "neither can he know". In other words, it is impossible for him to know things of the Spirit as a natural man. Belief in that state is impossible to obtain. It is only if God intervenes on his behalf, saves him, renews him, teaches him, gives true faith to him, does he understand things of the Spirit. Faith comes as a fruit of the Spirit.
So you easily spot on, how you contradict yourself and how you just shifted from those people who believes which has been given by the Father to a "belief in him" as such that is given. You are saying it half truth. The giving is not about faith. The giving and coming are the people who will believe.
Your reply doesn't make sense to me - I don't understand your point, please clarify. I said that only those who are given to Christ by the Father, can and do receive things spiritual, including faith, eternal life, etc. Since they are spiritually dead until that happens, it is impossible for them to have/ to know the things of the Spirit - the things of life. In what way is that a "half-truth"?
How can one that is spiritually dead know the things of the spirit? Well, it takes the gospel preaching and the conviction of the Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 and Romans 10:13-17 speaks of this truth, that after hearing the gospel, trusting Christ then they were given life or saved and this is the great truth that Christ and Paul is speaking of.
The gospel of Christ is the power God unto salvation to every one that believeth. All are lost, but the scripture is clear to those who believes and those that are not. John 5:40 speaks of those who refused " and ye will not come to me, that ye might life". Should the come and believe Christ, the lost will be saved.
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Really? No. Question: can someone who is physically dead be convinced into making themselves physically alive? Answer: no.
Same thing with the spiritually dead - they can't make themselves alive spiritually: it has to be given externally. That's why it is called dead in sin: dead is dead, life is life - the physically and spiritually dead cannot give life unto themselves. So, the spiritually dead cannot spiritually hear or trust in Christ of themselves. They must be given spiritual life and from that comes hearing and faith.
Same thing with the spiritually dead - they can't make themselves alive spiritually: it has to be given externally. That's why it is called dead in sin: dead is dead, life is life - the physically and spiritually dead cannot give life unto themselves. So, the spiritually dead cannot spiritually hear or trust in Christ of themselves. They must be given spiritual life and from that comes hearing and faith.
Death means separation. Adam when he sinned it was told that the are good as dead. But what is that meant? Are they incapable of communicating to God? No, only their sin had separated him to the holy God. The great truth is life is given to those who will believe and those who refuse or reject him will be condemnation. John 3:15-18
Not as good as dead, they were dead - dead spiritually:
[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Right, their sin had separated them from God.
Do you think that God saved Adam and Eve? Did Adam and Eve believe? If not, why not? You say they spoke to God, right?
[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Right, their sin had separated them from God.
Do you think that God saved Adam and Eve? Did Adam and Eve believe? If not, why not? You say they spoke to God, right?