Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Those whom God predestined and calls them He makes righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of His Son to them, which (imputation of righteousness) is unto all and upon all who believe, by which they are justified. John Gill commentary on Romans 8:30. (Partial quote). Parenthesis added by me, based on proper reading of context.
I agree with this much. Completely.
I agree with this much. Completely.
The righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all that believe, for their is no difference. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:22-23)
Righteousness of God is the imputed righteousness of Christ unto all who believe. So the basis and grounds of justification are Christ’s righteousness and His work alone, but this does not nullify justification through faith.
like I said, your argument is a false dichotomy.
Righteousness of God is the imputed righteousness of Christ unto all who believe. So the basis and grounds of justification are Christ’s righteousness and His work alone, but this does not nullify justification through faith.
like I said, your argument is a false dichotomy.
-
1
- Show all
Justified by Grace !
That those Christ died for, are Justified before God, by His redeeming death alone, apart from their faith , their believing, or any Gospel obedience whatsover, and while they are still being ungodly Rom 4:5, it is confirmed by this Truth right here Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through[on the account of] the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
NOG:
24 They receive God’s approval freely by an act of his kindness through the price Christ Yeshua paid to set us free from sin.
Basically what this means, God accepts all those Christ died for as Righteous, a Gracious Gift, simply on the basis of Christ Paying the ransom.
That's being Justified by Grace, a Free Gift, not offered, not made available, but a Divine Reckoning in the Mind of God for us Rom 8:31-34
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 7
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
God does not lay any charge against them for whom Christ paid the ransom for, and that's Justification for them freely because of the Redemption in Christ Jesus !
The redemption is His Blood payment, as a result of His Offering Himself in their stead and behalf, to satisfy God's Law and Justice against all their sins they sinned against His Law. God has nothing to charge them with, they are totally forgiven through His Blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Remission of sins is the result of the shedding of the blood ! Remission means:
a sending away, a letting go, a release, pardon, complete forgiveness.
It s a setting free of sin, a Justification, being made free from sin as in Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
That word freed[dikaioō] means :
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
It can read:
for he that hath died is justified from sin.
7 For someone who has died has been cleared from sin.
They died in the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. They died in Him Representativley in the same way they died representatively in Adam Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All for whom Christ died, they died with Him, Paul concludes that here 2 Cor 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:or
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;ASV
So that's why Paul writes Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Having died [with Christ] they have been Justified from sin !
Eph 1:7
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
This is actually the same thing Paul writes in Rom 3:24, except He emphasizes forgiveness of sins for Justification or being Justified by His Grace through Redemption.
Eph 1:7 Jesus Christ has given his blood [died] to make us free. He has forgiven us for our wrong ways. We have been put right with God freely because of his great kindness.WEB
Now this Justification by Grace has absolutely nothing to do with anything the benefactors did, thought or said, in fact in regards to them it [Justification] was without cause and it was undeserved It is solely based upon Christ's Death/ Blood shed for them.
That's why Paul says later that Christ was raised again for our Justification Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].
Why ? Because of the redemption through His Blood ! So being Justified by His Grace freely through redemption, is not the same as being Justified by Faith, unless we do mean by faith, Christ's Faithfulness in shedding His Blood !
That those Christ died for, are Justified before God, by His redeeming death alone, apart from their faith , their believing, or any Gospel obedience whatsover, and while they are still being ungodly Rom 4:5, it is confirmed by this Truth right here Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through[on the account of] the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
NOG:
24 They receive God’s approval freely by an act of his kindness through the price Christ Yeshua paid to set us free from sin.
Basically what this means, God accepts all those Christ died for as Righteous, a Gracious Gift, simply on the basis of Christ Paying the ransom.
That's being Justified by Grace, a Free Gift, not offered, not made available, but a Divine Reckoning in the Mind of God for us Rom 8:31-34
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 7
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
God does not lay any charge against them for whom Christ paid the ransom for, and that's Justification for them freely because of the Redemption in Christ Jesus !
The redemption is His Blood payment, as a result of His Offering Himself in their stead and behalf, to satisfy God's Law and Justice against all their sins they sinned against His Law. God has nothing to charge them with, they are totally forgiven through His Blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Remission of sins is the result of the shedding of the blood ! Remission means:
a sending away, a letting go, a release, pardon, complete forgiveness.
It s a setting free of sin, a Justification, being made free from sin as in Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
That word freed[dikaioō] means :
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
It can read:
for he that hath died is justified from sin.
7 For someone who has died has been cleared from sin.
They died in the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. They died in Him Representativley in the same way they died representatively in Adam Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All for whom Christ died, they died with Him, Paul concludes that here 2 Cor 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:or
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;ASV
So that's why Paul writes Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Having died [with Christ] they have been Justified from sin !
Eph 1:7
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
This is actually the same thing Paul writes in Rom 3:24, except He emphasizes forgiveness of sins for Justification or being Justified by His Grace through Redemption.
Eph 1:7 Jesus Christ has given his blood [died] to make us free. He has forgiven us for our wrong ways. We have been put right with God freely because of his great kindness.WEB
Now this Justification by Grace has absolutely nothing to do with anything the benefactors did, thought or said, in fact in regards to them it [Justification] was without cause and it was undeserved It is solely based upon Christ's Death/ Blood shed for them.
That's why Paul says later that Christ was raised again for our Justification Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].
Why ? Because of the redemption through His Blood ! So being Justified by His Grace freely through redemption, is not the same as being Justified by Faith, unless we do mean by faith, Christ's Faithfulness in shedding His Blood !
Well since you hold to "justified before birth" and you say you hold to Gill's view, which states also "justified in time at one's calling" that makes two justifications.
It's not that I'm not paying attention. It's just that your position is very poorly conceived and contradictory.
You say that to teach justification by faith is to not believe in justification being based on Christ's work alone, and then you turn around and say you teach justification by faith, for example.
It's not that I'm not paying attention. It's just that your position is very poorly conceived and contradictory.
You say that to teach justification by faith is to not believe in justification being based on Christ's work alone, and then you turn around and say you teach justification by faith, for example.
I agree with this...
Those whom God predestined and calls them He makes righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of His Son to them, which (imputation of righteousness) is unto all and upon all who believe, by which they are justified. John Gill commentary
Those whom God calls, He makes righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of His Son. (that's calling and justification). Notice calling is first.
unto all and upon all who believe. (that's who is justified. )
Those whom God predestined and calls them He makes righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of His Son to them, which (imputation of righteousness) is unto all and upon all who believe, by which they are justified. John Gill commentary
Those whom God calls, He makes righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of His Son. (that's calling and justification). Notice calling is first.
unto all and upon all who believe. (that's who is justified. )
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Paul says that righteousness (of Christ) is imputed to us if WE BELIEVE. You say that righteousness is imputed to us before we are born. I'll go with Paul.
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Paul says that righteousness (of Christ) is imputed to us if WE BELIEVE. You say that righteousness is imputed to us before we are born. I'll go with Paul.
Here is what you are doing...
Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be has been imputed to us who believe in Him who were justified before we were born by the one who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ by being justified before he was born, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be because we have already been justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be has been imputed to us who believe in Him who were justified before we were born by the one who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ by being justified before he was born, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be because we have already been justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
These verses apply to those who love the Lord, who are the CALLED according to His Purpose.
You left this part out...24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Romans 5 is a continuation of the discussion of justification by faith in chapter four. Romans 5 flows out of chapter four. See verse one.
a couple verses later...17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
So anyone and everyone who is IN CHRIST is a new creature. When does one become a new creature?
Who's he talking to? Saints and faithful. (verse 1)
But you removed this verse from it's context... 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
You left this part out...24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Romans 5 is a continuation of the discussion of justification by faith in chapter four. Romans 5 flows out of chapter four. See verse one.
a couple verses later...17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
So anyone and everyone who is IN CHRIST is a new creature. When does one become a new creature?
Who's he talking to? Saints and faithful. (verse 1)
But you removed this verse from it's context... 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Quit ripping verses out of context in order to prop up your dogma ...What is written in Romans 4:6-8 is to be understood in light of what is written in Romans 4:1-7. However, if you want to start reading in Romans 4:6-8, go back and read what David wrote in Psalm 32 in order to fully comprehend Romans 4:6-8:
Psalm 32:
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.
Your problem is that you consider "faith" on the part of mankind to be "works" when God clearly tells us in His Word that faith is not works. Believe what God says about faith and quit holding to a dogma which contradicts what God holds true. Bring your thoughts into alignment with what is written in Scripture ... do not manipulate Scripture to conform to your thoughts.
With the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ, no one is "afore Righteous" ... righteousness is imputed when God tells us righteousness is imputed (and God tells us righteousness is imputed when we believe):
Romans
4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
what you think you "know" does not align with Scripture ...
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
-
1
- Show all
again you rip Romans 3:24 from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.Romans 3:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
those who believe (vs 22) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (vs 24).
a reading the full context in Romans 4 reveals the error of your dogma:
Romans
4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
-
1
- Show all
again you rip Romans 3:24 from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.Romans 3:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
those who believe (vs 22) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (vs 24).
a reading the full context in Romans 4 reveals the error of your dogma:
Romans
4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ