Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Phoneman-777]

Indeed those sodomites are still burning in hell.
They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Once again, your argument falls to the ground, soundly disproven:

Peter says right there in your NEW TESTAMENT that the wicked are "reserved" for future punishment "unto the day of Judgment" when they are "to be punished".

You got that, friend? "Reserved" and "unto" and "to be" are words that teach the inescapable conclusion that the punishment of the wicked is still future, and not going on right now. Yet, you flippantly type "the Sodomites are burning in hell" and completely ignore Peter's words. That's why I'm an Annihilationist....I can't just ignore passages that destroy my position - I take all the verses together and go where the evidence lies.

Are you going to keep preaching this nonsense that the wicked are at this moment suffering punishment now that I've shown you 2 Peter 2:9 KJV?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Can the soul exist without a body?

Let's ask Genesis 2:7 KJV:

"And God formed man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Dust of the ground BECAME a living Soul."​

Does it not say the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life? Sure it does.

So, if the Soul comes into existence as a consequnece of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, when the Body and the Breath of Life disunion, can the Soul continue to exist?

No more than Light can continue to exist when the Electrical Current is removed from a Bulb, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Man is a tri-part being: body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No, man aka "living Soul" is comprised of TWO parts: the Body and the Breath of Life, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.

But, you say, why does it say, "Body, Soul, and Spirit"? Paul's words are no different than that of a mother telling her children, "I want you to clean the kitchen, bedrooms/bathrooms, the WHOLE house."

Paul wants the Body, the Spirit, the WHOLE Soul to prosper.

 

[Phoneman-777]

What would be the MOST important issue at hand is. "What lesson does the Parable Teach?"

It's teaching that if the Jews don't get their act together, they're going to be cast out and the Gentiles who were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel will become partakers of the promises of Abraham, comforted by the Comforter Holy Spirit, and go forth with the Gospel commission once given to the Jews.

Did that happen? Yes, the Jews blew it, and now they are tormented EXCEEDINGLY while we partake of the promises, the blessings, the covenants, the lively oracles, ALL that was the Jews is now ours, the Church, according to the NT.

THAT'S THE POINT OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS and has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when we die, for the things in the passage cannot and do not take place once people die - they lie in a "state of insensibility" (according to the Baptist Confession of old, which is now discarded by Papal-loving fake Baptist leaders who are probably Jesuit infiltrators which have seduced many like yourself) awaiting the Resurrection of the Just or the Damned, just like Peter says the wicked will do - they are "reserved" to be dealt with "unto the day of Judgment" when they are "to be punished".

 

[Phoneman-777]

i don’t base my assessments on merely literal meanings, but rather what the Spirit is saying. It’s a warning Pm, and we are being spiritually and soulfully self destructive if we don’t take heed to it.

Take heed to what? That's the point.

Anyone who thinks the warning pertains to what happens in the afterlife doesn't understand a thing about what the Bible consistently teaches in the OT and NT agbout the afterlife, because the depiction of the afterlife in the passage about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a depiction of the IMPOSSIBLE.

Therefore, Jesus was telling a parable rich with symbolism which interpretation has to do with something totally different to the afterlife.

 

[Phoneman-777]

so you're left with two choices:

1. you are correct; Christ is a liar teaching doctrines of demons & deceiving the people
2. you are incorrect; your understanding of Genesis 2:7 is flawed

i mean, is it really so hard to guess which choice is the right one?
lol

No, it is YOU who are left with TWO CHOICES:

1) Make Luke 16 literal which has Jesus contradicting Himself and other Bible authors about death.

2) Leave Luke 16 the parable and cause no such contradictions to arise.

Who you gonna believe told the truth about death, the Serpent or God? God said, "Ye shall surely die", but the Serpent said, "Ye shall not SURELY die...you're still going to be alive on another plane of existence, doing things, saying things, knowing things, interacting with the living, etc."

Why are y'all so scared to spend a night in a cemetery? Y'all know them folk are dead....but not SURELY, right?

 

[Phoneman-777]

then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. Exo.21:6

He means until the servant dies.

EXACTLY. And "tormented day and night forever and ever" UNTIL THEY DIE.

When they die, the saying shall come to pass, "...and there shall be NO MORE death, nor sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away."

I can't understand why people can read "the former things are passed away" and then say with a straight face, "the wicked will suffer torment continuously for all eternity". Won't the devil and demons and the wicked be among "the former things"? Good gravy, the entire planet will become a seething Lake of Fire which will burn up everything: the elements, the atmosphere, all creatures, rocks, mountains, etc. Seems like "the former things" are going to pass away" all right.

 

[Phoneman-777]

There are no Gnostic teachings in those books. The 'Apocrypha' was in every Christian Bible until 1828 .

Why did Martin Luther include them?

Why did the Septuagint contain them?

Please answer the questions and these I already asked.

Why did Luther remove 7 books from the Bible?
https://pennbookcenter.com/why-did-martin-luther-remove-7-books-from-the-bible/
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/why...YjLC-fmfT25XZhR1AdGHr0U8pUEELhOEaAlF3EALw_wcB


https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/defending-the-deuterocanonicals-996
https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible

One does teach that Abraham was saved by grace.
Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (First Maccabees 2:52).

My position is they are a historical source used with salt in my coffee.

I still say that which is according to history: they discovered these writings to be contradictory with Scripture and took steps to have them removed, but only after they had been implanted by the Papacy with the belief these writings were inspired.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Since born again Christians believes the Holy Spirit is teaching them, why the disagreements?

Your answer can apply to everyone everywhere.

If the Holy Spirit is going to "guide you (and me) into all truth", it must be of a necessity that we are to be led out of error.

But, as is always the case, Christians often stumble over the truth and fall down, but manage to pick themselves up and keep on going, convincing themselves there was nothing there.

 

[Phoneman-777]

That text has nothing to do with Luke 16 --- puzzled by your interpretation.

The text has EVERYTHING to do with it. Read them side by side, and you'll see.

 

[Phoneman-777]

In Matthew 25:46 if you limit eternal for punishment you also like eternal for life too. The Grammar does not give you a choice to limit one without limiting the other.

I'm not limiting the punishment at all -- the punishment IS eternal, OK???!!!

The punishment IS as eternal as is eternal life for the righteous...but what is the punishment?

What is the punishment? It's DEATH!!! The wages of sin is DEATH, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT.

The ONLY way Jesus could save us from the punishment of a never-ending Lake of Fire is if He were to go to that never ending Lake of Fire, right or wrong? Jesus did NOT suffer being cast into a never-ending Lake of Fire - He suffered DEATH.

He was raised by God from death after He Who knew no sin became sin and suffered the penalty of sin for us - death. Therefore, He can be both Just in sending sinners to an eternal, permanent death from which there'll be no resurrection, but at the same time resurrect from death those who put there trust in Jesus and surrender to His will in repentance.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Doing good works is the fruit of salvation. That is all your text describes.

Eze 18
1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge"? 3 As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die. 5 If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period, 7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not take advance or accrued interest, withholds his hand from iniquity, executes true justice between contending parties, 9 follows my statutes, and is careful to observe my ordinances, acting faithfully—such a one is righteous; he shall surely live, says the Lord God. 10 If he has a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, 11 who does any of these things (though his father does none of them), who eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 takes advance or accrued interest; shall he then live? He shall not. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself. 14 But if this man has a son who sees all the sins that his father has done, considers, and does not do likewise, 15 who does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not wrong anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no advance or accrued interest, observes my ordinances, and follows my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, he dies for his iniquity. 19 Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own. 21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die. 25 Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is unfair." Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair? 26 When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is unfair." O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, all of you according to your ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions; otherwise iniquity will be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God. Turn, then, and live.

Nope, the Apocrypha says giving alms obtains salvation. My deluded Black Hebrew Israelite coworker showed it to me personally. I told him to throw that in the trash because salvation is by grace through faith alone, not of works.

 

[Duckybill]

Right and the wicked don’t have eternal life. The eternal punishment is death with no possibility of resurrection. I hope this has been an enlightening discussion for you.

Romans 6:24 KJV
23For the wages of sin isdeath; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Totally evasive!

 

[Duckybill]

Never would call Jesus a liar. I am saying other things.
Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)

You can't be serious! You are totally ignoring the Scriptures I quoted.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

You're free to ignore the evidence all you want. There are more and more who are coming to a knowledge of the truth about the lie of "eternal torment" - because they see people like you unable to answer the arguments that confront you...like how is it that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the "vengeance of eternal fire" yet they're not burning today and are under the Dead Sea.

They see such unanswerable arguments and they think, "wow, so God truly IS a God of love Who will put out of their misery those who refuse to give up sin and learn to love Him."

The best ammunition against Eternal Torment doctrine is an attack on the Annihilationist messenger instead of addressing the points of his message.

No Scripture? Of course not!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

You're free to ignore the evidence all you want. There are more and more who are coming to a knowledge of the truth about the lie of "eternal torment" - because they see people like you unable to answer the arguments that confront you...like how is it that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the "vengeance of eternal fire" yet they're not burning today and are under the Dead Sea.

They see such unanswerable arguments and they think, "wow, so God truly IS a God of love Who will put out of their misery those who refuse to give up sin and learn to love Him."

The best ammunition against Eternal Torment doctrine is an attack on the Annihilationist messenger instead of addressing the points of his message.

I suggest you study the Bible and see Who God is. God drowned all on Earth but 8 and burned Sodom alive "making them an example".

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

You can't be serious! You are totally ignoring the Scriptures I quoted.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Maybe I was not clear? So I will paraphrase my post.

$Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)
>>>>>>Matt 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The devil and his angels is referring to Rev 12:4 or vica versa and yes I saw the neatly underlined "everlasting fire". Nice.

So let us track this down in Rev 20.

$As per Rev 20
Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
>>>>>> The "everlasting fire" of Rev 20:10 and Matt 25:41 is described in Rev 20:9 as "fire came down from heaven", Why? Because of the devil and his angels reference. I guess if there is a multiverse of hells... er.. I will let you explain it.

$....
When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
>>>>>>> This is the funny part and I am not sure why you didn't understand. Rev 20:14 as per hellmonger's words as I see it,
Death is a like being a ghost, you know the pagan disembodied conscious spirit that can walk and talk.
Hades is hell - I assume that it is foundational concept for hell guys,
the lake of fire - real estate in your hellscape
So let us stick it back into Rev 20:14 as per a hellmonger
"Then the ghosts and hell were thrown into a part of hell, lake side ...."

So when the lake of fire of hell meets the lake of fire of hell, what happens? I can't even imagine it. What is burning what? So loopy that I am getting a headache just thinking about it. I will let you explain.

 

[Amanuensis]

It's teaching that if the Jews don't get their act together, they're going to be cast out and the Gentiles who were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel will become partakers of the promises of Abraham, comforted by the Comforter Holy Spirit, and go forth with the Gospel commission once given to the Jews.

Did that happen? Yes, the Jews blew it, and now they are tormented EXCEEDINGLY while we partake of the promises, the blessings, the covenants, the lively oracles, ALL that was the Jews is now ours, the Church, according to the NT.

THAT'S THE POINT OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS and has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when we die, for the things in the passage cannot and do not take place once people die - they lie in a "state of insensibility" (according to the Baptist Confession of old, which is now discarded by Papal-loving fake Baptist leaders who are probably Jesuit infiltrators which have seduced many like yourself) awaiting the Resurrection of the Just or the Damned, just like Peter says the wicked will do - they are "reserved" to be dealt with "unto the day of Judgment" when they are "to be punished".

Well it was interesting discovering how SDA people interpret texts. I learned some things. I find it very easy to interpret the texts properly that they are misinterpreting and so I am not really persuaded that they themselves believe their own interpretations. Those scriptures are not hard to understand. Someone is not being honest. And when we recognize that, then we know we are wasting our breath trying to explain hermeneutics.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

To convince people who think that there is no judgment for the homosexaul agenda. Don't forget that God has demonstrated that he has intervened in human history making it know how he will deal with this sort of rebellion, and those that were killed in Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering in the flames of hell and one day those who are in hell will be raised bodily to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, as it says .. both Hell and Death will be cast into the Lake of Fire and that eternal fire will continue as their final place.

It is so clear that no one will be without excuse. Just like the rich mans brothers. And just like all SDA members. Their excuses will be rejected. The scriptures of the New Testament which was a greater revelation are not vague on this topic.

The SDA seems to take this approach... The New Testament Scriptures that give a fuller revelation about eternal punishment must mean something else because the OT writers did not have this revelation.

Which is really dumb. Most Christians understand that Jesus brought a fuller revelation about many things, including salvation and the kingdom of God and also about eternal punishment.

We don't contradict Jesus and Paul's teachings about the afterlife just because Solomon had a limited understanding. But the SDA does. And it is probably due to some kind of carnality in not being able to appreciate the holiness of God. An unwillingness to believe that it is just that the wicked are in eternal torment. That is usually at the heart of the objection.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with that "everlasting fire"? No, they're under the Dead Sea.

Does "eternal redemption" means Jesus will be nailed to a Cross for our redemption over and over every day for all eternity?

Does "eternal judgment" mean "order in the court" over and over -- that the judgment will never end?

Does the text say "everlasting punishMENT" or "everlasting punishING"?

If it said, "punishing", I'd join the Eternal Torment crowd in a heartbeat.

It...says....punishment.


And, what is the punishment? IT'S DEATH!!!!!!!

Unredeemed sinners will face everlasting fire in eternity...which is everlasting punishment...and which is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50,

It is not death, as you say...

The lake of fire is given its definition and description in Revelation 20:10,

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

Maybe I was not clear? So I will paraphrase my post.

$Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)
>>>>>>Matt 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The devil and his angels is referring to Rev 12:4 or vica versa and yes I saw the neatly underlined "everlasting fire". Nice.

So let us track this down in Rev 20.

$As per Rev 20
Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
>>>>>> The "everlasting fire" of Rev 20:10 and Matt 25:41 is described in Rev 20:9 as "fire came down from heaven", Why? Because of the devil and his angels reference. I guess if there is a multiverse of hells... er.. I will let you explain it.

$....
When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
>>>>>>> This is the funny part and I am not sure why you didn't understand. Rev 20:14 as per hellmonger's words as I see it,
Death is a like being a ghost, you know the pagan disembodied conscious spirit that can walk and talk.
Hades is hell - I assume that it is foundational concept for hell guys,
the lake of fire - real estate in your hellscape
So let us stick it back into Rev 20:14 as per a hellmonger
"Then the ghosts and hell were thrown into a part of hell, lake side ...."

So when the lake of fire of hell meets the lake of fire of hell, what happens? I can't even imagine it. What is burning what? So loopy that I am getting a headache just thinking about it. I will let you explain.

According to you Jesus is a "hellmonger".
Matthew 23:33 (NKJV)
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?