Do Jews still believe the Messiah is coming?

[Jocund]

Despite the fact that I've said that more Jews have come to Christ in the past 20 years that in the 2,000 years prior to that, people keep insisting that the Jews continue to reject Christ.
As I said before, anti-semitism is alive and well in the church. Why do people continue to make excuses not to love this group of people? Instead of rejoicing at the salvations, I hear about things like the Talmud. I hear it on a half-dozen forums too!
Historically, the church has had a large anti-Jew sentiment. Many Christians follow Shepherd's Chapel, even though they teach that the Jews in today's Israel were fathered by Satan. Then there's the C.I. groups. I'm just appalled that so many Christians can still be racist.

Your assumption that all Christians are from nonJewish ancestry is racist and antisemitic.

Those of Jewish heritage are free to come to Christ, and even you yourself acknowledge that. There never was an anti-ethnic-Jewish problem in the church, but the hateful antiChristian rhetoric in the Talmud has historically been the number one point of contention. The Talmud as a whole is absolutely incompatible with Christianity. Rejecting the Talmud is not the same as rejecting those of Jewish ethnicity. Rejecting the Talmud is not the same as being antisemitic. But someone can embrace the evil of the Talmud and end up being exactly anti-Jewish and antisemitic.

I assume that anyone defending the Talmud either has not read it or is being disingenuous.

they teach that the Jews in today's Israel were fathered by Satan

Source?

There is scripture that states that not all Jews are actually Jews (but that some are actually of the synagogue of Satan). If you disagree with that notion, you are disagreeing with scripture.

It would be speculative (and even uncompelling) to argue that all that call themselves Jews from a particular geographic area are all Satanists in disguise (especially if there is evidence of some of that group turning to Christ). I would guess that whatever the view of this "Shepard's Chapel" it is probably being taken out of context. I suspect they simply argue that "many from" that area are Satanists in disguise. I've never heard of "Shepard's Chapel" but it would be interesting to see if you can substantiate your claim.

And instead of acknowledging that there are false-Jews, I see some users trying to change the subject to "but there are false-Christians!" The two points aren't mutually exclusive. There are many kinds of pretenders in the world, and many that spread hate in the name of good (woe to them). But we shouldn't pretend that the Talmud and the Rabbinic teachings are a good thing as a whole. Let's call a spade a spade. The Talmud contains evil teachings.

C.I. groups

What is a C.I. group?

 

[Oblio]

The Talmud started out as the oral tradition. There are presently many variations of it. My point was not orthodox Judaism, it was anti-semitism in the church. This thread is getting derailed.

 

[CS1]

The Promise to Abraham God fully intends to keep. Moses is the lawgiver none saved by the law. Abraham Was before the law and was accepted by God because of Faith as Genesis says and Hebrew 11.

 

[JStates]

Right, so this magical Kingdom that you think is going to come out of the sky won't be a problem either.

The age of the real Jews ended in 70 A.D.

We don't want violence against these fake Jews, we just don't like you being clowned into helping them build a Temple that GOD won't be in. That Temple would scream that JESUS did nothing!

You and I agree on a lot of things. I agree that the Third Temple will be erected by the inclusive One World Order religious system and it has nothing to do with God or Jesus Christ.

I'll be honest enough to say that I'm uncertain about some end times topics and am studying them for myself right now. The key thing you and I see differently is I don't believe it can be argued that this time, right now, is the Kingdom of God on Earth.

But we've got a lot in common.

 

[JStates]

I'm not afraid of religious Jews. I know what I believe. However, one unsure of what they believe may be influenced by them.
Christian Identity is a Christian sect. As are other many other schisms. I don't condemn Christians.
Anti-semitism is ungodly. Unless you're a Nazi.

Anti- anyone on the basis of "race" is ungodly, agreed.

But something needs to be said here. There's an unspoken doctrine in modern society that if a certain group was historically victimized in the past, that they should be free of any scrutiny or criticism of their behavior in the present. This is a fallacy.

There are definitely people who play the race card to worm out of justified criticism of their personal wickedness. I'm just going to say that in the case of black and Jews this happens a lot.

If I criticize someone justifiably for their personal misconduct, IT IS NOT RACISM even if they are a "racial" minority.

 

[JStates]

Premills lust after a beast king MESSIAH ...just like Jews did.

What do you mean when you say "beast king Messiah"? Do you mean a conquering King who will JUDGE wickedness? I'm trying to understand your perspective, but you need to be specific.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

What do you mean when you say "beast king Messiah"? Do you mean a conquering King who will JUDGE wickedness? I'm trying to understand your perspective, but you need to be specific.

Understand that JESUS will never be a beast king with your weird idea of what the Rod of Iron should be.

one of these days, someone is going to actually read this link:

https://garretthjonesauthor.medium....les-with-is-not-what-you-thought-8c75f6b67143

 

[JStates]

Understand that JESUS will never be a beast king with your weird idea of what the Rod of Iron should be.

one of these days, someone is going to actually read this link:

https://garretthjonesauthor.medium....les-with-is-not-what-you-thought-8c75f6b67143

His interpretation is flawed. Firstly, he leans on the untrustworthy NIV Bible. Please look up the free PDF book "Serious Omissions in the NIV Bible" by Keith Piper.

Secondly, Psalm 2 is pretty clear in its context.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

The rod is a ruling scepter, it is iron because iron was the pinnacle strong metal at the time; the connotation and context are clear that those who resist the Lordship of the Son will be destroyed.

The rod of iron CANNOT be a shepherd's staff as your author surmises. I have used an iron demolition bar to dig holes and demolish structures. It is very heavy, too heavy for a shepherd to carry around all day. Besides, iron was a valuable commodity in the ancient world; a shepherd would not have a lot of extra iron to be making shepherd's crooks out of. No, a shepherd used wooden implements like we do today for hiking sticks.

Finally, there is THIS:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

This figure is Christ. He came first as a humble suffering servant. When He returns, it will be as a conquering King.

 

[Oblio]

Anti- anyone on the basis of "race" is ungodly, agreed.

But something needs to be said here. There's an unspoken doctrine in modern society that if a certain group was historically victimized in the past, that they should be free of any scrutiny or criticism of their behavior in the present. This is a fallacy.

There are definitely people who play the race card to worm out of justified criticism of their personal wickedness. I'm just going to say that in the case of black and Jews this happens a lot.

If I criticize someone justifiably for their personal misconduct, IT IS NOT RACISM even if they are a "racial" minority.

We should all be judged as individuals, upon our behavior. I once inadvertently joined a Christian group that seemed good...until I came across a thread where black people were assumed to be Nephilim. After I told them that they should be ashamed of themselves, I left. We need to stand against all forms of injustice. We are all people.

 

[SomeDisciple]

The rod of iron CANNOT be a shepherd's staff as your author surmises.

Well, the Shepard's rod and the Shepard's staff are two different things (from what I understand). The "staff" has the hook that can gently move the sheep around and whatnot- but the Rod is a weapon. Even the author of that article says that it's to ward off predators... so I don't know why he goes from talking about smashing bad guys to "Jesus is gonna love, and tenderly guide the nations". No... he's gonna use that Rod to smash people that don't respond to the staff.

I've heard that the Rod in Psalm 2 is the king's ruling scepter as well, and that may or may not be the case. I don't know if a shepard's rod was actually made of iron, though- I think you're right, it would probably be pretty expensive and heavy for a shepard to be carrying around, when a nice piece of wood will do for smacking up predatory animals.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

This Scripture is about 70 A.D.

i can't handle how literal Premills are with everything. Is The HOLY SPIRIT Interpreting anything for you?

 

[SomeDisciple]

This Scripture is about 70 A.D.

I don't think it can be... "the nations" in verse 15 never refers to Israel anywhere else in the scriptures- and is interchangeable with the word "gentiles".

 

[Jocund]

We should all be judged as individuals, upon our behavior. I once inadvertently joined a Christian group that seemed good...until I came across a thread where black people were assumed to be Nephilim. After I told them that they should be ashamed of themselves, I left. We need to stand against all forms of injustice. We are all people.

I've never encountered that concept before. Usually nephilim are depicted as giant-like. The comparison is unusual. I've seen that comparison drawn with Scotland highlanders (particularly redheaded ones that exceed 6'6") It's a benign concept by itself unless it is connected with the implication that such a person, based on their appearance alone, could be categorized into "saved" vs. "not saved" (e.g. "gingers don't have souls"). This would contradict biblical concepts such as the tares and wheat, and that "you will know them by their fruit".

Rather than appealing to the emotions of others by shaming, I find there has always been great value in exploring a topic rationally to make a case for why an interpretation is uncompelling (or self-defeating).

need to stand against all forms of injustice

If your intention is to stand against injustice, you would stand against the Talmud and shame those that would use the Talmud as a moral compass. Unless of course you feel that only some injustice matters? The Talmud teaches that nonJews aren't really people.

 

[ewq1938]

Premills lust after a beast king MESSIAH ...just like Jews did.

Amills lust after a beast king MESSIAH ...just like Jews did.

The Jews expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amills make the same error the Jews did wanting the rule to happen now but the truth is in Premill because the rule comes in the future.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, the Shepard's rod and the Shepard's staff are two different things (from what I understand). The "staff" has the hook that can gently move the sheep around and whatnot- but the Rod is a weapon. Even the author of that article says that it's to ward off predators... so I don't know why he goes from talking about smashing bad guys to "Jesus is gonna love, and tenderly guide the nations". No... he's gonna use that Rod to smash people that don't respond to the staff.

Nope. He will RULE with that rod so why not see what the Greek word means?


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.


Barnes:

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.

RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901


So, all the evidence shows that these people are cared for like how a Shepherd cares for his flock.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

The New Covenant was Confirmed in the last week.


Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:


33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Premills, it says "for they shall all know me," are you going to be literal and say there isn't a New Covenant if everyone isn't Christian?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Amills lust after a beast king MESSIAH ...just like Jews did.

The Jews expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amills make the same error the Jews did wanting the rule to happen now but the truth is in Premill because the rule comes in the future.

You know i'm someone attacking that sin you refuse to give up ...so this response is your smokescreen to protect it.

 

[ewq1938]

You know i'm someone attacking that sin you refuse to give up ...so this response is your smokescreen to protect it.

You need to focus on your own sin and stop imagining sin in others. All that is is another pathetic ad hominem. Most of your posts are that way.

 

[JStates]

Well, the Shepard's rod and the Shepard's staff are two different things (from what I understand). The "staff" has the hook that can gently move the sheep around and whatnot- but the Rod is a weapon. Even the author of that article says that it's to ward off predators... so I don't know why he goes from talking about smashing bad guys to "Jesus is gonna love, and tenderly guide the nations". No... he's gonna use that Rod to smash people that don't respond to the staff.

I've heard that the Rod in Psalm 2 is the king's ruling scepter as well, and that may or may not be the case. I don't know if a shepard's rod was actually made of iron, though- I think you're right, it would probably be pretty expensive and heavy for a shepard to be carrying around, when a nice piece of wood will do for smacking up predatory animals.

Yes, I've heard that too somewhere. The same principle applies, though. Look at actual melee weapons: the heads or blades are made of metal, but with long weapons like spears the haft or shaft is wood to reduce weight. Even with a sword, the metal is as streamlined as possible. Many swords have lightening grooves so they don't weigh as much. An iron pry bar is too heavy to use as a weapon.

 

[ewq1938]

An iron pry bar is too heavy to use as a weapon.

The people who will wield the rod of iron will be immortal so weight is not an issue.