The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

You just don't get it man. The Church has already been gathered/raptured (those still living and those deceased......all of them) at least seven years before the Second Coming.

Correct.

Matthew 24 STARTS OUT with "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"... and Paul states that "the DOTL *ARRIVES*" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" and then goes on to convey the RELATION (time-wise / SEQUENCE-wise) of "our Rapture" TO THAT OF the TIME PERIOD known as "the DOTL" (which INCLUDES the 7 TRIB yrs!) That is, that WE will not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL [/TRIB-aspect]"... we will NOT BE here for it


(This is ALSO what Rev5:9's wording "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." means, and this is stated BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "7 yrs").



Matthew 24:4 and thereafter tells what will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"!

 

[cv5]

It don't. Scripture states the exact opposite. We will be called up together with them.

1Thess. 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Church is ONE and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture.
Those verses are the "done" part.

THEN (2 Thes 2) the Restrainer will "drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" (Lam 2:3), and the 70th week birth pangs/seals begin. The Church age is over and the eschatological gears switch back to Israel per Rom 11:25.

Dead easy. Quite frankly I'm shocked that people fail to comprehend the succinct simplicity of it all.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Correct.

Matthew 24 STARTS OUT with "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"... and Paul states that "the DOTL *ARRIVES*" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" and then goes on to convey the RELATION (time-wise / SEQUENCE-wise) of "our Rapture" TO THAT OF the TIME PERIOD known as "the DOTL" (which INCLUDES the 7 TRIB yrs!) That is, that WE will not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL [/TRIB-aspect]"... we will NOT BE here for it


(This is ALSO what Rev5:9's wording "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." means, and this is stated BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "7 yrs")

Matt 24 begins with Destruction of Temple + Daniel [Daly sacrifice Ends] which happens in 70 A.D.

You don't even know the beginning of Matt 24 and I should listen to your nonsense?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

1ofthem

When Divine Water Mark and cv5 quote you [or anyone Pre-Trib follower], feel their spirit and TEST IT!

You can feel their distress, confusion, and the lies they believe in order to believe such non Biblical Garbage!

Not one of them answers if when Christ Returns He gathers only the Living.

They completely know they are WRONG and are trying to avoid it and change the topic!

Just read their responses!

They are DEFEATED and now scrambling for LIES!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matt 24 begins with Destruction of Temple + Daniel [Daly sacrifice Ends] which happens in 70 A.D.
You don't even know the beginning of Matt 24 and I should listen to your nonsense?

The QUESTION regarding that, YES.

The RESPONSE to that is found [ONLY IN] the Luke 21:12-24a SECTION OF the Olivet Discourse,

...and verse 12 states CLEARLY that "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL THESE BEGINNING OF BIRTH PANGS (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 [prior to v.12's info])] the 70ad events spelled out in vv.12-24a MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST...



... but you are completely DISREGARDING this "chronology" that JESUS PROVIDES here!!



Think about it. [why could that be??]





--the SEQUENCE IS:

1) "the 70ad events" (spelled out in Lk21:12-24a,b,__ [ONLY!!])

2) "the beginning OF BIRTH PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8... AND Lk21:8-11 DESCRIBED)


... because of what VERSE 12 TELLS US.



Your viewpoint does not explain nor grasp this.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

The QUESTION regarding that, YES.

The RESPONSE to that is found [ONLY IN] the Luke 21:12-24a SECTION OF the Olivet Discourse,

...and verse 12 states CLEARLY that "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL THESE BEGINNING OF BIRTH PANGS (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11)] the 70ad events spelled out in vv.12-24a MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST...



... but you are completely DISREGARDING this "chronology" that JESUS PROVIDES here!!



Think about it. [why could that be??]

When You cannot answer when Christ Returns, does He gather only the Living to prove your False Pre-Trib Rapture, I do not need to read anything else you have to offer!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Then you can remain oblivious to the CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE that Jesus Himself spells out in His Olivet Discourse... whereas there are others in this thread who DO grasp His words there and have also made posts relating to that Subject (which I'm certain you've also ignored).



Believe what you wish, @Heaven_Bound.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

^ Then you can remain oblivious to the CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE that Jesus Himself spells out in His Olivet Discourse... whereas there are others in this thread who DO grasp His words there and have also made posts relating to that Subject (which I'm certain you've also ignored).



Believe what you wish, @Heaven_Bound.

No, a well known Herectic created this doctrine.

So, at Christ's Second Coming, does He gather both the Dead and Living, or just the Living?

Clearly, you do not know Your Bible at all!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--the SEQUENCE IS:

1) "the 70ad events" (spelled out in Lk21:12-24a,b,__ [ONLY!!])
2) "the beginning OF BIRTH PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8... AND Lk21:8-11 DESCRIBED)

... because of what VERSE 12 TELLS US.

For the readers who are interested:

--additionally, "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11) which come SEQUENTIALLY *AFTER* [not *immediately* after, but SEQUENTIALLY after] the 70ad events (per Lk21:12's info) are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6;

--and Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c states that these are "things which must COME TO PASS *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" (NOT things which would unfold over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicists and others insist);

--also, Paul states that "the DOTL" TIME PERIOD ARRIVES exactly like [hosper] the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman... (i.e. the INITIAL BP / 1st SEAL = the START of the 7-yr period, is also the ARRIVAL of "the MAN OF SIN" [2Th2:9a[8a],] IN HIS TIME [2Th2:6... NOT v.4b!!])

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Jesus SAID, not divinewatermark, that He Returns ONLY ONE MORE TIME!

Are you calling Jesus a Liar?

And when Jesus Returns, does He only gather the Living?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ When Jesus was asked the Q in verse 3 (about "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]") is was BASED ON what He had ALREADY TALKED with them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50... when the ANGELS will "REAP" (gather OUT all things that offend... and collect ye FIRST the TARES... which is the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event!)


What does the word "REAP" mean, when it comes to HARVESTING??






[Mark 4:28 - "28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear."]

 

[Heaven_Bound]

You are skirting around the QUESTION, shows you have to lie and claim Jesus is LYING by saying He only Returns ONE MORE TIME + you have not answered does He gather only the Living Saints at his Second Coming?

Why are you avoiding these QUESTIONS?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are skirting around the QUESTION, shows you have to lie and claim Jesus is LYING by saying He only Returns ONE MORE TIME

I already answered this point ^ PAGES AGO (short memory, much??)


PRE-tribbers AGREE that He "RETURNS" only ONCE (the following SPEAKS OF THIS POINT):

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel)... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!!!)... THEN the MEAL [G347; aka the earthly MK age!]

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... (and its parallel)... "HAVE THOU AUTHORITY OVER 10 [and 5] CITIES" ("cities" are ON THE EARTH)





Biblically speaking ^ , the word "RETURN" speaks ONLY of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"); so I am [and HAD been] indeed addressing the VERY QUESTION you ASKED / IDEA you EXPRESSED. If you meant *something else*, then please use the biblical terminology commensurate with your intended meaning.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I already answered this point ^ PAGES AGO (short memory, much??)


PRE-tribbers AGREE that He "RETURNS" only ONCE.

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel)... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!!!)... THEN the MEAL [G347; aka the earthly MK age!]

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... (and its parallel)... "HAVE THOU AUTHORITY OVER 10 [and 5] CITIES" ("cities" are ON THE EARTH)





Biblically speaking, the word "RETURN" speaks ONLY of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"); so I am indeed addressing the VERY QUESTION you ASKED. If you meant *something else*, then please use the biblical terminology commensurate with your intended meaning.

Nowhere does the SECOND COMING show Jesus on the Ground, but ONLY IN THE CLOUDS, when He gathers His People.

So, we are Caught up to Him at his Second Coming!


So, where in Matthew 24 does it show Jesus is on Ground Earth when his Angels gather His People?
Where does it show more than ONE Coming?
And are those His Angels gather 100% LIVING?

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: NOT ON THE GROUND
^
Just like Paul describes in 2nd Thess concerning the Rapture!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Jesus spoke extensively ABOUT the Subject of the time of His RETURN (i.e. "SON OF MAN COMETH / COMING OF / COMES / SHALL COME" / ETC).

I already answered this point ^ PAGES AGO (short memory, much??)
PRE-tribbers AGREE that He "RETURNS" only ONCE (the following SPEAKS OF THIS POINT):
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel)... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!!!)... THEN the MEAL [G347; aka the earthly MK age!]
--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... (and its parallel)... "HAVE THOU AUTHORITY OVER 10 [and 5] CITIES" ("cities" are ON THE EARTH)

Biblically speaking ^ , the word "RETURN" speaks ONLY of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"); so I am [and HAD been] indeed addressing the VERY QUESTION you ASKED / IDEA you EXPRESSED. If you meant *something else*, then please use the biblical terminology commensurate with your intended meaning.

Here are the other posts (SOME in this very thread) where I ALREADY ADDRESSED the issue of His ONLY "RETURNING" ONCE (pre-tribbers AGREE with that point!):

Post #2627 (in the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739006



Post #2720 (in the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739971


[in THIS thread]

Post #893 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4754410

Post #896 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4754415


... and that's only in this month...

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Jesus spoke extensively ABOUT the Subject of the time of His RETURN (i.e. "SON OF MAN COMETH / COMING OF / COMES / SHALL COME" / ETC).



Here are the other posts (SOME in this very thread) where I ALREADY ADDRESSED the issue of His ONLY "RETURNING" ONCE (pre-tribbers AGREE with that point!):

Post #2627 (in the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739006



Post #2720 (in the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739971


[in THIS thread]

Post #893 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4754410

Post #896 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4754415


... and that's only in this month...

Who Cares!
Like YOU, that cannot answers my questions

So, where in Matthew 24 does it show Jesus is on Ground Earth when his Angels gather His People?
Where does it show more than ONE Coming?
And are those His Angels gather 100% LIVING?


IF YOU CANNOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS WITHOUT USING THE FALSE DOCTRINE PAMPHLETS, IT MEANS YOU ARE LYING!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nowhere does the SECOND COMING show Jesus on the Ground

So, you do not believe He "SHALL SO COME in LIKE MANNER *as* ye [His disciples] have seen Him traveling INTO Heaven" (Acts 1:11)... nor that His FEET will touch [literally "STAND UPON"] the mount of Olives (Zech14:4)??

I see.




Matthew 25:31-34 (speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming) says, "WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations [note: NATIONS are ON THE EARTH]: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Notice: There are NO "GOATS" (of the "NATIONS") "caught UP" IN THE AIR (nor the "CLOUDS") nor UP IN HEAVEN.

This context is an EARTHLY-LOCATED setting, upon His "RETURN" to the earth (just like its parallel verse [one of them], Matthew 19:28 re: how the "12" will "SIT ON 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"), that is, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age ["SON OF MAN cometh..."]

 

[Heaven_Bound]

So, you do not believe He "SHALL SO COME in LIKE MANNER *as* ye [His disciples] have seen Him traveling INTO Heaven" (Acts 1)... nor that His FEET will touch [literally "STAND UPON"] the mount of Olives (Zech14:4)??

I see.




Matthew 25:31-34 (speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming) says, "WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations [note: NATIONS are ON THE EARTH]: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Notice: There are NO "GOATS" (of the "NATIONS") "caught UP" IN THE AIR (nor the "CLOUDS") nor UP IN HEAVEN. This context is an EARTHLY-LOCATED setting, upon His "RETURN" to the earth (just like its parallel verse [one of them], Matthew 19:28 re: how the "12" will "SIT ON 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"), that is, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age ["SON OF MAN cometh..."]

I BELIEVE CHRIST's VERY WORDS [HE ONLY RETURNS ONE MORE TIME NOT TWICE] AND EVERYONE ELSE IS A LIAR!


THERE IS A REASON WHY YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS:

BECAUSE THEY DESTROY YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE!

I HAVE PROVEN MY POSITION AND I THANK THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR GIVING ME THIS QUESTION TO ASK.

So, where in Matthew 24 does it show Jesus is on Ground Earth when his Angels gather His People?
Where does it show more than ONE Coming?
And are those His Angels gather 100% LIVING?


This is THE question God put on my heart to ask and the one that is COMPLETELY AND UNDENIABLY BEING AVOIDED AT ALL COST
And are those, His Angels gather, 100% LIVING?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, where in Matthew 24 does it show Jesus is on Ground Earth when his Angels gather His People?

Again, Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with the prophecy spelled out in Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (re: the elect of Israel)... who had been SCATTERED (Luke 21:24 "and they shall be LED AWAY CAPTIVE into ALL THE NATIONS"... and note the "UNTIL" word in this verse / Subject [the 70ad events+ ASPECT of the Olivet Discourse]); and it says, "ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (just like ALL other PROPHECIES concerning THAT SUBJECT--you are DIVORCING THOSE PROPHECIES from this);

but you are taking certain passages APART from their CONTEXT (and setting) and are reading "SNATCH [IN THE AIR]" INTO them (which Subject these passages DO NOT COVER, AT ALL--NOWHERE in His Olivet Discourse is He covering the Subject of "our RAPTURE");





There were SOME THINGS that were necessary to remain UNDISCLOSED [/HIDDEN] *prior to* Jesus being put to death on the Cross (see 1Cor2:8)... which are the various points of "mystery" that are NOW DISCLOSED (in His Word / our NT) FOLLOWING the Cross; Jesus only alluded to some of these (AFTER His OLIVET DISCOURSE) in His later UPPER ROOM Discourse,

...like when He said to them/His disciples "I GO TO PREPARE a place for you" (which is a DISTINCT thing from saying, what He had said [regarding] to/ABOUT the Sheep [of the NATIONS-PL] in Matt25, "Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" said of OTHERS elsewhere!)] the foundation of the world" i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom) [the BLESSED contrasted with the CURSED, here]

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Again, Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with the prophecy spelled out in Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (re: the elect of Israel)... who had been SCATTERED (Luke 21:24 "and they shall be LED AWAY CAPTIVE into ALL THE NATIONS"... and note the "UNTIL" word in this verse / Subject [the 70ad events+ ASPECT of the Olivet Discourse]); and it says, "ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (just like ALL other PROPHECIES concerning THAT SUBJECT--you are DIVORCING THOSE PROPHECIES from this);

but you are taking certain passages APART from their CONTEXT (and setting) and are reading "SNATCH [IN THE AIR]" INTO them (which Subject these passages DO NOT COVER, AT ALL--NOWHERE in His Olivet Discourse is He covering the Subject of "our RAPTURE");





There were SOME THINGS that were necessary to remain UNDISCLOSED [/HIDDEN] *prior to* Jesus being put to death on the Cross (see 1Cor2:8)... which are the various points of "mystery" that are NOW DISCLOSED (in His Word / our NT) FOLLOWING the Cross; Jesus only alluded to some of these (AFTER His OLIVET DISCOURSE) in His later UPPER ROOM Discourse,

...like when He said to them/His disciples "I GO TO PREPARE a place for you" (which is a DISTINCT thing from saying, what He had said to the Sheep [of the NATIONS-PL] in Matt25, "Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" said of OTHERS elsewhere!)] the foundation of the world" i.e. the EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

Where does that answer proof of Two Comings, and proof that who are Gathered during Christ's Second Coming are 100% Alive!

You refuse to answer those questions.

Are you a LIAR and claiming Jesus is Lying, or Confused about how many times He Comes back?

PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE IS CLAIMING JESUS WAS MENTALLY CONFUSED THAT HE DID NOT KNOW HE WAS RETURNING MORE THAN ONE TIME LIKE HE CLAIMS!