Cessationism and Continuationism
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S
that does not work with me. I have answered it in my own life but I am not responsible for your belief.
there is an ongoing thread wherein that exact question is well answered
as it is, the fact you can say nothing happened, is the other side of the coin
you are simply expressing what others have taught you. I see nothing original in what you are saying or any reason to question the veracity of tongues today
why start a thread like this other than to promote those teachings?
there is an ongoing thread wherein that exact question is well answered
as it is, the fact you can say nothing happened, is the other side of the coin
you are simply expressing what others have taught you. I see nothing original in what you are saying or any reason to question the veracity of tongues today
why start a thread like this other than to promote those teachings?
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Again, you’re making assumptions that are not true. I didn’t lean this from MacArthur, I simply agree with him on it. Again, for something to be factual, there has to be implied reasoning which would stem from evidence of such. The Apostles obviously shown they were genuine and we have their writings and eyewitness accounts. I simply ask the same be presented now if it’s so wide spread.
K
Oh yes, they have come from somewhere, but they didn't want that authority or held accountable. I recall friends of my parents went to one such independent church. They turned on my parents when they just asked simple questions because then it was a brand new movement. She informed my mother "we have gone up to the mountain and we aren't coming down". rofl I believe it was the Vineyard movement.
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this is has been a problem from the start of the church and before. Very Good lesson God has given me on that very thing.
Do you remember Saul King what issue did he has? Well, he had a few but one was HE loved to be used in the Spirit with Prophesying kind of followed the move of God and turned it into a" movement " which caused Him to not follow God anymore Hmmm,
The Church has a bad habit of making a "movement " when God is moving. God is always moving, we are to follow and obey.
Saul did not do that, did he?
we make idolatry out of a gift and move of God instead of following the move of God as it is aligned with HIS word.
We are not to worship the move of God we are to worship the God who caused the move. How much more effective would those on the other side would be IF they had this understanding?
Do you remember Saul King what issue did he has? Well, he had a few but one was HE loved to be used in the Spirit with Prophesying kind of followed the move of God and turned it into a" movement " which caused Him to not follow God anymore Hmmm,
The Church has a bad habit of making a "movement " when God is moving. God is always moving, we are to follow and obey.
Saul did not do that, did he?
we make idolatry out of a gift and move of God instead of following the move of God as it is aligned with HIS word.
We are not to worship the move of God we are to worship the God who caused the move. How much more effective would those on the other side would be IF they had this understanding?
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In the Pauline epistles, Paul never really said when they begin nor end. Peter makes no reference and neither does John to these particular gifts. It’s not the central theme of the Gospel. Where in 2,000 years + of church history is there any indication this was still a continuous large doctrine? Do you still believe that prophet’s are among us today? If so, why would God still be giving a revelation after John died?
S
your other post about assumptions was to someone else...so again does not apply
for something to be factual, according to you and Mac, it has to be within your current experience
that is not ever the test of reality
we have the Bible and nowhere within the 66 books are we told tongues will disappear
when that which is perfect is come does not mean the canon of scripture even though you may believe that is a handy dandy application
applied reasoning...are you just kidding me? how about applied reality
for something to be factual, according to you and Mac, it has to be within your current experience
that is not ever the test of reality
we have the Bible and nowhere within the 66 books are we told tongues will disappear
when that which is perfect is come does not mean the canon of scripture even though you may believe that is a handy dandy application
applied reasoning...are you just kidding me? how about applied reality
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I'm sorry sir, but that is not true Paul did not have to say they started because Jesus said they would in Mark chapter 16 and in John chapter 14- 15 which was prophesied in Joel 2 that was fulfilled in Acts chapter 2, seen in Acts again Chapter 10, Acts 11:17
Acts 13:9, Acts 13:52,Acts 19:1-7
The Holy Spirit has never left and has been empowering in the Old Testament men and women as HE did in the New Testament as HE does today.
There is ONE reason why the gifts of the Holy Spirit and signs & wonders happen today do you know what that is?
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And everything you referenced happened in the 1st century. That’s my point. Thank you for clearfiing that. And I never said the Holy Spirit has left. I said certain gifts are not prevalent as they once were. I don’t know how you came that conclusion. Also, you didn’t answer my question about prophets. Are there still prophets among us?
excuse me so did salvation happen then, so did calling men to the ministry, and starting of a local fellowship, and waiting for the return of the Lord.
what is your point? Salvation not for today? the Holy Spirit who called men to serve the body of Christ doesn't happen today as it did then? Or is it man is self-called?
IF the same Holy Spirit is doing everything HE did during the first century and saving, calling people to the ministry, and as you have said can heal ( but you have to validate it) did not stop doing those things today but HIS empowering of the church and gifts are not for today. Wrong!
You did not answer my question :
There is ONE reason why the gifts of the Holy Spirit and signs & wonders happen today do you know what that is?
what is your point? Salvation not for today? the Holy Spirit who called men to serve the body of Christ doesn't happen today as it did then? Or is it man is self-called?
IF the same Holy Spirit is doing everything HE did during the first century and saving, calling people to the ministry, and as you have said can heal ( but you have to validate it) did not stop doing those things today but HIS empowering of the church and gifts are not for today. Wrong!
You did not answer my question :
There is ONE reason why the gifts of the Holy Spirit and signs & wonders happen today do you know what that is?
I did not see your question about prophets
Now The title "apostle" means one sent with a message, that still is happening by God as the Holy Spirit calls. One must to the work of one not just take up the title.
Prophets today yes,
The Bible taught Israel that anyone claiming the office of prophet was required to be 100% correct in ALL prophecies. If a supposed prophet was ever incorrect in their prophetic utterances - even just once - then they were to be put to death,. That would help today to stop false ones LOL. Just kidding.
anyway,
God is restoring the five-fold ministry of Ephesians 4:11: “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers.”1 Bible scholars differ on whether the gifts of pastor and teacher are separate in Ephesians 4 (yielding a total of five), or whether a better translation might be “... and some to be pastor-teachers” (yielding a total of four). Greek grammar would seem to dictate four, but the New Testament often discusses pastoral and teaching roles separately.
Historically, the adjective apostolic has been used to signify (1) church bodies that attempt to trace a succession of their clergy back to the original 12 apostles, as do the Catholic and Episcopal churches; (2) Oneness, or Jesus-Only, Pentecostal churches, who since the early 20th century have used the description “Apostolic Faith” (previously used by Trinitarian Pentecostals such as Charles F. Parham and William J. Seymour) to designate their distinctive doctrines; (3) churches that claim God has raised up present-day apostles in their midst (“New Apostolic” and “Fivefold” churches); or (4) churches, including most Protestant groups, that claim to be apostolic because they teach what the apostles taught; that is, New Testament doctrine. Therefore, most Christian denominations think of themselves, in one sense or another, as apostolic.
“Prophets” are found immediately after “apostles” in one list of ministry gifts (Ephesians 4:11). and their activity is closely linked to that of apostles throughout the New Testament. Paul had a high view of their role: “And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets... ” (1 Corinthians 12:28). Further, the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone” (Ephesians 2:20). Along with the apostles, prophets were complementary gifts to the foundational era of the church.
The historical accounts in the New Testament affirm these complementary roles. New Testament prophets first appeared by name in Acts when a group, apparently residing in Jerusalem, went to Antioch and one of their number, Agabus, accurately predicted the coming great famine (Acts 11:27–30). Antioch soon had its own group of resident prophets—Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (Paul) (Acts 13:1). Two other Jerusalem leaders and prophets were chosen to bear the council letter to Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, and along the way “said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers” (Acts 15:22,32).
Paul’s letters, written earlier than the Book of Acts, indicate the presence of prophets in the churches he had established as well as those he did not (e.g., the church at Rome). For example, he provided instruction on their activities in Corinth (1 Corinthians 14:29–32), saying their prophecies were to be tested by apostolic doctrine (1 Corinthians 14:37). Women prophets were active in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 11:5,6). The Romans were to exercise the gift of prophecy “in proportion” to their faith (Romans 12:6).
The Book of Revelation is apparently to be understood as a prophecy, thus according John prophetic status (Revelation 1:3). Revelation also says the church was to be on guard against false prophets, in this case “Jezebel,” who by their teaching and conduct perverted the apostolic gospel (Revelation 2:20).
These accounts make clear that (1) there were recognized groups of prophets in the early churches often closely associated with the apostles; (2) the apostles themselves (as Barnabas, Silas [both of whom on occasion appear to be recognized as apostles], Saul [Paul], and John) also functioned as prophets (Acts 13:1; 15:32; Revelation 1:3); (3) these prophets did travel on occasion from church to church; (4) both men and women were recognized as prophets; (5) prophets, while never appointed to ruling functions in their capacity as prophets like overseers/elders did exercise spiritual influence with the apostles and elders in the belief and practice of the Early Church; (6) the integrity of the prophet was maintained by authentic inspired utterance that was true to the Scriptures and apostolic doctrine; and (7) there is no provision for qualifying or appointing prophets as a part of a church leadership hierarchy for succeeding generations.
Now The title "apostle" means one sent with a message, that still is happening by God as the Holy Spirit calls. One must to the work of one not just take up the title.
Prophets today yes,
The Bible taught Israel that anyone claiming the office of prophet was required to be 100% correct in ALL prophecies. If a supposed prophet was ever incorrect in their prophetic utterances - even just once - then they were to be put to death,. That would help today to stop false ones LOL. Just kidding.
anyway,
God is restoring the five-fold ministry of Ephesians 4:11: “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers.”1 Bible scholars differ on whether the gifts of pastor and teacher are separate in Ephesians 4 (yielding a total of five), or whether a better translation might be “... and some to be pastor-teachers” (yielding a total of four). Greek grammar would seem to dictate four, but the New Testament often discusses pastoral and teaching roles separately.
Historically, the adjective apostolic has been used to signify (1) church bodies that attempt to trace a succession of their clergy back to the original 12 apostles, as do the Catholic and Episcopal churches; (2) Oneness, or Jesus-Only, Pentecostal churches, who since the early 20th century have used the description “Apostolic Faith” (previously used by Trinitarian Pentecostals such as Charles F. Parham and William J. Seymour) to designate their distinctive doctrines; (3) churches that claim God has raised up present-day apostles in their midst (“New Apostolic” and “Fivefold” churches); or (4) churches, including most Protestant groups, that claim to be apostolic because they teach what the apostles taught; that is, New Testament doctrine. Therefore, most Christian denominations think of themselves, in one sense or another, as apostolic.
“Prophets” are found immediately after “apostles” in one list of ministry gifts (Ephesians 4:11). and their activity is closely linked to that of apostles throughout the New Testament. Paul had a high view of their role: “And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets... ” (1 Corinthians 12:28). Further, the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone” (Ephesians 2:20). Along with the apostles, prophets were complementary gifts to the foundational era of the church.
The historical accounts in the New Testament affirm these complementary roles. New Testament prophets first appeared by name in Acts when a group, apparently residing in Jerusalem, went to Antioch and one of their number, Agabus, accurately predicted the coming great famine (Acts 11:27–30). Antioch soon had its own group of resident prophets—Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (Paul) (Acts 13:1). Two other Jerusalem leaders and prophets were chosen to bear the council letter to Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, and along the way “said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers” (Acts 15:22,32).
Paul’s letters, written earlier than the Book of Acts, indicate the presence of prophets in the churches he had established as well as those he did not (e.g., the church at Rome). For example, he provided instruction on their activities in Corinth (1 Corinthians 14:29–32), saying their prophecies were to be tested by apostolic doctrine (1 Corinthians 14:37). Women prophets were active in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 11:5,6). The Romans were to exercise the gift of prophecy “in proportion” to their faith (Romans 12:6).
The Book of Revelation is apparently to be understood as a prophecy, thus according John prophetic status (Revelation 1:3). Revelation also says the church was to be on guard against false prophets, in this case “Jezebel,” who by their teaching and conduct perverted the apostolic gospel (Revelation 2:20).
These accounts make clear that (1) there were recognized groups of prophets in the early churches often closely associated with the apostles; (2) the apostles themselves (as Barnabas, Silas [both of whom on occasion appear to be recognized as apostles], Saul [Paul], and John) also functioned as prophets (Acts 13:1; 15:32; Revelation 1:3); (3) these prophets did travel on occasion from church to church; (4) both men and women were recognized as prophets; (5) prophets, while never appointed to ruling functions in their capacity as prophets like overseers/elders did exercise spiritual influence with the apostles and elders in the belief and practice of the Early Church; (6) the integrity of the prophet was maintained by authentic inspired utterance that was true to the Scriptures and apostolic doctrine; and (7) there is no provision for qualifying or appointing prophets as a part of a church leadership hierarchy for succeeding generations.
Haven't liked MacArthur, ever. When he went all-in with Trump the proof was obvious.
"The apostolic age was unique!" - we cry from our 30,000-denomination, ultra-political, and fractured church position.
When there's trouble with the foundation you don't call a roofer. Sure, our foundation is Christ and there is no blemish in Him but understanding how the structure is built is not a function of Biblical exegesis but of spiritual impartation (we worship Him in spirit and in truth). Our faith is conveyed by hearing (not reading) the word of God.
Faith requires the sent ones. Yet, we are too addicted (especially in the U.S.) to self-rule to receive one with authority sent by God. Sent by a denomination? sure! Sent by a seminary? you bet! Sent by God? ##record scratch## Who gives you the authority to say that?!
The church is fractured because we have kicked out the work of the Holy Spirit except in ways in which He seems to support our ministry goals.
"The apostolic age was unique!" - we cry from our 30,000-denomination, ultra-political, and fractured church position.
When there's trouble with the foundation you don't call a roofer. Sure, our foundation is Christ and there is no blemish in Him but understanding how the structure is built is not a function of Biblical exegesis but of spiritual impartation (we worship Him in spirit and in truth). Our faith is conveyed by hearing (not reading) the word of God.
Faith requires the sent ones. Yet, we are too addicted (especially in the U.S.) to self-rule to receive one with authority sent by God. Sent by a denomination? sure! Sent by a seminary? you bet! Sent by God? ##record scratch## Who gives you the authority to say that?!
The church is fractured because we have kicked out the work of the Holy Spirit except in ways in which He seems to support our ministry goals.
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