The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Diakonos]

I really don't believe that the Holy Spirit will be completely taken out of the world......it would probably disintegrate.

If you're interested in studying this more, I suggest thinking of the atmosphere of the world during the tribulation as something similar to the OT. The Holy Spirit obviously still saves and works in people. But it is not the age of grace, where He "pours out [His] Spirit on all flesh".

 

[justbyfaith]

By being able to bear what happens. Escaping doesn't have to mean leaving the planet. An escape can happen while right in the very midst of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is meant for the church to suffer. Christ said Christians will suffer during that time. Revelation says the same things.

Is what happens in Revelation 9:1-10 from God or satan?

How will you be able to bear those things?

Is Jesus a wife-beater in your opinion?

 

[Diakonos]

It's still a fact that there were at least 12 Christians before Pentecost.

That is the idea I have challenged with many verse-accompanies responses.
For the sake of finding common ground (which is always what we should seek), I'm fine referring to them as "believers". Are you ok with that term?

Let me know when you have your definition and supporting verses

 

[soberxp]

What should come will come,Don't worry about tomorrow.

Bible says save he that had the mark,

If God wants you to escape, you will escape whether you don't want to. If God wants you to experience the exercise of Great Tribulation, you will experience it.

Rev 13:15, And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16, And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17, And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 13:8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If you are alive on the earth during the GT, you are going to worship the beast and will be killed if you won't worship his image also.

This indicates to me that those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are those who will have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the GT begins.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus told me to pray that I might be able to escape those things that shall come to pass; and there is the distinct possibility that He means what is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. I pray what He told me to pray in light of that understanding; and I believe that He will answer in the affirmative according to the spirit of what I am praying; that I might be able to escape those things that are going to come upon the earth in a pre-tribulation rapture.

I believe that because I am praying according to His will, that I have the things that I am asking for (1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24).

The Lord in no place says that the only escape has to do with being able to bear what is coming.

In Revelation 3:10, we have the following words,

Rev 3:10, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Of course this is written to those who persevere in Philadelphia.

 

[Absolutely]

Nope. The DOTL starts at the 6th seal, per Revelation 6 - it’s the time of God’s wrath. It occurs immediately after the great tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Cross reference the signs of the 6th seal, the signs immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24, and the signs of the DOTL in Isaiah 13.

The DOTL occurs at the return of Christ. Matthew 24 is a play-by-play chronological discourse about the end times. The great tribulation, return of Christ, the rapture, and the day of the Lord are all discussed there.

Then you are describing eloquently rev 14:14, is ,in fact, the DOTL

 

[Absolutely]

Nope. The DOTL starts at the 6th seal, per Revelation 6 - it’s the time of God’s wrath. It occurs immediately after the great tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Cross reference the signs of the 6th seal, the signs immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24, and the signs of the DOTL in Isaiah 13.

The DOTL occurs at the return of Christ. Matthew 24 is a play-by-play chronological discourse about the end times. The great tribulation, return of Christ, the rapture, and the day of the Lord are all discussed there.

Nope
Jesus said tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor ever will.

Your model has the first half of the gt as trib that is worse than the second half.

That's what happens when you try to make that trib vs wrath false dynamic some pillar in the postrib rapture doctrine.
The entire 7 yrs is the great trib.

 

[Absolutely]

We are told to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture in Luke 21:36.

I do not believe that Jesus would tell us to pray for something and then say "no" in answer to that prayer...it is obviously a prayer according to His will.

See 1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24.

Postribbers do not and can not pray that.

.....and boast about it.

 

[Absolutely]

Rev 13:15, And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16, And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17, And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 13:8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If you are alive on the earth during the GT, you are going to worship the beast and will be killed if you won't worship his image also.

This indicates to me that those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are those who will have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the GT begins.

I bring this up all the time.

They wont go there.

They simply omit it

 

[Runningman]

Nope
Jesus said tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor ever will.

Your model has the first half of the gt as trib that is worse than the second half.

That's what happens when you try to make that trib vs wrath false dynamic some pillar in the postrib rapture doctrine.
The entire 7 yrs is the great trib.

Tribulation is not the wrath. That clears it up.

 

[cv5]

I would add that the disciples BECAME the Bride in Matt 26:27-28, when they all received the 3rd Passover cup, the cup of betrothal, which was the acceptance of the marriage contract. The Bride price was paid at The Crucifixion by the shedding of the blood of Christ. Then 50 days later at Pentecost, the "Arrabon", the down payment the earnest of the gift of the Holy Spirit was given.

I see the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as confirmation of the covenant. Is this the precise moment of the beginning of the Church per se? This is arguable.

Thinking about it....I do believe the Church DID start at Pentecost. Only Spirit imbued Christians are genuine.
As far as I can tell, Judas also received the 3rd Passover cup. And he was not redeemed.

The Church starts at Pentecost, ends at the Rapture. Eschatologically, a very tidy package.

 

[cv5]

Tribulation is not the wrath. That clears it up.

By your own standard, this wrath begins BEFORE your supposed 6th-seal mid-trib 3-1/2 year start point.

Rev 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Rev 6:17
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


The Fifth Seal--Martyrs

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[DavidTree]

Postribbers do not and can not pray that.

.....and boast about it.

I pray those blessings but i do no boast - such boasting is a false hope.

You still do not understand what the Great Tribulation is that is coming upon the world and even now has begun.

You are still in doubt as to why the Lord said "as in the days of Noah, married and given in marriage...."

 

[cv5]

Nope. The DOTL starts at the 6th seal, per Revelation 6 - it’s the time of God’s wrath. It occurs immediately after the great tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Cross reference the signs of the 6th seal, the signs immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24, and the signs of the DOTL in Isaiah 13.

The DOTL occurs at the return of Christ. Matthew 24 is a play-by-play chronological discourse about the end times. The great tribulation, return of Christ, the rapture, and the day of the Lord are all discussed there.

Furthermore....the Rapture of the Church cannot be shoehorned into Daniel's 70th week tribulation. Just doesn't fit. And both the Church and Rapture are mysteries not prophesied in the OT and the Rapture has no preceding signs, while Daniel's 70th week is by far the most prophesied time in all of the Bible.....FILLED with signs.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Rev 13:8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If your name (is not) Written in the Book of Life, You Will worship the Beast!

Which means, (IF) your name is WRITTEN in the Book of Life, You [will not] worship the Beast!

But clearly, BOTH PEOPLE, name Written/not Written in the Book of Life, will be equally present when the Beast is here!

 

[cv5]

The False Teaching of what happens at the Rapture.

I believe people have been taught through preaching, books, videos etc a wrong view of what happens at the Rapture.

This false teaching says that when people are caught away to meet the Lord others will see them rise in the air, and great devastation will happen. Planes will fall out of the sky as Christian pilots are taken away, plus cars and buses, trains etc will all crash because their drivers were believers and were caught away.

People are told that unbelievers will be shocked and horrified as they realise they have been `left behind.`

None of this is a true picture, I believe, of what will really happen at the rapture.

The Truth of what will happen at the Rapture.

God`s word says that we will see that Day, (of the Lord) approaching and thus get together more.

`...exhorting, (encouraging and warning) one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

I believe the Holy Spirit will be stirring our spirits expectantly so that we know the time is very close.

`To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear...` (Heb. 9: 28)

In the world people will think WW 3 is happening. The Russian Federation plus Iran, Ethiopia and Libya, (Ez. 38: 1 - 5) will be brought down by God to the mountains of Israel for judgment. The amassing of those troops will be very plain to see. Even now there is movement in those nations. People of the world will be looking at their phones, TV, etc in great fear of a nuclear World War.

The Lockdowns due to a supposed pandemic will keep people separate from others. Most will only be concerned with getting supplies, (which may be limited) and returning home.

Then when those who are eagerly waiting and looking for the Lord are taken, their bodies will be changed and there will be nothing left to indicate where they are. If some people do notice that so and so is not around there are many reasons for that - gone into a covid quarantine camp, visiting relatives, gone on holiday, etc etc.

Have you ever thought about this?

Revelation 4:1
After these things I looked and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice that I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here and I will show you things which must take place after this."

"After this": after the Church age, the age of Grace.

"Come up here": a foreshadowing of the Rapture of the Church. Typified by the 24 elders, who now appear in chapter 4.

Chapter 5 the Lamb takes the scroll, witnessed by the 24 elders.

Chapter 6 the seal judgments begin.

The Church is absent from chapters 6 through 18.

The wife, His Bride reappears in chapter 19, arrayed in white wedding garments, prepared for the wedding supper. The Second Coming occurs next. Nothing whatsoever is mentioned about a rapture in chapter 19 (Because the Second Coming and the rapture are mutually exclusive of course!). It has already occurred in chapter 4.....the result of which is the end of the Church age, and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, the DOTL.

 

[cv5]

Rev 13:8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If your name (is not) Written in the Book of Life, You Will worship the Beast!

Which means, (IF) your name is WRITTEN in the Book of Life, You [will not] worship the Beast!

But clearly, BOTH PEOPLE, name Written/not Written in the Book of Life, will be equally present when the Beast is here!

True. However these would be the tribulation saints, the 144,000, and any other of the elect who are chosen to believe during the time of the tribulation.

The Church is long gone per Revelation 4:1.

 

[cv5]

If you're interested in studying this more, I suggest thinking of the atmosphere of the world during the tribulation as something similar to the OT. The Holy Spirit obviously still saves and works in people. But it is not the age of grace, where He "pours out [His] Spirit on all flesh".

The thing is, 2Thes 2:6-7 is quite specific, stating that the Holy Spirit's restraint is removed.....not His entire presence, influence or work.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

True. However these would be the tribulation saints, the 144,000, and any other of the elect who are chosen to believe during the time of the tribulation.

The Church is long gone per Revelation 4:1.

According to You?

Not according to the Word of God!

 

[Absolutely]

Tribulation is not the wrath. That clears it up.

The 4 horsemen are sent from heaven and cause unprecedented death and destruction to kick off the great tribulation.

Not sent from hell. Sent from heaven.
That clears that up.

God used other nations to pass judgement on israel.
Indirectly acting in wrath.
God directly judged them also.
David was punished in Gods wrath more than once.

That wrath/ vs trib argument has some merit but trying to frame it to fit a doctrine ushers in new meanings for " great tribulation"

Jesus said" such as the world has never seen nor ever will again.
Then postribbers correct Jusus with ,"well not quite Jesus, because we call time out for "wrath".