Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Heaven_Bound said:
I've read everything, but documenting John as Bishop and Polycarp as Leaders is nowhere connected to calling Jesus as wise as a 50 year old or old man.

What's funny about Irenaeus, his writings and the writings of other Church Fathers never include a pre-trib rapture. They had access to the original writings and still never once proposed that False Doctrine.

To me, that shouts pre-trib rapture = Demonic Doctrine of satan!
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No you have not read everything.
Omitting context and verses is so blatantly reckless ,it is beyond honesty
 
Heaven_Bound said:
No, what you desperately are ignoring, the CHURCH FATHERS, had access to the Original Copies and Close to the Second Copies and not one single Church Father claims the false Doctrine of pre-trib rapture.

They had Access to the TRUTH and here you are claiming to know the TRUTH they had access to.

You are WRONG so WRONG even the Church Fathers prove you are WRONG!
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Heaven_Bound said:
No, what you desperately are ignoring, the CHURCH FATHERS, had access to the Original Copies and Close to the Second Copies and not one single Church Father claims the false Doctrine of pre-trib rapture.

They had Access to the TRUTH and here you are claiming to know the TRUTH they had access to.

You are WRONG so WRONG even the Church Fathers prove you are WRONG!
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You can not finish a thought.
I blew your margaret macdonald into oblivion.

You divert away.
Like a boss!

Very disingenuous.
 
Absolutely said:
You can not finish a thought.
I blew your margaret macdonald into oblivion.

You divert away.
Like a boss!

Very disingenuous.
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Brother, you could not prove an innocent man innocent.

The Church Fathers had the best Version of the New Testament and knew pre-trib rapture was False.

You have a Translation of a Translation and a Woman's Dream that Darby heard and was even labelled a Heretic and forced to Leave his own native country over.

I would never listen to you if you were the last person on Earth!
 
Charlie24 said:
The beast is the anti-christ. How can anyone take the mark of the beast until he comes and demands that it be taken?

The pre-trib view states that ALL the tribulation saints went into the tribulation lost and came out saved.

They refused the mark of the beast and accepted Christ at some point during the 7 years.

Can you prove from scripture this is incorrect?
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What you justs said is completely made up.
Post one scripture that clearly states "ALL the tribulation saints went into the tribulation lost"
 
Heaven_Bound said:
Pre-Tribbers,
you do realize this pre-trib Doctrine is only 200 years old...meaning, Jesus did not teach it, the Apostles did not teach it, the Church Fathers did not teach it, but a Woman in Scotland had a Dream and John Darby made that Dream into a False Doctrine?
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That young lady was post tribulation, not pre-trib. Have you ever read her vision? Pre-trib existed even in the time of Paul. It was a misinterpretation of one of his letters that started the pre-trib idea where Christ could come at any time before the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin took place.
 
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ewq1938 said:
That young lady was post tribulation, not pre-trib. Have you ever read her vision? Pre-trib existed even in the time of Paul. It was a misinterpretation of one of his letters that started the pre-trib idea where Christ could come at any time before the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin took place.
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We have Letters from John's Disciples like Polycarp and Others that claim Christ only returns one more time. The Polycarp Letter is around 100 A.D. and he oversaw the Churches Paul set up and he clearly did not believe in Pre-Trib Rapture.

I did read about her Vision and never claimed she was pre-Trib. I said Darby heard of her Dream and he began the idea of Pre-Trib Rapture.

But I have no doubts like Today, that Some in the First Century most likely misunderstood Paul and believed incorrectly.
 
Heaven_Bound said:
I did read about her Vision and never claimed she was pre-Trib. I said Darby heard of her Dream and he began the idea of Pre-Trib Rapture.
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But her dream is very post-trib so that doesn't make sense. Read this:


Dave MacPherson wrote a book that blamed Margaret McDonald for starting the pre-trib doctrine. In the book he presented Margaret’s vision, except he removed two parts of it. The two removed sentences were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept". Obviously her vision is post-trib with the antichrist persecuting the Church.

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

“The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.
Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.
Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.”
 
ewq1938 said:
But her dream is very post-trib so that doesn't make sense. Read this:


Dave MacPherson wrote a book that blamed Margaret McDonald for starting the pre-trib doctrine. In the book he presented Margaret’s vision, except he removed two parts of it. The two removed sentences were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept". Obviously her vision is post-trib with the antichrist persecuting the Church.

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

“The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.
Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.
Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.”
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Now that is interesting. So Darby did not hear about the Vision, but it is reported that he did. Good find!
 
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That makes it worse, because the Bible itself proves the Pre-Trib Rapture is False, but here we have people not relying upon the Word of God but making up lies against Darby.
 
Heaven_Bound said:
Now that is interesting. So Darby did not hear about the Vision, but it is reported that he did. Good find!
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Right, so he claimed to have come up with Pre-trib by himself. There were others that also taught pre-trib before Darby. From that same link:

"By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn’t taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time. ” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza.""
 
Heaven_Bound said:
[...] and Others that claim Christ only returns one more time.
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To be clear again for the readers, Pre-tribbers also believe that Jesus only "RETURNS" one more time

...(as I mentioned in a previous recent post).
Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 [and its parallel passage] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).



No one here (that I am aware of) disagrees with this... that He will only "RETURN" once.

Even we Pre-tribbers believe this. = )





[not sure about "Abs"... coz he has a number of unique ideas :D --"partial-rapture theory," multiple raptures, "Millennial Exclusion theory" for any member of "the Church which is His body" etc etc...]
 
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