Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[FreeGrace2]

I guess the "immortal soul" crowd thinks dead Saints in heaven have no choice but to come at the beck and call of demons when summoned by them, right? And, you choose not to believe the wisest man who ever lived when he said "the dead know not anything"?

IT WAS A DEMONIC FAMILIAR SPIRIT IMPERSONATING SAMUEL.

Preposterous!! The Bible SAYS it was Samuel talking. And he was talking to King Saul, who was still living. Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. If there is such a thing as soul sleep, was Samuel inviting him to a slumber party, like Jesus must have done with the thief on the cross?

Where do you get your material for all this made up stuff?

 

[gb9]

Preposterous!! The Bible SAYS it was Samuel talking. And he was talking to King Saul, who was still living. Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. If there is such a thing as soul sleep, was Samuel inviting him to a slumber party, like Jesus must have done with the thief on the cross?

Where do you get your material for all this made up stuff?

he is a follower of ellen white.

if you know much about and her beliefs, you will see where he gets this stuff from....

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's why I pray for the "immortal soul" crowd ... who think God is worse than the vilest mass murdering despot ever to grace the topside of the Earth by their belief that He will torment the wicked for all eternity

One of the most deceiving lies of all time is that unbelievers will pay for their sin in eternity.

Rev 19:20 and 20:10 clearly show that the lake of fire is for both humans and fallen angels (Matt 25:41). And Rev 20:11-15 shows WHY unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. Their names are not in the Book of Life.

What this means is they refused to receive the free gift of eternal life. Therefore, they send themselves to the lake of fire. And will have an eternity to think about it.

Repent from such Religion of Exclusivity that is Eternal Torment, Luciferian Worship, Predestination, etc.

Oh, just knock it off. Scripture is clear. There is no soul sleep and no annihilation of souls.

Those are just fantasies that the devil has deceived a large portion of Christianity. Same as the fallacy of loss of salvation.

 

[kleronomos]

You don't understand scriptures,

Are you sure it is me? That's a really bold statement right there. What if I actually do? What if it is GODS TRUTH and that's what you said about it??

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ever read Hebrews 12:1 about the Cloud of Witnesses from Chapter 10 and 11 who is "watching us?"

How can they watch us, if their Soul/Spirit is still in the Grave?

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

Wow. The list just keeps growing.

1. Samuel came back from Sheol and spoke with King Saul, and told him he would join Samuel the next day.
2. Paul taught that one is absent from the body or at home with the Lord in 2 Cor 5.
3. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for vengeance.
4. Luke 16 is an account by Jesus of life in the afterlife in the OT. Abraham was in Paradise and spoke with a rich man in Torments.
5. And now Heb 12:1.

All the other side has is symbolism which allows them to make up whatever they need to support their ideas.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"...and He sent and SIGNIFIED it by the hand of His angel unto His servant John". "SIGNIFY" = "SIGN IFY:, or "given in signs". So, no presumption on my part, thank you

Look, the fact is that the "immortal soul" crowd EVEN IN THEIR ERROR should recognize "souls under the altar" is a symbol because they themselves claim at death, the soul flies off to heaven or goes burning in hell... never said to go hanging out under any altars.

The vision by John of martyred souls "under altars" occurs IN HEAVEN. You need to read much more carefully.

You're just trying to make it seem like our position is that souls just "go hanging out" at bars or something.

 

[Evmur]

True, but since there's no punctuation in the Greek, which verb does the noun "today" modify? Is it (A) "I say" or (B) "shalt be"?
If we place a comma after "today" and make it modify "I say" which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- this completely harmonizes with Scripture.

If we place a comma before "today" and make it modify "shalt be" - as is popularly claimed - which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- it causes total confusion.

It's interesting that the word "sameron" ("today") in Scripture precedes the verb it modifies only 50 times, but follows the verb that it modifies 170 time, so the majority use strengthens the argument for "today" modifying "I say", though this fact is ancillary seeing the maintenance of Scriptural harmony alone warrants rejecting the popular view.

dear me ...desperados here

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Error alert. No, the "soul" is the inner being, and NOT the body. The body is material, the soul is immaterial. That's the difference.

I'll see your "error alert" and raise you "Serpent lie alert"

It seems you have no idea what you are talking about.

Genesis 2:7 KJV PLAINLY states a SOUL is the whole being, comprised of its parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.

You are misreading Gen 2:7. Adam was a living being AFTER God breathed the soul into him.

While it refers to the whole Person, it also refers to the "life" of the Person which, again, exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

No, it doesn't refer to the "whole person" which includes the body. When a soul leaves a body, the "person" is dead. James 2:26

Eph 3:16 - That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

I have no idea how you would symbolize 'inner man' but it is a direct reference to the immaterial part of a person; the soul.

But you are free to fantasize.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I actually got goosebumps....

yeah me too when I read what the church is meant to be what a glorious thing we look away from

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible teaches nothing of the kind.

If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could take our place and pay our penalty is that HE BE ENTERNALLY TORMENTED.

What you seem to completely miss is that the "wages of sin" has already been paid in full by Jesus on the cross. So your whole premise is faulty. 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19.

The "death" that results from sin is the "second death", which is another term for the lake of fire. What dies the second time is the body of the unbeliveer, which will be raised from the grave to attend the GWT judgment, and then cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible says clearly that the 2 beasts from Rev 13 will be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the battle of Armageddon, and after the Millennial reign of King Jesus, Satan and his angelic followers will be cast there too.

Rev 20:10 refutes all of your opinions.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[kleronomos]

How much un-repented of sin WOULD the 'church' carry UP INTO HEAVEN in any one given moment?

2 billion people. Here comes the Lord,

RAPTURE, RIGHT THIS MOMENT.

ANY ONE WITHOUT SIN? Anyone miss the RAPTURE?


IF YOU DID, best start figuring out what staying is all about so you don't get caught without enough oil to see yourself through...

OH and why it is different to be 'caught up' at THE LAST TRUMP?
BECAUSE Judgment is simple. Separating the sheep from the goats so to speak is easy. The ones who have OVERCOME, not been deceived, remained faithful have their lamps STILL lit, having taken the EXTRA oil needed. They have not worshipped the image and have hot gone to buy and sell.

They have NO MARK and a lit lamp. THEY have endured to the end. They have been afflicted and persecuted and tried and they DIDN'T FAIL. They passed. Their judgment is easy.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Wow. The list just keeps growing.

1. Samuel came back from Sheol and spoke with King Saul, and told him he would join Samuel the next day.
2. Paul taught that one is absent from the body or at home with the Lord in 2 Cor 5.
3. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for vengeance.
4. Luke 16 is an account by Jesus of life in the afterlife in the OT. Abraham was in Paradise and spoke with a rich man in Torments.
5. And now Heb 12:1.

All the other side has is symbolism which allows them to make up whatever they need to support their ideas.

There are songs about the Great Cloud of Witnesses. Hebrews just puts it out there and still many do their best to ignore it. But, how can Old Testament People we read about be in the Clouds of Heaven and Watch Us if there was no separation of Body/Spirit at their physical death?

Amazing that people are trying to call the Holy Word of God a Liar.

 

[kleronomos]

yeah me too when I read what the church is meant to be what a glorious thing we look away from

Mystery of iniquity. Always worked harder, always more obedient.... "never drink wine'


Yes, it makes me sad.

 

[kleronomos]

Its not about the Judgment Trumps, its about the Feast of Trumps which always ENDED the Harvest, the problem is you were led down a wrong path by people who shouldn't be teaching the bible.

AGAIN, are you sure you want to make those kinds of statements? WHERE DOES GOD WRITE WHAT YOU ARE CALLING A TRUTH?

That is depending on the wisdom of men. IF IT IS NOT, GIVE ME SCRIPTURE, not conjecture, THEN we'll talk.

 

[kleronomos]

Look, the fact is that the "immortal soul" crowd EVEN IN THEIR ERROR should recognize "souls under the altar" is a symbol because they themselves claim at death, the soul flies off to heaven or goes burning in hell... never said to go hanging out under any altars.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What kind of symbol is this?

 

[posthuman]

The vision by John of martyred souls "under altars" occurs IN HEAVEN. You need to read much more carefully.

speaking of that -- may i add to your list?

The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”​

But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”​

And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.​

(Acts 10:9-16)

​

Peter saw every kind of animal, creeping thing & bird of the air descend from heaven.
they were in heaven; they were let down to him; they return to heaven

so do we say God is a liar? does God give lying visions?
or do we accept that He resurrects every one of these innocent living souls who wait with earnest expectation for the revealing of the sons of God?

​

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Mystery of iniquity. Always worked harder, always more obedient.... "never drink wine'


Yes, it makes me sad.

yes I think t he issue became what people were preaching

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course the truth was given to the church by Jesus

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truth of doctrine is so very important it’s what leads us true as false doctrine leads astray Truth matters because what we believe becomes our motivating faith if only we placed it all in Jesus and the truth of his word !!!

 

[kleronomos]

No, the Church has Jews like Paul, Peter and Stephen, etc. etc.


Its not about the Judgment Trumps, its about the Feast of Trumps which always ENDED the Harvest, the problem is you were led down a wrong path by people who shouldn't be teaching the bible.

The TRUMP Pail spoke of was the ENDING of the Harvest (Church Age).

I keep hearing you say it and all I want is to hear GOD SAY IT. Where is it written? Right now you have be going under the law here (feasts) but not there (grace) , under grace here,(church) but not there (Jews) and this doesn't come across as arbitrary to you?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Wow. The list just keeps growing.

1. Samuel came back from Sheol and spoke with King Saul, and told him he would join Samuel the next day.
2. Paul taught that one is absent from the body or at home with the Lord in 2 Cor 5.
3. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for vengeance.
4. Luke 16 is an account by Jesus of life in the afterlife in the OT. Abraham was in Paradise and spoke with a rich man in Torments.
5. And now Heb 12:1.

All the other side has is symbolism which allows them to make up whatever they need to support their ideas.

Luke 20 explains this pretty clearly.

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

These Verses are before Christ's Death-Burial-Resurrection, and Verse 37 states, "Now that the Dead are Raised." So from the Transfiguration with Moses, it appears Moses physically died, but is still Spiritually Alive and was seen by Peter and others as Witness that Moses is Living.

 

[DavidTree]

That's why I pray for the "immortal soul" crowd ... who think God is worse than the vilest mass murdering despot ever to grace the topside of the Earth by their belief that He will torment the wicked for all eternity

Repent from such Religion of Exclusivity that is Eternal Torment, Luciferian Worship, Predestination, etc.

AGREE = Repent from your pride and speaking against the Word of God.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.